A discussion of the Deep Things of God

[Gary K]

You do know that before contraception, abortion was not part of polite society. You just did not do that. Contraception was around, but was thought of as for prostitutes and degenerates.

After the pill and the sexual revolution we have over a million babies per year slaughtered. Yes that has gone on for centuries if not millennia but it had its proper place in the fires of Moloch where the drums were played loud to drown out the screams. Now the priests wear surgical scrubs and we are told to think of it as reproductive freedom and women’s healthcare
I see people all the time that claim to be Christians go to doctors to get contraception or even abortions because they think it is just healthcare. You would not see as many going, if they had to take their unwanted babies to the temple of Moloch to toss in the fire, but that is what is going on. Abortions are in medical trash and incinerated.
You may turn a blind eye, but if people were not made to think that sexual intercourse can be had for pleasure without responsibility, there would be less abortions as they would be properly taught that sexual intercourse leads to children. You don’t have to want children, but, if you don’t, then don’t have sex.

One of my favorite lines from an eighties sitcom was when a grandfather was telling his granddaughter not to go on the pill. She said, “I don’t want to contribute to the population explosion!” The grandfather said, then you shouldn’t be playing with dynamite!
Think about it. It does not appear that the SDA has.

Yes we have. We do not condone premarital sex, or extra marital sex. We also don't condone divorce on anything other than Biblical grounds or spousal abuse. The church, any church, is not responsible for the actions of individuals. Their behavior is between them and God. When the church attempts to get into the place of God it is severely overstepping its bounds. Open sin is not to be tolerated though as sin in the camp destroys the spirituality of the church as a whole, i.e. the example of Aachan.

However, we need to be forgiving of sinners as God is very forgiving. Look at His example with the nations of Israel and Judah. They finally had to murder Jesus before He said they had gone too far to be forgiven as a nation.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yes we have. We do not condone premarital sex, or extra marital sex. We also don't condone divorce on anything other than Biblical grounds or spousal abuse. The church, any church, is not responsible for the actions of individuals. Their behavior is between them and God. When the church attempts to get into the place of God it is severely overstepping its bounds. Open sin is not to be tolerated though as sin in the camp destroys the spirituality of the church as a whole, i.e. the example of Aachan.

However, we need to be forgiving of sinners as God is very forgiving. Look at His example with the nations of Israel and Judah. They finally had to murder Jesus before He said they had gone too far to be forgiven as a nation.

I understand what you are saying and I admire that you are a conservative and do not fall for the left wing politics sweeping the earth. You rightly claim that God is about to judge the world. Sin is so common place and even argued to be good. Does not word say whoa to those that call the good evil and the evil good?

Two things to consider, sins of the flesh are what are driving most souls to destruction at this time. It is evident that many have no regard for God and His commands. That fills me with sadness and fear.

Sadness because I know their end and wish so hard that they would turn from wickedness. Fear because I wonder if I am doing all I can to stay true to God and warn others of their wicked ways
As Ezekiel 3 says

18 If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand.

I know that contraception is wrong and it is the excuse the wicked use to defy God. Knowing that, why should I condone it? Would it not be better to glorify God by denying myself and mortifying my flesh in favor of Chastity?
It would seem so, and if I loved God, I would do all I can to teach chastity rather than sex without responsibility. If I don’t want children and dont want to bring them into this world, then I don’t have sexual intercourse for the sake of those being lost. Sure God will forgive anyone, but how can they ask for forgiveness if they are not told they are in sin? Why does SDA not see this?

The other to think about is it does not matter if we know that the world is evil and about to be judged. We know who wins, but so what?

Consider the Super Bowl. We get real happy when our team wins, but do we get any real benefit from the Super Bowl other than the feeling that our team won? Who gets a prize? The players on the field that actually played the game, not us the spectators

Here on Earth, we are called to spiritual combat, and we can put on the full armor of God and wield the sword of the Spirit or we can sit back and watch. I used to think that meant that I had to lead people to the Lord, and my value was based on how many people that I brought to Church. Sounds good right?

It cannot be more wrong. The word of God tells us that no man comes the the Father except by me, and no one comes to Me unless the Father draw him. Not by might not by power but by Spirit. It’s not my words or my testimony that saves souls, rather the Holy Spirit.

Every airline passenger knows that in case of emergency, put the oxygen on yourself first, before helping others. The same it is with the Lord. I cannot lead people to the Lord, nor is it to my benefit if I do, unless all my actions conform to the will of God.
When we pray the Our Father and speak the words, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, it is not some longing for a future fantasy where everyone evemtually obeys God, but it is a promise from me now, that I will do all that I can to conform my life to His will now.

Contraception does me nor anyone else any good as it enables God’s will to be thwarted. Do I really expect a reward from Him whose will I thwarted throughout my life? That does not sound right. Jesus said that if any man is to look at a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart. Also, adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Contraception promotes lust, why should I use it?

 

[Gary K]

I understand what you are saying and I admire that you are a conservative and do not fall for the left wing politics sweeping the earth. You rightly claim that God is about to judge the world. Sin is so common place and even argued to be good. Does not word say whoa to those that call the good evil and the evil good?

Two things to consider, sins of the flesh are what are driving most souls to destruction at this time. It is evident that many have no regard for God and His commands. That fills me with sadness and fear.

Sadness because I know their end and wish so hard that they would turn from wickedness. Fear because I wonder if I am doing all I can to stay true to God and warn others of their wicked ways
As Ezekiel 3 says

18 If, when I say to the wicked, Thou shalt surely die: thou declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at thy hand.

