A Christmas reflection

[Paidiske]

*Note: this thread is in the Egalitarian forum*

Came across this on FB and it made me tear up, so thought it was worth sharing:

''sometimes I wonder
if Mary breastfed Jesus.
if she cried out when he bit her
or if she sobbed when he would not latch.
and sometimes I wonder
if this is all too vulgar
to ask in a church
full of men
without milk stains on their shirts
or coconut oil on their breasts
preaching from pulpits off limits to the Mother of God.
but then i think of feeding Jesus,
birthing Jesus,
the expulsion of blood
and smell of sweat,
the salt of a mother’s tears
onto the soft head of the Salt of the Earth,
feeling lonely
and tired
hungry
annoyed
overwhelmed
loving
and i think,
if the vulgarity of birth is not
honestly preached
by men who carry power but not burden,
who carry privilege but not labor,
who carry authority but not submission,
then it should not be preached at all.
because the real scandal of the Birth of God
lies in the cracked nipples of a
14 year old
and not in the sermons of ministers
who say women
are too delicate
to lead.''
-Kaitlin Hardy Shetler

 

[bekkilyn]

That's beautiful!

 

[John Helpher]

Mother of God.

I can appreciate the poem trying to reveal proud, arrogant, ignorant, male attitudes; those are genuine problems, but the author seems to go to the opposite extreme with this mother of God stuff. Mary was a vessel. She was pretty sincere, but she wasn't perfect; at one point she even attempted to use her familial position as Jesus' biological mother to influence his favor, but Jesus responded with, "Who is my mother and brothers? Those who obey me are my mother and brothers". (Luke 8:19-21)

That's the gospel.

 

[Paidiske]

"Mother of God" is a term for Mary that goes back to the earliest centuries of the church, though. I would think the author of the poem is referencing that long tradition.

 

[John Helpher]

"Mother of God" is a term for Mary that goes back to the earliest centuries of the church, though. I would think the author of the poem is referencing that long tradition.

But, Mary isn't the mother of God. She's a human vessel God used to introduce the ultimate revelation of himself to humanity in a way they could relate to. Calling her the "mother of God" implies an authority that is not hers.

 

[Paidiske]

But, Mary isn't the mother of God. She's a human vessel God used to introduce the ultimate revelation of himself to humanity in a way they could relate to. Calling her the "mother of God" implies an authority that is not hers.

"Mother of God" isn't really about Mary, though. It's a way of emphasising the full divinity of Christ; that the child whom Mary carried - whose mother she was - really was fully God.

And, in this instance, referencing that term highlights the irony that even with that exalted-seeming title, Mary would be denied any authority or leadership role in many churches.

 

[John Helpher]

"Mother of God" isn't really about Mary, though.

the child whom Mary carried - whose mother she was

Mmmm, sounds like it's about Mary. If it wasn't really about Mary then there would be no reason to refer to his as "the mother of God". You'd just say Mary.

Mary would be denied any authority or leadership role in many churches

Yeah, because the unfair men don't recognize that she's the mother of God. Like I said, men have a long history of being arrogant, unfair, cruel, selfish, and ignorant. There's no denying that. But, you don't fix that by lifting up Mary as though she is the mother of God.

Jesus didn't call her mother; in fact he made a point of calling her woman. He made it clear that her biological connection to him did not connote some kind of special, spiritual status. (Luke 8:19-21).

It's not that he didn't love her or that she didn't have some special place in God's heart, (the angel clearly said that she was favored among women), but, it is actual blasphemous to suggest that she is the mother of God, as this suggests she has authority over God.

 

[Paidiske]

Mmmm, sounds like it's about Mary. If it wasn't really about Mary then there would be no reason to refer to his as "the mother of God". You'd just say Mary.

Can I suggest that rather than debate it with me, you look at the history of the term? I'd suggest a survey of Nestorianism and the Council of Ephesus as a starting point. You will see that the term relates to Christological debate.

It's not that he didn't love her or that she didn't have some special place in God's heart, (the angel clearly said that she was favored among women), but, it is actual blasphemous to suggest that she is the mother of God, as this suggests she has authority over God.

