The Danger of "Keeping Sabbath."

guevaraj · May 13, 2024

Grafted In said:
Can we make ourselves more rightious by observing one day to worship God when Christ in us worships The Father moment by moment for us and in us every moment?

Brother, this is a human answer that contradicts Paul's following message in Hebrews.

Mercy Shown said:
In the end there is no harm in observing a day for the lord if it is out of a greatful heart for His imputed righteousness. The danger is when we think we can eran merit with God for doing something, no matter what it is. We were created for good works, but they are downstream from our salvation and renewal in the Holy Spirit. These things are God's doings.

Being late for the Sabbath by half a day does not allow you to enter God's rest, according to Paul in the book of Hebrews. God punished those that died in the desert for their disobedience by not allowing them to enter His Sabbath for 40 years, with Manna in the desert being half a day too late to enter the Sabbath near Jerusalem. In the book of Hebrews, the Sabbath kept as the seventh day of the week is corrected from human tradition by telling us that, during the 40 years they kept the Sabbath with Manna, they kept the wrong Sabbath, which does not enter God's rest by being late by half a day when the Sabbath is earlier in Jerusalem than the seventh day of the week. Joshua did not get the Sabbath wrong in Jerusalem, that Jesus kept as our model "Spirit" to do the same as Jesus. Joshua got the days of the week wrong, which makes their human tradition of the Sabbath wrong everywhere beside Jerusalem.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)

The days of the week during the 40 years in the desert were from morning to morning, as revealed in the following passage where they are given two portions of Manna on the previous day because there will be no Manna tomorrow. Importantly, the bad news that there will be no quail tomorrow if the next day begins in the "evening" is not mentioned, because they will eat quail in the "evening" before Manna is the first thing they will not have the next day. The quail not mentioned clearly shows the days of the week beginning in the morning.

On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much as usual—four quarts for each person instead of two. Then all the leaders of the community came and asked Moses for an explanation. He told them, “This is what the LORD commanded: Tomorrow will be a day of complete rest, a holy Sabbath day set apart for the LORD. So bake or boil as much as you want today, and set aside what is left for tomorrow.” So they put some aside until morning, just as Moses had commanded. And in the morning the leftover food was wholesome and good, without maggots or odor. Moses said, “Eat this food today, for today is a Sabbath day dedicated to the LORD. There will be no food on the ground today. (Exodus 16:22-25 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Bob S · May 13, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
If a person keeps the sabbath onto the lord because He saved them, praise God; if a bother or sister keeps all days alike onto the lord for their salvation, praise the. Lord.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. He brought to an end the Law and the prophecies about Him. Those who insist on adhering to the old covenant laws that Jesus came to do away are not honoring Him. Jews are no longer obligated to "keep" days. All mankind are now free to worship corporately any day we choose. No one is obliged to keep any rules concerning how Israel was to keep a day Holy.

I love your posts.

Grafted In · May 13, 2024

I do not have the wisdom nor do I have the level of understanding of scripture you have.
But I see precious little written about the Sabath in the Gospels or the letters to the Gentiles.
Why do you suppose Paul and others who preached to the Gentiles would omit such a serious matter?
The Gentiles next to nothing of the Sabaths or Feast Days of the Lord.
Why were they not exported to observe them?

Bob S · May 13, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
Why would you select this one instance where Jesus gives personal counsel to a specific person and disregard all of the ther places He gives personal counsel to specific individuals.

Did he tell Mary to keep the commandments to inherit eternal life? Did he tell Matha to keep the commandments inherit eternal life? How about Zacchaeus? The answer is no, no and no. In fact, Jesus never gave a pat answer to the quastion of salvation. He gave specific answers to specific individuals. Which of his disciples were told to keep the commandments in order to be saved? They were told just to follow Him. And what about the demoniac. After Jesus delivered Him from demon possession, did Jesus then invite Him to join the Pastors class to prepare for baptism. Did he instruct him to keep the Sabbath? No, He did not.