I know that contraception is wrong and it is the excuse the wicked use to defy God. Knowing that, why should I condone it? Would it not be better to glorify God by denying myself and mortifying my flesh in favor of Chastity?
It would seem so, and if I loved God, I would do all I can to teach chastity rather than sex without responsibility. If I don’t want children and dont want to bring them into this world, then I don’t have sexual intercourse for the sake of those being lost. Sure God will forgive anyone, but how can they ask for forgiveness if they are not told they are in sin? Why does SDA not see this?

The other to think about is it does not matter if we know that the world is evil and about to be judged. We know who wins, but so what?

Consider the Super Bowl. We get real happy when our team wins, but do we get any real benefit from the Super Bowl other than the feeling that our team won? Who gets a prize? The players on the field that actually played the game, not us the spectators

Here on Earth, we are called to spiritual combat, and we can put on the full armor of God and wield the sword of the Spirit or we can sit back and watch. I used to think that meant that I had to lead people to the Lord, and my value was based on how many people that I brought to Church. Sounds good right?

It cannot be more wrong. The word of God tells us that no man comes the the Father except by me, and no one comes to Me unless the Father draw him. Not by might not by power but by Spirit. It’s not my words or my testimony that saves souls, rather the Holy Spirit.

Every airline passenger knows that in case of emergency, put the oxygen on yourself first, before helping others. The same it is with the Lord. I cannot lead people to the Lord, nor is it to my benefit if I do, unless all my actions conform to the will of God.
When we pray the Our Father and speak the words, Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven, it is not some longing for a future fantasy where everyone evemtually obeys God, but it is a promise from me now, that I will do all that I can to conform my life to His will now.

Contraception does me nor anyone else any good as it enables God’s will to be thwarted. Do I really expect a reward from Him whose will I thwarted throughout my life? That does not sound right. Jesus said that if any man is to look at a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart. Also, adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. Contraception promotes lust, why should I use it?

I agree with the vast majority of what you said.

I disagree once again on contraceptives. Does not using them stop the devil from tempting us into an illicit sexual affair? From my experience I have to say no. He doesn't pay any attention to that, but I do think he prefers that we don't use them as a pregnancy from an illicit affair causes more pain and heartache than using them and not bringing another child into existence. If the participants are married it isn't that big of a deal unless one participant is married to a sterile partner. If one or both people are not married it can mean a child being brought into this world and being raised in a single parent home which can mean a child raised in poverty which is not good. There are a lot of negatives outcomes associated with being raised in poverty and single parent homes.

The child is to be considered first and foremost in my eyes as every time one is brought into this world in bad circumstances it elevates the chances of them being abused and having a ruined life. That increases the level of evil in the world rather than decreasing it. To me, having been abused myself, I know exactly how much pain it engenders in the child. It takes an otherwise highly intelligent kid and actually lowers their IQ. It also so lowers their self confidence and belief in themselves that they can accomplish something good with their life so many times it causes a lifetime of poverty and if they have kids another generation of abuse. It's self perpetuating. The Bible even tells us so.

Exodus 20: 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Well, I hope this helps you understand why I am pro contraceptive.

If you're interested I'll tell you how God gave me back more intelligence than I had after my drug use than I had before I began using them.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I still disagree on contraceptives, but I understand why you feel that way. Did you consider the statement “putting the child first”
and see that it is not from the word of God.
The commandments tell us to honor our mother and father. Hard to do in this society, but still a command. If we put the child first, then we thwart God’s intentions aka His will.

I never advocate child abuse, and if the parents are obedient to God, they do not abuse their children, rather bring them up rightly in the word of truth. There is something to say of the innocence of children, but also the impetuousness of youth. Since our nature is inclined to sin aka evil, children require training and discipline.
Else it’s as the scripture says, children shall be their oppressors and they shall be ruled over by women. (Paraphrase need reference)

As we get older, man should be able to discipline himself and treat his wife like a lady and mother, rather than as a pleasure provider. Contraception displays a lack of that discipline, and when there is a difference in sexual desire, it leaves the man open to the curse of Adam by abdicating his priestly role in the family and lowering himself to begging for sex and being subject to his wife rathe than him, as God commands. With the curse of Eve, women will always wish to rule and subdue her husband, but become unsatisfied and disgusted by him, if she succeeds. A woman wants to be married to a man, not a tyrant nor a baby boy. A man rules over his own body by the grace of God

Those are my thoughts. I would love to hear about how God gave you back intelligence

Peace be with you

 

[Gary K]

I still disagree on contraceptives, but I understand why you feel that way. Did you consider the statement “putting the child first”
and see that it is not from the word of God.
The commandments tell us to honor our mother and father. Hard to do in this society, but still a command. If we put the child first, then we thwart God’s intentions aka His will.

I never advocate child abuse, and if the parents are obedient to God, they do not abuse their children, rather bring them up rightly in the word of truth. There is something to say of the innocence of children, but also the impetuousness of youth. Since our nature is inclined to sin aka evil, children require training and discipline.
Else it’s as the scripture says, children shall be their oppressors and they shall be ruled over by women. (Paraphrase need reference)

As we get older, man should be able to discipline himself and treat his wife like a lady and mother, rather than as a pleasure provider. Contraception displays a lack of that discipline, and when there is a difference in sexual desire, it leaves the man open to the curse of Adam by abdicating his priestly role in the family and lowering himself to begging for sex and being subject to his wife rathe than him, as God commands. With the curse of Eve, women will always wish to rule and subdue her husband, but become unsatisfied and disgusted by him, if she succeeds. A woman wants to be married to a man, not a tyrant nor a baby boy. A man rules over his own body by the grace of God

Those are my thoughts. I would love to hear about how God gave you back intelligence

Peace be with you

You are making scripture disagree with itself.