No, in context, it does not imply that. And I disagree that it is blasphemous to use this way of referring to Mary in order to highlight Jesus' divinity.

That said, the author of this poem used a very well-established and mostly uncontroversial term for Mary to make her point. I'd appreciate it if we could avoid taking this thread entirely off topic by debating that.

 

[John Helpher]

referring to Mary in order to highlight Jesus' divinity.

So, referring to Mary as "The mother of God" is all about glorifying Jesus, huh? That's not what Jesus said; he said, "Who are my mother and brothers? Those who obey me are my mother and brothers". He was deliberately trying to move away from the familial connection. Calling her "The mother of God" works against that effort.

Don't forget that he also said, " If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:26)

A lot of people get confused about this because Jesus said we should love one another; why would he say we should also hate our closest family? For the exact reason why it's not okay to refer to Mary as the mother of God; we should hate any instance where our family connections interfere with our spiritual relationships.

 

[Gregorikos]

Mmmm, sounds like it's about Mary. If it wasn't really about Mary then there would be no reason to refer to his as "the mother of God". You'd just say Mary.



Yeah, because the unfair men don't recognize that she's the mother of God. Like I said, men have a long history of being arrogant, unfair, cruel, selfish, and ignorant. There's no denying that. But, you don't fix that by lifting up Mary as though she is the mother of God.

Jesus didn't call her mother; in fact he made a point of calling her woman. He made it clear that her biological connection to him did not connote some kind of special, spiritual status. (Luke 8:19-21).

It's not that he didn't love her or that she didn't have some special place in God's heart, (the angel clearly said that she was favored among women), but, it is actual blasphemous to suggest that she is the mother of God, as this suggests she has authority over God.

Jesus is God. Mary is his mother. I don't refer to her by that title myself, but I get it. It's been around a long time. - Theotokos

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't particularly agree with the "Mother of God" title msyelf, but is there some reason why we have to be so obsessed with that one thing that we can't enjoy the poem for what it is? And the others are correct that it's a title used in the tradition of some churches and probably within the tradition of the poem's author.

 

[John Helpher]

I don't particularly agree with the "Mother of God" title msyelf,

Why not?

 

[bekkilyn]

Why not?

 

[John Helpher]

It's not that I can't take a hint; it's that I don't understand what you're saying. I mean, if you are hinting, it's not working and I guess you see that as my problem, but it really does seem like it'd be simpler if you stopped playing around with hints and just spoke clearly.

What did you mean by:

I don't particularly agree with the "Mother of God" title msyelf

 

[bekkilyn]

It's not that I can't take a hint; it's that I don't understand what you're saying. I mean, if you are hinting, it's not working and I guess you see that as my problem, but it really does seem like it'd be simpler if you stopped playing around with hints and just spoke clearly.

What did you mean by:

If you read past the comma of the part of my post that you quoted, you would probably have a much easier time with the hint.

 

[John Helpher]

If you read past the comma of the part of my post that you quoted, you would probably have a much easier time with the hint.

I still don't get it. Would you mind not playing around with hints and just speak clearly? Why did you say,

I don't particularly agree with the "Mother of God" title msyelf

 

[bekkilyn]

I still don't get it. Would you mind not playing around with hints and just speak clearly? Why did you say,

If this was the appropriate thread for a discussion over whether or not the "Mother of God" title is valid, or why we like or dislike it, or what we think or don't think about it, I might choose to answer the question, but probably not.

 

[Gregorikos]

I still don't get it. Would you mind not playing around with hints and just speak clearly? Why did you say,

You're being deliberately obtuse in order to get her to enter the argument you want to have with her. Everyone here sees right through your charade. Now go ahead and do it some more. Act innocent like you don't know what I'm talking about, and pretend your feelings are hurt.

 

[John Helpher]

If this was the appropriate thread for a discussion over whether or not the "Mother of God" title is valid,

Well, it was part of the OP and I don't think there's anything to suggest it would be inappropriate to discuss here, but you've made it clear that you'd rather not. I accept that. Until next time.

 

[John Helpher]

repeat