On the Christian Perception of Our Shared Reality

[Stephen3141]

When mainstream media in the United States began misrepresenting things Trump said during his speeches back in 2015 it was just boldfaced lies, and about things anyone who cared to go to the original video recording of the speech could verify.

Honestly, that was probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen in my life.... The audacity of lying to people who could just turn around and see for themselves was just like, really? Ya know?

So at any rate this left a HUGE whole where trustworthy news once sat.

I do agree, a lot of craziness started appearing in that hole and some people fell for it. I think sometimes it affected the elderly most, but there's some kid's too.

Whenever I hear someone I know start talking about something that was incorrectly reported, right or left, I try and correct them because I have more time, the knowledge, and usually the ability to suss out the truth... (God Willing!)

I think people should be properly informed - I agree with you here.

But there's a hole where news used to exist... It's the largest part of the problem now.

However, I must correct you that Trump "demands" that anyone believe anything he does. Trump is Trump. I voted for him twice and I certainly don't always agree with him... But that doesn't make him a liar or a poor president.

In order to call something a lie, you must first believe there's an absolute truth in the matter.

There's truth, but neither side has the absolute and complete truth of it, only what they believe that truth to be.

Do I blame Trump for calling out election interference?

No .. I don't think it happened at the voting booth or the voting machines, but it was more than real, in both elections, worse in 2020 than in 2016.

Do I believe that Trump believes every word he's saying? Yes... But if my mother-in-law or friend or neighbor comes to me telling me the same I would correct them and if Trump said the same I'd disagree to his face ..

But does it change the way he's going to affect US policy once in office?

No.... Just another task force to investigate and make sure our stuff can't be hacked etc. That's no big deal.

Either side of the aisle should be happy to see it regardless of how it comes out. Making sure voting is secure is a good thing...

It's kind of a nothing burger because it doesn't affect anything in the real world. A few more dollars making sure our elections are secure at most. We spend money on worse things every day.

Whether or not someone BELIEVES what they are saying, does NOT determine
if what they are saying is true.

There are objective standards for testing whether an assertion is true, or not.

For Christians, the Bible presents LYING as misrepresenting our shared reality.
Some Christians really misunderstand this definition of lying, and think that
asserting whatever one "believes", is not lying. Continuing to assert whatever
a person believes, bypasses a Christian's responsibility to seek out truth,
and carefully test whether opinions/beliefs are true.

Donald Trump has a few problems.

-- He has changed his positions on a number of subjects, in ways that
are inconsistent with each other.
-- He has asserted that there was massive fraud in the 2020 election, when
the evidence supports that this was a clean election. Donald has filed about
2 dozen lawsuits about this, and they have all been thrown out, for not having
any substantial or relative evidence to support them.
-- Donald has played around with the Qanon and Alex Jones and Tucker
Carlson conspiracy theories, which are systems of unproven opinions.
They are systems of "explanations", but as high school students should
have learned in a good course on Logic, explanations are not proofs.
A lot more effort is required to demonstrate that some opinion/belief is
TRUE, than to just spin out unproven "explanations". Donald's standard
explanation, when he can't think of anything logical, is that the "Deep
State" is defeating him.

Some of these conspiracy theories have been held by historic groups
such as radical Muslim jihadists, and radical Nazi white supremecists.
-- Donald is quick to slander people who disagree with him. He doesn't bother
to try to demonstrate why differing opinions are false.
-- Donald is quick to condemn the entire American legal system for being a
shallow tool of political parties. But in this, he completely ignores the evidence
that is being brought against him. The American legal system has strict rules
about what can be introduced as evidence in court cases. And Donald's
emotional claims, do not constitute logical reasons why this evidence should not
be used in court.

Basically, Donald does not meet any of the strict conditions and tests, that
orthodox Christians would accept, when they try to determine whether an
opinion/belief is TRUE.

-- Beyond this, Donald has repeatedly asserted threats against judges, their families,
and people who disagree with him. Donald does not seem able to create logical
arguments against their positions. He simply threatens, or mocks them.

-- Although Donald's supporters don't want to admit it, historians who study the U.S.
presidents are coming to the agreement that Donald Trump was one of the worst
presidents in American history. The historians ignore the rhetoric of the presidents,
and look at their beliefs, values, and accomplishments. Donald does not represent
the democratic values of America, or the fair rule of law, or the self-control and
discipline and eduction that a good president should have.
---------- ----------

I'm not sure whether or not Donald believes what he is saying.
But the Christian definition of lying, is bearing false witness about our
shared reality. And Donald Trump regularly says things that are completely
out of step with evidence from our shared reality.

Donald Trump habitually misrepresents our shared reality.
---------- ----------

What the "mainstream" media say, is an independent topic.
But if you judge the accuracy of the mainstream media, by assertions from
Tucker Carlson and Fox News, then you are using a very biased foundation
from which to evaluate other media.

Donald Trump habitually misrepresents our shared reality.

 

[timothyu]

People aren't interested in truth. They just want a team to cheer on.
That applies both in the secular and religious worlds.

 

[o_mlly]

For Christians, the Bible presents LYING as misrepresenting our shared reality.
Some Christians really misunderstand this definition of lying, and think that
asserting whatever one "believes", is not lying.