Malachi 4: 5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Colossians 3: 20 Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Where does God place parents before children? That is not a Biblical concept. God is just and fair. He will not prefer on person over another. Adult or child.

Acts 10: 34 ¶ Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

James 2: 1 MY brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

I trust God because He has proven Himself just and fair hundreds of times in my life and I've learned not to trust people because they are not just and fair in all their interactions with people.

So I stand behind what I said 100%. Children are not responsible for being brought into this world. The people who had sex are.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Children are not responsible for coming into the world, but they come into the world in original sin and need to be redeemed. Baptism cleanses them from sin until they reach the age of reason and are capable of mortal sin

I can still remember my first mortal sin . It was when my parents sent me to the store to a few groceries. I was seven years old and a boy that I thought was a friend came along. He convinced me to buy a toy that I was not authorized to buy, so it was effectively stealing from my parents.

I knew it was wrong and weakly protested, but the boy told me to do it anyway. I thought that the cashier would tell us we did not have enough money, but it was sufficient and we even got change. I felt a strange admiration for the boy in that he could do what was wrong and have no consequence, or so I thought. Being seven I did not know that the receipt would show an excess expense. I was found out and legitimately punished. Seven is the age when a Catholic child goes to first confession and makes first communion because we are capable of mortal sin and able to understand that Jesus suffered and died for us, as well as offering His flesh and blood for us to eat for spiritual strength. I did not know that on my own, but had to be taught or catechized

Jesus forgives our sins, but sin also requires a temporal punishment. In the case of stealing, true penance would involve restitution, but since I was seven and incapable of restitution, I had to endure corporeal punishment.

God loves all of us created in His image but we are not the same. Heaven is a kingdom, not a democracy. There is a hierarchy which we are required to obey. God says that He desires obedience rather than sacrifice. We need to obey others legitimately put in charge of us.
Parents are charged to teach their children and children are charged to obey their parents. The family is where children begin to learn about God, and we teach them God’s commandments

In the Church there is a hierarchy as Paul says in Ephesians. We are all given different gifts, but we all work together for the body of Christ

11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:


He specifically says that not all members of the body of Christ are the same. 1 Corinthians 12 gives an excellent explanation

11 But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.

21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.


You are right that God is not a respecter of persons, but He has arranged His body in a hierarchal structure and we owe obedience to it, not rebellion against it. We do not respect the persons of the hierarchy, as they are but men, but we do respect the offices of the hierarchy as they were put in place by God for His good pleasure. All members work together for good, but not all members work the same job.

Obedience to the hierarchy is a mark of humility and one of the reasons Jesus says that to come after Him, we are to be as little children

I thought as a conservative you would understand hierarchal structures, as it is the Marxists that try to shove egalitarianism down our throats to the detriment of society. Paul says we cannot all be eyes or all ears, but we must work together.

If you tried to make us all the same, then we would become as every people where communism has been tried. Loss of freedom, loss of hope, millions of deaths with abject poverty for most

 

[Gary K]

Children are not responsible for coming into the world, but they come into the world in original sin and need to be redeemed. Baptism cleanses them from sin until they reach the age of reason and are capable of mortal sin

I can still remember my first mortal sin . It was when my parents sent me to the store to a few groceries. I was seven years old and a boy that I thought was a friend came along. He convinced me to buy a toy that I was not authorized to buy, so it was effectively stealing from my parents.

I knew it was wrong and weakly protested, but the boy told me to do it anyway. I thought that the cashier would tell us we did not have enough money, but it was sufficient and we even got change. I felt a strange admiration for the boy in that he could do what was wrong and have no consequence, or so I thought. Being seven I did not know that the receipt would show an excess expense. I was found out and legitimately punished. Seven is the age when a Catholic child goes to first confession and makes first communion because we are capable of mortal sin and able to understand that Jesus suffered and died for us, as well as offering His flesh and blood for us to eat for spiritual strength. I did not know that on my own, but had to be taught or catechized

Jesus forgives our sins, but sin also requires a temporal punishment. In the case of stealing, true penance would involve restitution, but since I was seven and incapable of restitution, I had to endure corporeal punishment.

God loves all of us created in His image but we are not the same. Heaven is a kingdom, not a democracy. There is a hierarchy which we are required to obey. God says that He desires obedience rather than sacrifice. We need to obey others legitimately put in charge of us.
Parents are charged to teach their children and children are charged to obey their parents. The family is where children begin to learn about God, and we teach them God’s commandments

In the Church there is a hierarchy as Paul says in Ephesians. We are all given different gifts, but we all work together for the body of Christ

11 And he gave some apostles, and some prophets, and other some evangelists, and other some pastors and doctors, 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ; 14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness, by which they lie in wait to deceive. 15 But doing the truth in charity, we may in all things grow up in him who is the head, even Christ:


He specifically says that not all members of the body of Christ are the same. 1 Corinthians 12 gives an excellent explanation

11 But all these things one and the same Spirit worketh, dividing to every one according as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body.

21 And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. 28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors; after that miracles; then the graces of healing, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors? 30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.


You are right that God is not a respecter of persons, but He has arranged His body in a hierarchal structure and we owe obedience to it, not rebellion against it. We do not respect the persons of the hierarchy, as they are but men, but we do respect the offices of the hierarchy as they were put in place by God for His good pleasure. All members work together for good, but not all members work the same job.

Obedience to the hierarchy is a mark of humility and one of the reasons Jesus says that to come after Him, we are to be as little children

I thought as a conservative you would understand hierarchal structures, as it is the Marxists that try to shove egalitarianism down our throats to the detriment of society. Paul says we cannot all be eyes or all ears, but we must work together.