This rich young ruler had a greed problem and Jesus' aim was to get at that problem. Telling him to keep all of the commandments was a set up for that very purpose. Jesus knew the man had never kept all of the commandments and He knew that the man thought He did. Jesus revealed to that man that His commandment keeping was nothing but virtue signaling and not true wroship of God.

Of all the people Christ ministered to, how many did he stop to give a lecture to on the keeping of the sabbath. The Sabbath has become an idol to many sabatarians. Not all by any means, but even one is to many. When we concentrate on a single doctrine to the exclusion of the corss, we are in sore need of a new saviour. This is because our favorite doctrines cannot and will not save us. Only Jesus does that and He does it to the uttermost. Our muking about trying to improve on God's salvation is like taking me a crayon to a Rembrandt painting to improve it.

What makes you think that Jesus commandments refers to the ten commandments. Have you never thought that perhaps they refer to the commands Jesus gave such as forgive 70X7. Or cast not your pearls before the swine. What makes you think he was refering to the ten commandments? Here is a short list for you to consider.

1. Repent-Matthew 4:17 Humility

2. Follow Me-Matthew 4:19 Meekness

3. Rejoice-Matthew 5:12 Joyfulness

4. Let Your Light Shine-Matthew 5:16 Generosity

5. Honor God's Law-Matthew 5:17-18 Love

6. Be Reconciled-Matthew 5:24-25 Responsibility

7. Do Not Commit Adultery-Matthew 5:29-30 Self-Control

8. Keep Your Word-Matthew 5:37 Truthfulness

9. Go the Second Mile-Matthew 5:38-42 Deference

10. Love Your Enemies-Matthew 5:44 Creativity

11. Be Perfect-Matthew 5:48 Sincerity

12. Practice Secret Disciplines-Matthew 6:1-18 Faith

13. Lay Up Treasures-Matthew 6:19-21 Thriftiness

14. Seek God's Kingdom-Matthew 6:33 Initiative

15. Judge Not-Matthew 7:1 Discernment

16. Do Not Cast Pearls-Matthew 7:6 Discretion

17. Ask, Seek, and Knock-Matthew 7:7-8 Resourcefulness

18. Do Unto Others-Matthew 7:12 Sensitivity

19. Choose the Narrow Way-Matthew 7:13-14 Decisiveness

20. Beware of False Prophets-Matthew 7:15 Alertness

21. Pray For Laborers-Matthew 9:38 Compassion

22. Be Wise as Serpents-Matthew 10:16 Wisdom

23. Fear Not-Matthew 10:26 Boldness

24. Hear God's Voice-Matthew 11:15 Attentiveness

25. Take My Yoke-Matthew 11:29 Obedience

26. Honor Your Parents-Matthew 15:4 Honor/Reverence

27. Beware of Leaven-Matthew 16:6 Virtue

28. Deny Yourself-Luke 9:23 Determination

29. Despise Not Little Ones-Matthew 18:10 Tolerance

30. Go To Offenders-Matthew 18:15 Justice

31. Beware of Covetousness-Luke 12:15 Contentment

32. Forgive Offenders-Matthew 18:21-22 Forgiveness

33. Honor Marriage-Matthew 19:6 Loyalty

34. Be a Servant-Matthew 20:26-28 Availability

35. Be a House of Prayer-Matthew 21:13 Persuasiveness

36. Ask in Faith-Matthew 21:21-22 Patience

37. Bring in the Poor-Luke 14:12-14 Hospitality

38. Render to Caesar-Matthew 22:19-21 Gratefulness

39. Love the Lord-Matthew 22:37-38 Enthusiasm

40. Love Your Neighbor-Matthew 22:39 Gentleness

41. Await My Return-Matthew 24:42-44 Punctuality

42. Take, Eat, and Drink-Matthew 26:26-27 Thoroughness

43. Be Born Again-John 3:7 Security

44. Keep My Commandments-John 14:15 Diligence

45. Watch and Pray-Matthew 26:41 Endurance

46. Feed My Sheep-John 21:15-16 Dependability

47. Baptize My Disciples-Matthew 28:19 Cautiousness

48. Receive God's Power-Luke 24:49 Orderliness

49. Make Disciples-Matthew 28:20 Flexibility

John tells us in 1Jn 3:19-24 that we belong to the TRUTH if we believe in Jesus and love others as He loves us. All the other "things" people do does not earn salvation.