The statement, "Asserting whatever one believes is not lying" is a true statement.

Lying consists in putting into words the very opposite of what one really thinks—the opposite of one's own state of mind.
The lie must, of course, be intentional and with a deliberate purpose to deceive for the sake of gaining some advantage, regardless of the injury that may result to the person who is deceived.

As your basic premise fails to be correct, I dismiss the rest of your post as merely your rambling negative opinions about the character of Donald Trump.

As you claim to be Catholic, I refer you to our Catechism # 2477-2479.

 

[perplexed]

Do I believe that Trump believes every word he's saying? Yes... But if my mother-in-law or friend or neighbor comes to me telling me the same I would correct them and if Trump said the same I'd disagree to his face ..

?? Trump said Dominion switched Millions of votes, Did he believe this even though his advisors told him there was no evidence of this and Sydney Powells evidence was from a crazy person that talked to ghosts.

 

[FireDragon76]

Amnesty international did a report back in, I don't know, maybe around 2012 or 2013 I don't remember exactly, that 60% of all the WOMEN crossing our southern border were victims of rape ON their way to the US border.

Another group did another study and claimed the number was far higher, at around 80% - but they were pretty far left so I usually used the Amnesty international report when debating.

I used argue online about discouraging that type of "immigration" (if we can call it that) all the time and this was always my main argument to use because the number of raped women is utterly horrific. (I am a woman and my daughter was once raped, not the same situation certainly but the amount of emotional trauma tied to rape is really really really high, and we cannot want this for anything.)

I have always said we needed a better way to get those who need to come here, and just completely shut that border, that way people aren't making this journey that has no good end on any level.

You have to understand something. These arguments - we were using them for years before Trump ran for office.

Trump has twice quoted my husband directly, and this women are raped argument? That's been mine...

Trump used, when in front of the camera the farther left report which said 80% instead of Amnesty international's 60% - but at the time he said it I dragged both reports back out and started arguing it all over again.

Because these women are raped, and it's really and truly horrific. We can't prevent the rape itself, but we can keep women safer by discouraging the trek and looking for better ways to get people who need to be here, here.

Trump has been promoting the policies your average person has been online arguing for, for decades.

Not only that, but he's getting his arguments directly from your average American who used to debate the left a lot... and we AREN'T racist.

He may not always use the "exact right" study (for instance I thought Amnesty was better to use because the other was too far left) and his off the cuff word choice is sometimes poorly chosen, but Trump connects to people because he says what they say - and then went forth trying to make some positive policy decisions.

It's never racist to say the truth. But it's evil to sit and twist it into something it's not.

We've been talking and talking and talking about this stuff for years and no one listened until Trump did.

And honestly, if all these years of debates didn't make sense to you, they never ever will.

If Trump uses a Muslim woman's debate against an open southern border and is slammed by all as a racist then I doubt there's any hope left for us.

And a Muslim woman I was when I began making those arguments.

So all it says to me is anyone who doesn't agree with the crazy far left gets a lie painted on them and that's just the way they are seen, regardless of what they say or do.

"I don't think women should be raped" "Racist pig white supremacist blah blah blah!"

Get over it because I don't want women raped.

And by the way, this is why everyone on the right knows it's us you hate, us the average American, and not Trump. He's only repeating what he has seen us say... Us, as a voting block.

It would be a red flag except he followed through as best as I think he could when he was in office. Better than anyone I've ever voted for in my life.

But when you say Trump is a racist for bringing up the fact that the majority of woman are raped trying to get here, who make it across our border, your actually calling me a racist for saying it needs to stop.

And it breaks my heart every time. Because not wanting people hurt used to be a good thing no matter who you talk to. Now it's just more "evidence" of what? Your hatred of me.

Don't play games. Trump implied most people crossing the border are murderers and rapists. Women crossing the border being vulnerable to rape doesn't prove Trump's remarks are correct, since it doesn't prove that migrants themselves are rapists. In anything, it contradicts his propaganda that the migrants are predators. They are generally victims.

 

[o_mlly]

Trump plainly said ...

Trump implied ...

Back down a bit more.

It would be more honest to post, "I infer ..." rather than "Trump implied ... ". Only the speaker implies; the listener may only infer.

I used to just chuckle at the "TDS" label assigned to those who irrationally criticize Trump. I'm beginning to think that TDS should be listed in the revised DSM-6 as a true mental disorder.

 

[Stephen3141]

I take a much stronger definition of "lying", than speaking what one believes.

Lying is bearing false witness against our shared reality.
Lying can include speaking about something, on which we are ignorant.
Lying can be speaking our opinion, without testing our opinion, to see if
it matches our shared reality.
Lying can be keeping our opinion, even when we have evidence from our shared reality,
that SHOULD HAVE triggered us to revise our belief system.

This is a much more edgy concept of "lying", that is not based on our relative
belief system.

I would argue that the biblical concept of lying, is intimately tied to our
individual moral-ethical responsibility to be in touch with our shared reality.
And this includes a ME ought to learn and test ideas and beliefs.

What God does with individuals who are truly ignorant, and speak out of
ignorance, I leave to God.