If you tried to make us all the same, then we would become as every people where communism has been tried. Loss of freedom, loss of hope, millions of deaths with abject poverty for most

You just listed another Catholic concept that I heartily disagree with. Jesus cleanses us from sin, not the physical rite of Baptism,

Matthew 1: 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that baptism cleanses us from sin. We are to be baptised to demonstrate our faith in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

You seem to have gone off on a tangent and ignored the vast majority of my post. Your entire post seemed to be about the authority of men. I don't bow down to/worship any man other than Jesus as they are all sinful just like I am.

This is one of my really big bugaboos with the Catholic church. It usurps the power of God to forgive sin and the authority of God when it has forced people to accept what it says is truth by torture and death. Jesus did just the opposite. He died for our sins and allows us all to believe what we choose to believe as He created us to be free moral agents.

The other thing I missed on my list is the teaching that a man other than Jesus can forgive sins. That once again usurps the authority that belongs only to God. One of the reasons Jesus was crucified was because He forgave sins.

Luke 5: 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

Tradition is a very shaky ground for truth. The only reliable ground for truth is Jesus and the word of God.

John 14: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no vicar of God on this earth. Jesus is the only way to reach His Father.

I'm sorry if this attacks the foundation of your faith. I don't mean this against you. I find you very honest, but I think you believe in a false system.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

You just listed another Catholic concept that I heartily disagree with. Jesus cleanses us from sin, not the physical rite of Baptism,

Matthew 1: 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that baptism cleanses us from sin. We are to be baptised to demonstrate our faith in Jesus' sacrifice for our sins.

You seem to have gone off on a tangent and ignored the vast majority of my post. Your entire post seemed to be about the authority of men. I don't bow down to/worship any man other than Jesus as they are all sinful just like I am.

This is one of my really big bugaboos with the Catholic church. It usurps the power of God to forgive sin and the authority of God when it has forced people to accept what it says is truth by torture and death. Jesus did just the opposite. He died for our sins and allows us all to believe what we choose to believe as He created us to be free moral agents.

The other thing I missed on my list is the teaching that a man other than Jesus can forgive sins. That once again usurps the authority that belongs only to God. One of the reasons Jesus was crucified was because He forgave sins.

Luke 5: 21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?
24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

Tradition is a very shaky ground for truth. The only reliable ground for truth is Jesus and the word of God.

John 14: 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There is no vicar of God on this earth. Jesus is the only way to reach His Father.

I'm sorry if this attacks the foundation of your faith. I don't mean this against you. I find you very honest, but I think you believe in a false system.

Thank you for your honesty, and I am not offended. It is a common misconception about our faith to state that it is not based on the word of God. I understand why you think that way, but I disagree and have the scripture to prove it.

Mark 16:16 says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
John 3:5 says unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

This puts us in a postiton of two choices. Believe the word of God, or try to explain it away. Obviously baptism is very important to Our Lord, as He underwent it Himself in order to fulfill all righteousness, and He Himself tells us that we must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven. The SDA even have baptism as part of their faith, so it is not trivial.

It is not the water, but the word of God that gives baptism its power to cleanse us from sin. We go through the sacrament in obedience to His command, in the way He told us to do it, and the sacrament does what God tells us it will do.

You may be able to make an argument that is not what the word of God means, but you will have to make it to God Himself. I wish to follow the written word and just be baptized. I understand why you think as you do, as I used to do so myself, but what is the source of the objection? Jesus said to do it, He did it Himself, why shouldn’t I as well, if I claim to follow Him?

We as Catholics also take John 20:21-23 as written. He breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. The word of God says confess your sins one to another. The Apostles were given the power, so we go to them in obedience to Our Lord.

Once again, you can try and make an argument that the scripture has a different meaning, but you cannot say that Catholic teaching is unbiblical. I used to think that, but when the Spirit showed me, and I submitted to the authority of His Church, I was given grace to grow in love for God and it has not stopped cleansing me. I can give you my testimony if you want to hear it, but I am interested in yours

The Angel saved you from harm and you are now more intelligent after you quit drugs than when you were before you stated them. Can you tell me about that?

 

[Gary K]

Thank you for your honesty, and I am not offended. It is a common misconception about our faith to state that it is not based on the word of God. I understand why you think that way, but I disagree and have the scripture to prove it.

Mark 16:16 says he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
John 3:5 says unless a man is born of water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

This puts us in a postiton of two choices. Believe the word of God, or try to explain it away. Obviously baptism is very important to Our Lord, as He underwent it Himself in order to fulfill all righteousness, and He Himself tells us that we must be born of water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of heaven. The SDA even have baptism as part of their faith, so it is not trivial.

It is not the water, but the word of God that gives baptism its power to cleanse us from sin. We go through the sacrament in obedience to His command, in the way He told us to do it, and the sacrament does what God tells us it will do.

You may be able to make an argument that is not what the word of God means, but you will have to make it to God Himself. I wish to follow the written word and just be baptized. I understand why you think as you do, as I used to do so myself, but what is the source of the objection? Jesus said to do it, He did it Himself, why shouldn’t I as well, if I claim to follow Him?

We as Catholics also take John 20:21-23 as written. He breathed on the Apostles and gave them the power to forgive sins. The word of God says confess your sins one to another. The Apostles were given the power, so we go to them in obedience to Our Lord.

Once again, you can try and make an argument that the scripture has a different meaning, but you cannot say that Catholic teaching is unbiblical. I used to think that, but when the Spirit showed me, and I submitted to the authority of His Church, I was given grace to grow in love for God and it has not stopped cleansing me. I can give you my testimony if you want to hear it, but I am interested in yours

The Angel saved you from harm and you are now more intelligent after you quit drugs than when you were before you stated them. Can you tell me about that?

