ARE NON BELIEVERS LOWER IN MORAL CHARACTER THAN CHRISTIANS? Peanut Gallery.

[tiglathpileser]

I've noticed non believers seem to have good morals. Teach their kids how to behave very well. Also they don't even talk about it much. Also my non believer friend tells me. That some people wont allow their kids to play with her kids, when they find out. That's very Christian of them. Also the reason she doesn't believe in God is because of all wars over religion. She also notice Christian don't set the good example they are supposed to set. I been noticing the Christians I know are bad examples too. At least they claim they are.

The problem with your post is that it is full of wild generalisations which can be applied in some cases but not all.

For instance, you say that you have noticed non believers have good morals. That is not proven by the prison population as most of those who are in prison are non believers.

P.S. Great looking nephews.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Results which are avowedly informal and nonprofessional, so I read them for about as long as it took me to move my finger to the close button

You have to be careful when you make statements like that as I have read comments by atheists like "most christians believe..." when I know for a fact that they don't.

And another one is "Atheists do not say God does not exist" when they say it all the time.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Why do You think I'm joking? This really is my experience of devout Christians. I have a hard time remembering any non-believers being like that.

Your post is suspect as you have based it on the above claim. We can all say something is this or that because that is what I experience but the truth is, overall nothing is proven by what an individual experiences other than that is his personal experience.

Your claim can be wiped out in one sentence as I know of a christian couple in Mozambique who have rescued thousands of orphans from a life of starvation and destitution. They have opened orphanages to care for them and although they have met stiff opposition from muslims, they are still soldiering on whilst there are orphans on the street. The government would rather focus on the fact that they are christians rather than look at their policies which are creating orphans in the first place.

 

[tiglathpileser]

LOL

Christians never use foul language? I hope you're joking. I don't know about "seducing" but my atheist grandfather and Catholic grandmother were married for decades until death did they part -- so yeah, it's definitely possible, and they were in love and happy too. I know many Christians who also mock atheists. Not only that but they'll tell us we're headed to hell, not only because of a state of affairs they cannot control but revel in the idea of us roasting there. Many Christians also view atheist as something that is unreal, that we "know" deep in our hearts there is a God and we're just being defiant brats or because we just want to sin all the time.

I challenge anyone here to think of a moral action performed or moral statement made by a believer that could not be made by a non-believer. Our non-belief does not blind us from taking into account human suffering. In fact, it may even drive us to more compassion and empathy.

Just a small point. If that is the case, why is it that in my country there are 25 major charities. 18 of them are christian, not one of them are atheist.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I'd love to hear a response to Christopher Hitchens' challenge:

Can anyone think of a moral action performed, or moral statement made, by a believer that could not be made by a non-believer?​

That is easy. Ask anyone of the people standing outside abortion clinics praying for the mothers and children if they are atheists?​

 

[tiglathpileser]

Agreed.


Do "True Christians (TM)" even exist? I mean, if Jesus is the benchmark for perfect moral character, how many Christians actually achieve and maintain this benchmark for the remainder of their lives?

I'm guessing the statistics would be about 0%.

Can I suggest your guess is a guess and is wrong. It only shows that you do not understand what being a christian is all about so let me clear the air for you.

Once you are born again you are perfect because Christ is perfect and we take on his nature. That does not mean we ARE perfect in an instant. As Paul said I press towards the mark of the price of the high calling of God..." In other words a standard has been set and our job it attain it through the grace of God.

This is known as sanctification which is explained as follows.....

Question: "What is sanctification? What is the definition of Christian sanctification?"

Answer: Sanctification is God’s will for us (1 Thessalonians 4:3). The word sanctification is related to the word saint; both words have to do with holiness. To “sanctify” something is to set it apart for special use; to “sanctify” a person is to make him holy.

Jesus had a lot to say about sanctification in John 17. In verse 16 the Lord says, “They are not of the world, even as I am not of it,” and this is before His request: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth” (verse 17). In Christian theology, sanctification is a state of separation unto God; all believers enter into this state when they are born of God: “You are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30, ESV). The sanctification mentioned in this verse is a once-for-ever separation of believers unto God. It is a work God performs, an intricate part of our salvation and our connection with Christ (Hebrews 10:10). Theologians sometimes refer to this state of holiness before God as “positional” sanctification; it is the same as justification.

And justification is.....

Justification is a legal act, wherein God deems the sinner righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness. Unlike Sanctification, Justification is not a process, but is a one-time act, complete and definitive.

Double imputation
God's act of justification may be seen to involve a double imputation. On the one hand, the sin and guilt of the believer are imputed to Christ. On the other hand, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer, whereby he is declared righteous.

Forgiveness and adoption
Justification is seen in two parts: (1) The sinner is forgiven on the basis of Christ's righteousness. The pardon does not merely cover sins already committed – but reaches to all sins. (2) The sinner is adopted as a child of God. God places them within his household, giving them all the rights of heirs and children (Rom 8:17, 1 Peter 1:4).

