A few questions for Protestants

[Valletta]

That's based on a misinterpretation of John 21:25, which I suppose means in RCC tradition that the Pope can come up with whatever and claim it's an unheard teaching of Jesus. I'm not sure whether or not there are any specific RCC teachings/traditions that are supposed to be unheard teachings of Jesus.

What a gross misrepresentation of Catholicism. Please respect the beliefs of others. I direct you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to at least learn some basics.

 

[bbbbbbb]

What a gross misrepresentation of Catholicism. Please respect the beliefs of others. I direct you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to at least learn some basics.

Quite true. The usage of the dogma of papal infallibility since it was created in 1871 can probably be counted on two hands. The only times that come to my own mind are the proclamation of the Four Marian Dogmas. Even though many folks perceive Vatican II as an extreme example of the abuse of papal infallibility, there was absolutely nothing that came out of the Council which emanated directly from the Pope himself.

 

[timothyu]

We're supposed to be like Jesus, which would mean having the same kind of focus on God that Jesus had, which results in us being like Jesus.

He put the will of the Father ahead of his own.

 

[timothyu]

Certainly, folks like the Crusaders believed that they had God's focus, which is executing righteous judgement.

The one time the Jews and Muslims fought together

 

[bbbbbbb]

The one time the Jews and Muslims fought together

Yes. As they say, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

 

[Valletta]

Quite true. The usage of the dogma of papal infallibility since it was created in 1871 can probably be counted on two hands. The only times that come to my own mind are the proclamation of the Four Marian Dogmas. Even though many folks perceive Vatican II as an extreme example of the abuse of papal infallibility, there was absolutely nothing that came out of the Council which emanated directly from the Pope himself.

If I may add, the pope acts in conjunction with the bishops, what we call the Magisterium. For the dogma of the Assumption, the pope sent out a letter to the bishops, and almost all replied that they believed in the Assumption of Mary. There is no account in the Bible, but the Gospels can be considered as a basis for that dogma. The Catholic Church maintains that we can and do come to a deeper understanding of God's Word as time passes.

 

[timothyu]

For the dogma of the Assumption, the pope sent out a letter to the bishops, and almost all replied that they believed in the Assumption of Mary.

When was this?

 

[Valletta]

When was this?

I'm sorry, I should have said before he declared the Dogma of the Assumption.

 

[discombobulated1]

That's based on a misinterpretation of John 21:25, which I suppose means in RCC tradition that the Pope can come up with whatever and claim it's an unheard teaching of Jesus. I'm not sure whether or not there are any specific RCC teachings/traditions that are supposed to be unheard teachings of Jesus.

In the New Testament, we read that

"If all Jesus said and did were to be written down, it is doubtful the entire world could hold all the books"

or words to that effect. It is at the end of one the gospels, if I am not mistaken

 

[timothyu]

I'm sorry, I should have said before he declared the Dogma of the Assumption.

So they had 1700 years of tradition to base it on?

 

[Valletta]

So they had 1700 years of tradition to base it on?

The deposit of the faith is considered to have ended with the death of the last Apostle. So based upon that deposit of faith.

 

[discombobulated1]

If I may add, the pope acts in conjunction with the bishops, what we call the Magisterium. For the dogma of the Assumption, the pope sent out a letter to the bishops, and almost all replied that they believed in the Assumption of Mary. There is no account in the Bible, but the Gospels can be considered as a basis for that dogma. The Catholic Church maintains that we can and do come to a deeper understanding of God's Word as time passes.

Every time a saintly person dies, people want relics from the person like a pc of the clothing the person wore and of course, pieces of bone or whatever.

Nobody ever talks about the relics of Mary, Mother of Christ.

 

[Valletta]

Every time a saintly person dies, people want relics from the person like a pc of the clothing the person wore and of course, pieces of bone or whatever.

Nobody ever talks about the relics of Mary, Mother of Christ.

The Christian historical writers of the time and immediately thereafter did not mention a grave or a tomb.