Yeah, I can tell you about it.

When I was i high school I took algebra 1 and 2. I got straight c's in algebra 1 and had to drop out of algebra 2 as I had an f in it at mid semester.

After I was converted and got married I started collecting old books at yard sales. One was a physics textbook from the late 1800s. I got it home and started reading it and within a half hour or so had figured out the basics of physics. It's all about ratios.

A few years ago I ran into a retired head of a corporate sales department in a Walmart parking lot of all places. He and I hit it off after a remark I made when walking past while he was putting his groceries in the back of his SUV. He and I talked for a half hour to an hour about everything from politics to our past. For some reason I told him about all the reading I've done during my life and mentioned the physics book I had quickly scanned back in the eighties and said physics was based on ratios. He didn't comment on my statement and our conversation moved on to other things. Ten or fifteen minutes later he said, you're right. I couldn't figure out where that came from so asked him what he meant and he said you're right about physics being all about ratios. This guy had an MBA and a PHD in math and he'd never realized it before. That gave me quite a confidence boost. He also told me that with all the self education I have accumulated over time from all the reading I do he thought I had at least the equivalent of a masters degree as I have read a lot of history, philosophy, politics, economics, plus a lot more. My innate curiosity drives me to read a lot. It's another one of those attributes God created in me. I take no credit for any of it as it comes to me as naturally as breathing.

I believe God has a special task for all of us and He puts us in contact with the right person at the right time to accomplish His purposes as He did with king of MedoPersia, Cyrus. He's done that several times in my life. So He has some task for me that I'm only beginning to understand at age 70. He has a plan for your life too. For all of us.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus forgives our sins, but sin also requires a temporal punishment.

It already has one in the form of death. Also by the way, while parents can certainly use corporal punishment, it is forbidden under the Apostolic Canons and other canons of the early church for those in Holy Orders to strike anyone in an official capacity, so a penance, which can be prescribed but is not required, for spiritual healing* (Orthodox priests only rarely issue penances), cannot include corporal punishment.

*As opposed to satisfying the innovative scholastic theology of judicial satisfaction introduced by Anselm of Canterbury.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yes we have. We do not condone premarital sex, or extra marital sex. We also don't condone divorce on anything other than Biblical grounds or spousal abuse. The church, any church, is not responsible for the actions of individuals. Their behavior is between them and God. When the church attempts to get into the place of God it is severely overstepping its bounds. Open sin is not to be tolerated though as sin in the camp destroys the spirituality of the church as a whole, i.e. the example of Aachan.

However, we need to be forgiving of sinners as God is very forgiving. Look at His example with the nations of Israel and Judah. They finally had to murder Jesus before He said they had gone too far to be forgiven as a nation.

Indeed. It might interest you to know that in churches where confessions are heard, the penitent does not confess to the presbyter but rather to our Savior who will return as Judge, and then the presbyter pronounces absolution in the name of Jesus Christ. However in some churches, clericalism took over, where clergy failed to make it clear who the laity were confessing to, and thus made themselves mediators where the only mediator is Christ our Lord, God and Savior.

It was for this reason that following the Protestant Reformation, Protestant churches like the Church of England added congregational confessions and absolutions which make this relationship, where it is God who hears the confession and grants forgiveness, with the presbyter merely proclaiming this, clear, and likewise such language exists in the private oracular confession available in the Eastern Orthodox Church. The presbyters expressly declare that the confession is being made to Christ our God, and not them, and the penitent confesses facing an icon of Christ.

 

[The Liturgist]

I couldn't figure out where that came from so asked him what he meant and he said you're right about physics being all about ratios.

Minor nitpick, but that is only true in the case of classical and quantum mechanics. In the case of quantum mechanics, while ratios are important, for example, the difference between two isotopes of an element involves a difference between the number of neutrons in the nucleus, quantum mechanics is more about probabilities than ratios, since the behavior of very small particles is probabilistic and can only be reliably characterized using statistical analysis.

The semiconductor industry is starting to encounter this very directly since the extremely small features on the latest process nodes achieved using EUV lithography, where transistors can be as small as three nanometers at present, is approaching the scale where eventually quantum fluctuations will interfere with reliable operation to such an extent that it will make further reductions in feature size impossible, but fortunately there are other areas where we can improve performance, for example, by combining processing and memory and thus removing the bottleneck inherent in von Neumann computer architecture (this bottleneck being the bandwidth between the logic and memory components and also between them and input/output).

 

[boughtwithaprice]

It already has one in the form of death. Also by the way, while parents can certainly use corporal punishment, it is forbidden under the Apostolic Canons and other canons of the early church for those in Holy Orders to strike anyone in an official capacity, so a penance, which can be prescribed but is not required, for spiritual healing* (Orthodox priests only rarely issue penances), cannot include corporal punishment.

*As opposed to satisfying the innovative scholastic theology of judicial satisfaction introduced by Anselm of Canterbury.

Ok that sounds nice, but do we use the confessional as a get out of jail free card? This would mock the justice of God.

Sin has consequences and a repentant sinner would mitigate them as much as possible. Zachaus have half of his fortune away and restored four fold to anyone he defrauded. He did not just go to confession and just say ok I am forgiven.

The thief on the cross had to go through the agonizing death of crucifixion before he attained paradise. He did not mock Jesus and demand to be let off the cross as the other thief did

If we say that Christ paid it all and we need not do penance. (Not implying the is what you say, but hypothetically), then for each sin we commit, we heap the punishment for it on our Lord. Can we really say we love Him if we do that? Is it not more fitting to stop sinning and mitigate the consequences of our sin as much as possible?
If we don’t know how to do that, then it should be the subject of our prayers to the Lord. What would you have me do? Let it be done to me according to your word. Not my will, but thine be done. That is the meaning of penance.