Until you understand justification and sanctification you won't understand christianity. It is so important to understand that christianity is all about what Jesus did, not what we do.

 

[tiglathpileser]

While this was a very interesting debate, I think it only emphasizes the main point of difference between the two sides: the completely different view of what it means to be "moral".

While in David's post there were such points as "gambling", "drunkenness","looking at inappropriate contentography" and "profanity in public", bhsmte repeatedly cited "nationalism", "gender equality", "torture" and "authoritarian[ism]"

I for one know which values I support.

This is an interesting take on moral using synonyms......

immoral. ɪˈmɒr(ə)l/ adjective

1. not conforming to accepted standards of morality. "unseemly and immoral behaviour"
   synonyms: unethical, bad, morally wrong, wrongful, wicked,evil, unprincipled, unscrupulous, dishonourable,dishonest, unconscionable, iniquitous,disreputable, fraudulent, corrupt, depraved, vile,villainous, nefarious, base, unfair, underhand,devious.

Could not your definition and christian definitions both be covered?

 

[tiglathpileser]

Is there a difference in believing in religion and believing that there is a God? Are they the same thing? If they are not the same thing, then what is a NONBELIEVER? Someone that doesn't believe in religion or someone that doesn't believe in God? I don't believe in religion because of its negative energy that it creates. And God won't be associated with this negative energy. God tells you not to judge in the bible. But here you are judging! How far must we all go to battle religions against GOD's will. I respect everyone's view of how a soul should be. But religion doesn't control my soul. God guides our souls to see if our souls are good and at peace. Is your soul at peace and are you able to accept people's differences no matter what their adversity?

No, they are not the same thing as the God we are talking about here is specific to the christian faith. Religion can be applied to any set of beliefs as in the atheistic religion. They deny it is a religion but it is very clear they have a set of beliefs one of which is God doesn't exist. In my country and no doubt yours, certain sports are a religion to a lot of people.

 

[tiglathpileser]

Wow,

So the things you can mark against non believers are foul language and not respecting your myths. Am I permitted to mark up the same against Christians for not respecting the Father Odin?

And in my experience 99% of Christians show less respect for scripture than I do as they twist the meaning to fir their biases. Disbelieving I have no such need and am more prone to read if for what it actually says.

Yes I swear, but compared to the vast majority of Christians I do not lie. I like others have learned that if a businessman says he is Christian he is not to be trusted.

And why is it that Christians are grossly overrepresented in the prison population?

I don't know where you are getting your information from but the fact is that christians are NOT overrepresented in prison populations. That is throw away line to bolster one's claims.

Where they are overrepresented are in countries where the government is atheist or muslim as in Iran where you can be jailed for telling someone about Jesus and North Korea where you can be jailed for owning a bible.

As for this claim.....And in my experience 99% of Christians show less respect for scripture than I do as they twist the meaning to fir[sic] their biases. Bearing in mind that there are 2.3 billion christians on earth, I doubt if you know 99% of them. I doubt if you know 9% of them.

And again......Yes I swear, but compared to the vast majority of Christians I do not lie. So what you are saying is that you know the majority of christians? How many christians have you taken the time to talk to in Africa?

 

[tiglathpileser]

You would be mistaken. Most atheists in the United States were once Christian and many have studied the bible quite extensively including myself.

In fact, the Pew research company did an analysis a few years back and measured the religious knowledge of; certain Christians, atheists, agnostics and those of other religions. The atheists scored the highest, with Muslims close behind and Christians brought up the rear.

Of course it depends what you mean by "religious knowledge."

 

[tiglathpileser]

Wow,

So the things you can mark against non believers are foul language and not respecting your myths. Am I permitted to mark up the same against Christians for not respecting the Father Odin?

What myths are you talking about?

 

[tiglathpileser]

How do you determine if someone is a Christian?

The bible says that only a follower of Christ can admit that Jesus Christ is Lord. Unless you can do this you are not a follower of Christ.

 

[tiglathpileser]

I have a feels the Pew folks have a little experience in conducting research, with populations of people.

Let me get this straight; a true Christian will have knowledge of scripture, even if they haven't read it?

Read what was said which is "parts of scripture" not "the scriptures." The Holy Spirit is is said in scripture will lead you into ALL truth. It does not say that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth once you have read the scripture. So whether we have read any particular scripture or not the Holy Spirit can still lead us into all truth.

 

[bhsmte]

Read what was said which is "parts of scripture" not "the scriptures." The Holy Spirit is is said in scripture will lead you into ALL truth. It does not say that the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth once you have read the scripture. So whether we have read any particular scripture or not the Holy Spirit can still lead us into all truth.

How so?

 

[Ana the Ist]

The problem with your post is that it is full of wild generalisations which can be applied in some cases but not all.