 

[Ceallaigh]

In the New Testament, we read that

"If all Jesus said and did were to be written down, it is doubtful the entire world could hold all the books"

or words to that effect. It is at the end of one the gospels, if I am not mistaken

The verse is in the post you quoted.

 

[Ceallaigh]

What a gross misrepresentation of Catholicism. Please respect the beliefs of others. I direct you to the Catechism of the Catholic Church to at least learn some basics.

Well it was clearly laid out as a supposition that you could have corrected. The fact that you launched into an admonishment like that instead gives the impression I was on the right track.

 

[jas3]

Well it was clearly laid out as a supposition that you could have corrected. The fact that you launched into an admonishment like that instead gives the impression I was on the right track.

Your statement was so far off the mark that it didn't warrant much more response than @Valletta gave. Do you actually think Catholics believe the Pope has knowledge of "unheard" or "secret" sayings of Jesus? That's Gnosticism.

Rereading the last page of posts, you misinterpreted Valletta's statement that "Jesus had teachings never heard before" as referencing John 21:25, when it was actually referencing @timothyu's statement that everything Jesus taught was already contained in the Old Testament.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If I may add, the pope acts in conjunction with the bishops, what we call the Magisterium. For the dogma of the Assumption, the pope sent out a letter to the bishops, and almost all replied that they believed in the Assumption of Mary. There is no account in the Bible, but the Gospels can be considered as a basis for that dogma. The Catholic Church maintains that we can and do come to a deeper understanding of God's Word as time passes.

Quite true. That is one of the major principles that divides the EOC from the RCC. My understanding of the EOC is that they adhere to a firm belief that everything was fully settled by the end of the Early Church Fathers and that can be no further development without lapsing into heresies and errors. Perhaps the Liturgist might be willing to address this further.

Also, the structure of the EOC is significantly different, without a specific head of the Church, but a consensus among the various Patriarchs. The office of the pope is completely foreign to EOC polity.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Your statement was so far off the mark that it didn't warrant much more response than @Valletta gave. Do you actually think Catholics believe the Pope has knowledge of "unheard" or "secret" sayings of Jesus? That's Gnosticism.

Rereading the last page of posts, you misinterpreted Valletta's statement that "Jesus had teachings never heard before" as referencing John 21:25, when it was actually referencing @timothyu's statement that everything Jesus taught was already contained in the Old Testament.

I've been in a lot of threads like these and John 21:25 has been brought up a lot by Catholics along the lines I was talking about. "Jesus did" gets switched to "Jesus said" and then there's talk of the unwritten teachings of Jesus. Which alludes to there being unwritten teachings and commands of Jesus that can be or are implemented by the Catholic Church.

 

[Valletta]

I've been in a lot of threads like these and John 21:25 has been brought up a lot by Catholics along the lines I was talking about. "Jesus did" gets switched to "Jesus said" and then there's talk of the unwritten teachings of Jesus. Which alludes to there being unwritten teachings and commands of Jesus that can be or are implemented by the Catholic Church.

I see we misunderstood each other. While there are no secret teachings that Catholics have kept hidden, the Word of God consists of both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture:
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.
III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH
The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church
84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2

 

[Ceallaigh]

I see we misunderstood each other. While there are no secret teachings that Catholics have kept hidden, the Word of God consists of both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture:
II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE
One common source. . .
80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41
. . . two distinct modes of transmission
81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42
"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
Apostolic Tradition and ecclesial traditions
83 The Tradition here in question comes from the apostles and hands on what they received from Jesus' teaching and example and what they learned from the Holy Spirit. The first generation of Christians did not yet have a written New Testament, and the New Testament itself demonstrates the process of living Tradition.
Tradition is to be distinguished from the various theological, disciplinary, liturgical or devotional traditions, born in the local churches over time. These are the particular forms, adapted to different places and times, in which the great Tradition is expressed. In the light of Tradition, these traditions can be retained, modified or even abandoned under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium.
III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH
The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church
84 The apostles entrusted the "Sacred deposit" of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46
The Magisterium of the Church
85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 2

Who wrote that and when was it written?

(I clicked the link but got a warning saying the connection is not secure).