Jesus tell us to make peace with our adversary as he is taking you to court, else you will not get out of prison until you have paid the uttermost farthing. That is purgatory

One can say that they do not believe in Purgatory, but that has no bearing on whether it is true. Unfortunately for the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy, God is not dependent on our faith. He is there all the time, we need faith to see Him.
One may not believe in purgatory, but given your knowledge of the justice of God, do you want to take that chance?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Minor nitpick, but that is only true in the case of classical and quantum mechanics. In the case of quantum mechanics, while ratios are important, for example, the difference between two isotopes of an element involves a difference between the number of neutrons in the nucleus, quantum mechanics is more about probabilities than ratios, since the behavior of very small particles is probabilistic and can only be reliably characterized using statistical analysis.

The semiconductor industry is starting to encounter this very directly since the extremely small features on the latest process nodes achieved using EUV lithography, where transistors can be as small as three nanometers at present, is approaching the scale where eventually quantum fluctuations will interfere with reliable operation to such an extent that it will make further reductions in feature size impossible, but fortunately there are other areas where we can improve performance, for example, by combining processing and memory and thus removing the bottleneck inherent in von Neumann computer architecture (this bottleneck being the bandwidth between the logic and memory components and also between them and input/output).

Minor nitpick here. Quantum mechanics is observed statistically because we lack the ability to directly observe its behavior.

Statistics are an unreliable way to come to the conclusion of truth. Their only power is an attempt to eliminate the possibility of random chance in observing an event, and not the direct observation of that event.

It may get us to where we can use quantum computers by observation but not being any closer to how quantum mechanics actually works.
It is like splitting hairs, but a significant split nonetheless

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yeah, I can tell you about it.

When I was i high school I took algebra 1 and 2. I got straight c's in algebra 1 and had to drop out of algebra 2 as I had an f in it at mid semester.

After I was converted and got married I started collecting old books at yard sales. One was a physics textbook from the late 1800s. I got it home and started reading it and within a half hour or so had figured out the basics of physics. It's all about ratios.

A few years ago I ran into a retired head of a corporate sales department in a Walmart parking lot of all places. He and I hit it off after a remark I made when walking past while he was putting his groceries in the back of his SUV. He and I talked for a half hour to an hour about everything from politics to our past. For some reason I told him about all the reading I've done during my life and mentioned the physics book I had quickly scanned back in the eighties and said physics was based on ratios. He didn't comment on my statement and our conversation moved on to other things. Ten or fifteen minutes later he said, you're right. I couldn't figure out where that came from so asked him what he meant and he said you're right about physics being all about ratios. This guy had an MBA and a PHD in math and he'd never realized it before. That gave me quite a confidence boost. He also told me that with all the self education I have accumulated over time from all the reading I do he thought I had at least the equivalent of a masters degree as I have read a lot of history, philosophy, politics, economics, plus a lot more. My innate curiosity drives me to read a lot. It's another one of those attributes God created in me. I take no credit for any of it as it comes to me as naturally as breathing.

I believe God has a special task for all of us and He puts us in contact with the right person at the right time to accomplish His purposes as He did with king of MedoPersia, Cyrus. He's done that several times in my life. So He has some task for me that I'm only beginning to understand at age 70. He has a plan for your life too. For all of us.

He has a plan for our lives, but it is to lead us to the truth, not necessarily in a way that pleases our senses, and more often than not, great spiritual love is painful, as our senses aka our flesh is at war with the spirit. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and follow Him.

I can say that I lived most of my life to please myself. I thought life was easy and I could skate on through. Thankfully God loves me and He chastises those whom he loves. I got hit hard. Betrayal, loss, humility, shame, but I was like Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinnie when he says, “I could use a good a— kicking” that happened literally twice beaten to a pulp, but no long term injuries just shame at my abject arrogance that deserved it. Nothing like divine retribution to teach one a lesson.
Other times I placed my trust in social status and thought if I could just rise to the top of the social ladder, I could have an easy life. I asked God and he let me go from homelessness which is the bottom 1% of the country, to the top 1% in under 20years.

You knew that human weakness makes me think that I deserved it. I worked hard and I made it, but God let me know that He was in charge, and His purpose for me was not riches and the esteem of the world, but to know Him and love Him forever. He showed me the futility of wealth and I could lose it at any time. Swim with the sharks and get bit.

My career was not smooth sailing and I certainly am not on easy street. Fired from two jobs, resigned from three, let go from one and got it back but at reduced pay. Two failed marriages, multiple failed relationships, emotional highs and lows, extreme loneliness, like the Bob Seger song against the wind. Surrounded by strangers I though were my friends, even by Pastors and those that said were my Christian friends.

You would think that I would have become bitter and for a time I was, but God never gave up. People would not understand that I heard God laughing at me. They thought I was paranoid or scrupulous or in despair, it was not like that.
It was the laughter of friendship, of a father over a son. It was if He said, you are an idiot, you have majorly destroyed your life and have not listened to a word I said, but you are my son, I love you. Are you ready for Me to get you on the right path now? Yes Lord, good then let’s go. Forget about this world, do not wish for the easy path. Satan uses that to distract you. Take the path of poverty, contempt, and humility vs the path of wealth, vain glory and pride, and I will lead you home.