For instance, you say that you have noticed non believers have good morals. That is not proven by the prison population as most of those who are in prison are non believers.

P.S. Great looking nephews.

Where did you get the idea that "most of those who are in prison are non-believers"?

Is it something that someone told you? Is it something that you just made-up?

I know you didn't actually look into the matter because if you did...you'd know that you're wrong.

 

[tiglathpileser]

How so?

I am glad you asked me that as it gives me the opportunity to rightly divide the word of truth to you. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity and he is currently God's representative on earth. In the Old Testament he was his own representative, In the New, Jesus was his representative and after pentecost, the Holy Spirit is his representative.

the Holy Spirit is just that. The Spirit of God who moves about where he wills and when he wills. That means he can be anywhere at anytime and talk to anyone. He may be a spirit but he does talk. At the same time we are filled with the Holy Spirit so we are in constant contact with him so we can hear his voice and listen to his instructions.

In its simplest form I may be going out to day and wonder if I should drive the car or go by bus. A little voice says go by bus, so I do. I get on the bus and that little voice tells me to sit by a certain person, so I do. I say "G'day" to them and they return the greeting and a conversation ensues. I feel led to say that I am a christian and have overcome certain things because of that. When we part I give them my card and tell the person to contact me anytime. Three weeks later I get a call from them and we meet in a cafe and talk more. On sunday they come to my church and get saved. As buses did not exist in scripture there is no scripture to read.

Every day I am accosted with decisions that I really am not sure about but I hear that little voice saying to me do this or do that and I know it is the Holy Spirit guiding me as the scripture says he will guide us into all truth (John 16:13).

How much of this you understand I am not sure but I know that it is reality to me and works 101 so I don't have to lean on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). Such an experience is vital to me because I am learning to know the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) and as such it enable me to become more like him (1 John 3:2).

 

[tiglathpileser]

Where did you get the idea that "most of those who are in prison are non-believers"?

Is it something that someone told you? Is it something that you just made-up?

I know you didn't actually look into the matter because if you did...you'd know that you're wrong.

No, actually I am not wrong. My wife and I have been involved in a ministry called "Prison Fellowship" which was started by Charles Colson, who was Richard Nixon's former hatchet man before he got saved. Their monthly newsletter is full of information about prisoners and as they are there on the ground every day in the prisons, no conjecture is needed. Their statistics are to be trusted.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, actually I am not wrong. My wife and I have been involved in a ministry called "Prison Fellowship" which was started by Charles Colson, who was Richard Nixon's former hatchet man before he got saved. Their monthly newsletter is full of information about prisoners and as they are there on the ground every day in the prisons, no conjecture is needed. Their statistics are to be trusted.

Well I haven't seen Prison Fellowships' statistics...but just from the name of the organization, I suspect they're going to be a teeny tiny bit biased regarding the incarceration rates of believers and non-believers.

If you look at polls/surveys done by organizations that collect statistical data as a profession...the results will probably surprise you. Atheists make a smaller percentage of the prison population than they are in the civilian population. The only real conclusion to draw is that they commit crimes at a lower statistical rate than their believer counterparts.

 

[bhsmte]

I am glad you asked me that as it gives me the opportunity to rightly divide the word of truth to you. The Holy Spirit is the third person of the trinity and he is currently God's representative on earth. In the Old Testament he was his own representative, In the New, Jesus was his representative and after pentecost, the Holy Spirit is his representative.

the Holy Spirit is just that. The Spirit of God who moves about where he wills and when he wills. That means he can be anywhere at anytime and talk to anyone. He may be a spirit but he does talk. At the same time we are filled with the Holy Spirit so we are in constant contact with him so we can hear his voice and listen to his instructions.

In its simplest form I may be going out to day and wonder if I should drive the car or go by bus. A little voice says go by bus, so I do. I get on the bus and that little voice tells me to sit by a certain person, so I do. I say "G'day" to them and they return the greeting and a conversation ensues. I feel led to say that I am a christian and have overcome certain things because of that. When we part I give them my card and tell the person to contact me anytime. Three weeks later I get a call from them and we meet in a cafe and talk more. On sunday they come to my church and get saved. As buses did not exist in scripture there is no scripture to read.

Every day I am accosted with decisions that I really am not sure about but I hear that little voice saying to me do this or do that and I know it is the Holy Spirit guiding me as the scripture says he will guide us into all truth (John 16:13).

How much of this you understand I am not sure but I know that it is reality to me and works 101 so I don't have to lean on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). Such an experience is vital to me because I am learning to know the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) and as such it enable me to become more like him (1 John 3:2).

Cool story.

I personally don't buy it.

That's ok though, because you can still believe it.

 

[keith99]

Where did you get the idea that "most of those who are in prison are non-believers"?

Is it something that someone told you? Is it something that you just made-up?

I know you didn't actually look into the matter because if you did...you'd know that you're wrong.

Probably because no true believer (tm) would do anything worthy of jail time!