I don’t expect anyone to understand or agree, but it happened to me, and the grace I received could not be from the evil one, because Satan does not cast out Satan. Satan wanted me to hide in the dark under the illusion of safety, but I came into the light as a vampire would see the sun and allowed myself to be burned. Oh it’s worth it. God is true to His word

 

[The Liturgist]

Minor nitpick here. Quantum mechanics is observed statistically because we lack the ability to directly observe its behavior.

This is a common misconception. Things like wave-particle duality have been experimentally verified, and are intrinsic to these systems. And as Werner Heisenberg pointed out, there is no reason for us to expect that extremely small objects should behave exactly like macroscopic objects, since the life of a bacterium, an ant and an elephant are themselves so vastly different, and subatomic particles are on such a smaller scale compared to any form of life that we should simply accept the consistent experimental results

Indeed our technological progress that has resulted from our understanding of quantum dynamics such as nuclear power and electronics would not be possible had physicists insisted on retaining an a priori assumption that subatomic particles would behave according to the prescripts of human intuition.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

This is a common misconception. Things like wave-particle duality have been experimentally verified, and are intrinsic to these systems. And as Werner Heisenberg pointed out, there is no reason for us to expect that extremely small objects should behave exactly like macroscopic objects, since the life of a bacterium, an ant and an elephant are themselves so vastly different, and subatomic particles are on such a smaller scale compared to any form of life that we should simply accept the consistent experimental results

Indeed our technological progress that has resulted from our understanding of quantum dynamics such as nuclear power and electronics would not be possible had physicists insisted on retaining an a priori assumption that subatomic particles would behave according to the prescripts of human intuition.

Yes I said statistics is useful in observed phenomena but don’t exactly delve into the nature of the phenomena itself. Think of it like we can see what it does, but we don’t know exactly how it does it. Similar to gravity, it is an observed phenomenon

Observations are useful when they are consistent, but they do not explain

 

[Gary K]

Minor nitpick, but that is only true in the case of classical and quantum mechanics. In the case of quantum mechanics, while ratios are important, for example, the difference between two isotopes of an element involves a difference between the number of neutrons in the nucleus, quantum mechanics is more about probabilities than ratios, since the behavior of very small particles is probabilistic and can only be reliably characterized using statistical analysis.

The semiconductor industry is starting to encounter this very directly since the extremely small features on the latest process nodes achieved using EUV lithography, where transistors can be as small as three nanometers at present, is approaching the scale where eventually quantum fluctuations will interfere with reliable operation to such an extent that it will make further reductions in feature size impossible, but fortunately there are other areas where we can improve performance, for example, by combining processing and memory and thus removing the bottleneck inherent in von Neumann computer architecture (this bottleneck being the bandwidth between the logic and memory components and also between them and input/output).

When you speak of quantum mechanics you're way over my head. I only have a high school education and a 2 year technical degree in Industrial Maintenance Technology. I said the basics of physics.

 

[Gary K]

He has a plan for our lives, but it is to lead us to the truth, not necessarily in a way that pleases our senses, and more often than not, great spiritual love is painful, as our senses aka our flesh is at war with the spirit. Christ calls us to deny ourselves and follow Him.

I can say that I lived most of my life to please myself. I thought life was easy and I could skate on through. Thankfully God loves me and He chastises those whom he loves. I got hit hard. Betrayal, loss, humility, shame, but I was like Joe Pesci in My Cousin Vinnie when he says, “I could use a good a— kicking” that happened literally twice beaten to a pulp, but no long term injuries just shame at my abject arrogance that deserved it. Nothing like divine retribution to teach one a lesson.
Other times I placed my trust in social status and thought if I could just rise to the top of the social ladder, I could have an easy life. I asked God and he let me go from homelessness which is the bottom 1% of the country, to the top 1% in under 20years.

You knew that human weakness makes me think that I deserved it. I worked hard and I made it, but God let me know that He was in charge, and His purpose for me was not riches and the esteem of the world, but to know Him and love Him forever. He showed me the futility of wealth and I could lose it at any time. Swim with the sharks and get bit.

My career was not smooth sailing and I certainly am not on easy street. Fired from two jobs, resigned from three, let go from one and got it back but at reduced pay. Two failed marriages, multiple failed relationships, emotional highs and lows, extreme loneliness, like the Bob Seger song against the wind. Surrounded by strangers I though were my friends, even by Pastors and those that said were my Christian friends.

You would think that I would have become bitter and for a time I was, but God never gave up. People would not understand that I heard God laughing at me. They thought I was paranoid or scrupulous or in despair, it was not like that.
It was the laughter of friendship, of a father over a son. It was if He said, you are an idiot, you have majorly destroyed your life and have not listened to a word I said, but you are my son, I love you. Are you ready for Me to get you on the right path now? Yes Lord, good then let’s go. Forget about this world, do not wish for the easy path. Satan uses that to distract you. Take the path of poverty, contempt, and humility vs the path of wealth, vain glory and pride, and I will lead you home.

I don’t expect anyone to understand or agree, but it happened to me, and the grace I received could not be from the evil one, because Satan does not cast out Satan. Satan wanted me to hide in the dark under the illusion of safety, but I came into the light as a vampire would see the sun and allowed myself to be burned. Oh it’s worth it. God is true to His word

I have never had a desire to be rich. I have given my last 20 dollars away in my past to a hitch hiker who I thought needed it more than I did. My cupboard and refrigerator were stocked and I had enough gas to last the week so I gave it away. I picked him up on the way to church and gave him a ride 10 miles out of my way. I can't even tell you why I picked him up as I have only picked up a hitch hiker once before and none since. . I think God knew he was hungry and put me in the right spot to give him the money he needed to eat on till he reached his destination.

The only other guy I ever picked up was walking in a spring snowstorm about 2:00 am. He and I later became good friends. He had a rich daddy in SoCal and had flown home for the holidays and was on his way back to a private school He drove a really nice BMW with dual Weber carbs that would really go and corner.

I know what you mean about being talked to. My guardian angel has spoken to me twice. Both times trying to keep me from serious injury. I was too emotionally messed up to listen and I came close to dying in two car wrecks because I didn't listen to him.

It seems God has a purpose for me as all my life there has been a big time spiritual struggle going on between God and the devil. I'm finally beginning to get it, but I'm already 70 and have ruined my health. So He has a big job for me some where. One of these days in the near future I'll know what it is and it will be the greatest experience/adventure I've ever known.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I have never had a desire to be rich. I have given my last 20 dollars away in my past to a hitch hiker who I thought needed it more than I did. My cupboard and refrigerator were stocked and I had enough gas to last the week so I gave it away. I picked him up on the way to church and gave him a ride 10 miles out of my way. I can't even tell you why I picked him up as I have only picked up a hitch hiker once before and none since. . I think God knew he was hungry and put me in the right spot to give him the money he needed to eat on till he reached his destination.

The only other guy I ever picked up was walking in a spring snowstorm about 2:00 am. He and I later became good friends. He had a rich daddy in SoCal and had flown home for the holidays and was on his way back to a private school He drove a really nice BMW with dual Weber carbs that would really go and corner.

I know what you mean about being talked to. My guardian angel has spoken to me twice. Both times trying to keep me from serious injury. I was too emotionally messed up to listen and I came close to dying in two car wrecks because I didn't listen to him.

It seems God has a purpose for me as all my life there has been a big time spiritual struggle going on between God and the devil. I'm finally beginning to get it, but I'm already 70 and have ruined my health. So He has a big job for me some where. One of these days in the near future I'll know what it is and it will be the greatest experience/adventure I've ever known.

I understand what you are saying, but we need not expect a grand work to come to our lives. It has no bearing on our salvation

Consider God’s word

I desire obedience rather than sacrifice

The story of the widow that gave two pennies. Jesus praised her action rather than the earthly effect of her work.

There will be many people at the throne of grace that say they have done many wonderful works but God will say I never knew you.

This is what it means to say we are not saved by works, but we still must cooperate with grace.
Jesus never tells us to just believe in Him and do nothing, but strive for obedience and not to be seen of men.
Prayer Fasting and almsgiving are works that the Catholic Church tells us to do. They are works that we use to discipline our flesh, and Jesus told us how to do them. When you pray, pray in secret, when you fast do what you can to not let others know you are fasting, when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Your Father in heaven who sees in secret will reward you openly.

Those that pray, fast and give alms to be seen of men and receive their respect have already received their reward. If we are not to do works as Christians why would Jesus distinguish how we should do them?

The other scripture that may cause confusion in some is let your light shine before men, and they will see the good that you do and give glory to God. These are not works that earn the praise of men, but cause them to wonder. These are acts of obedience.

I used to think this meant give verbal testimony and lead others to Jesus. Nope, that work falls under the first category. If people see you as a man that talks a good game and convinces many people to come to a verbal pronouncement of Jesus, you have received your reward.

The Catholic Church teaches that the works to be seen before men are acts of obedience. Love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you. Be as a little child and learn the faith, think not that you are good enough on your own, but take the counsel of those that have gone before you. Do we obey Jesus in what He says?
He says deny yourself and take up your cross. Do we deny our fleshly appetites and follow His commands regarding them? Do we take counsel from the early Church and keep Christianity as a consistent Gospel? Or are we too cool for school and think we know better because we are modern? Do we mortify our flesh and take the path of poverty, contempt, and humility, or would we rather have wealth, vain glory, and pride?
Answers to these questions tell us if we are one the path to life, waiting for a grand gesture or an amazing work that may come, but we have to not let it distract us from what we should be doing.

The Catholic Church teaches discipline in these works. Prayer is important and a daily prayer life is essential for the Christian. Some accuse us of repetitive prayers and vain speaking, but this would only be true if we were looking for the praise of men, or we thought God does not hear us so we have to repeat ourselves. That is not the case. We use repetitive prayer as a form of discipline, the way a body builder uses repetitive motion to strengthen his muscles. God knows what we need before we ask, but our flesh is weak. So we use repetitive prayer to remind us of what God has done and meditate on His wondrous deeds. It gets the focus off of ourselves and on the Lord. A prayer life gets us a chance to meditate on the Lord and the repetition disciplines our body to say holy things instead of vanity. The Rosary is a common repetitive prayer I which we contemplate 20 mysteries of our salvation along with Scriptural and catechetical references of each. It is not a magic spell, though some may say it that way, just as some may rub weights on their skin and not grow strong. The Rosary is ineffective unless used properly

We discipline our bodies to take our hearts off of the things of this world, and focus on obeying God. That is more useful than hoping for a grand plan. Just as marriage is a sacrifice as one spouse gives themselves to the other, it gets quite boring at times, but if we stick with it we are rewarded with a family and we pass from this world surrounded by loved ones. Those that pursue pleasure frequently have no one after a while and die alone. Repetitive prayer is boring just like lifting weights is boring and marriage is boring, but if we sacrifice our time to do it, we are rewarded with a deeper relationship with God in obedience than if we wile away the hours waiting for a grand gesture that may or may never come.

That is Christian teaching. Paul knew that the Christian life is hard when we sacrifice and boring when we don’t make these grand gestures and get amazed by our work for the Lord. That is why he said, if Christ be not raised we are among men most miserable. We sacrifice our flesh to the Lord in this world in order to have eternal joy with the Lord in heaven