Bob S · May 13, 2024

Grafted In said:
I do not have the wisdom nor do I have the level of understanding of scripture you have.
But I see precious little written about the Sabath in the Gospels or the letters to the Gentiles.
Why do you suppose Paul and others who preached to the Gentiles would omit such a serious matter?
The Gentiles next to nothing of the Sabaths or Feast Days of the Lord.
Why were they not exported to observe them?

The reason is that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant at Calvary, ushered in the new and better covenant, and ratified it with His own blood.

Gal 3 is a great read. Paul identifies the Galatians as foolish for forsaking Grace for the laws of the old covenant. He went on to tell us the Law WAS until Jesus, verse 19. This corresponds perfectly with Matt 5:16-17.

BNR32FAN · May 13, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
That is a good question. I have wondered that myself. I mean, no offense, but why is your screen name not Commandment-keeping blessings? Perhaps there is an answer in that.

God told the children of Israel how to keep the Sabbath, but if you use the internet on the Sabbath, are you not buying? Do you use electricity on Sabbath? Again, you are buying. Just how to keep the Sabbath can quickly lead to a works posture, and yet how are we to define "Keep" in the command? Is it a free-for-all modern-day truth where each individual must keep it the way they feel is true?

Again, a sabbath day humbly kept the best we can to the Lord will be a blessing to us, but that doesn't mean there aren't dangers in hyperfocusing on 1/10th of the commands.

Certainly, there are Christians who would fall into this category, but we shouldn't assume that all Christians who do not keep the Sabbath the way we feel they should are in this category. I would also advise that those who look to God and decide to disobey what He has asked them to obey have much greater issues with God than the Sabbath.

If one believes that Exodus 20:8-11 is God's direct command for them today, then why would one make excuses for disregarding God's direct command in Exodus 35:2?

I’ve brought up that point before, God didn’t stop giving commandments in Exodus 20 He kept on giving commandments for the next few chapters.

Grafted In · May 13, 2024

guevaraj said:
Brother, human beings have said Jesus replaced His Ten Commandments with an Eleventh Commandment when Jesus asks us to obey "all" His Eleven Commandments in the following passage where, having answered with the previous Ten Commandments, Jesus adds "one more thing you haven't done", bringing the total after Him of Eleven Commandments. The following passage tells us that Jesus has given us an Eleventh Commandment with the phrase "one thing you haven't done", after answering the question with: you know "the commandments"! Jesus' answer makes the "one thing you haven't done" an additional Eleventh Commandment. Consistent with us knowing the additional Eleventh Commandment in the new covenant of following Jesus' example. Paul says, Jesus is our model "Spirit" to follow. We are not to follow Judaism's human system of "law" that sabotaged the Ten Commandments to not remove sin in the resulting sons of Hagar, instead of God's will that we be sons of Sarah obeying His previous Ten Commandments as well as the new Eleventh Commandment.

Once a religious leader asked Jesus this question: “Good Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?” “Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked him. “Only God is truly good. But to answer your question, you know the commandments (entolé): ‘You must not commit adultery. You must not murder. You must not steal. You must not testify falsely. Honor your father and mother.’” The man replied, “I’ve obeyed all these commandments since I was young.” When Jesus heard his answer, he said, “There is still one thing you haven’t done. Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Luke 18:18-22 NLT)

The new Eleventh Commandment above is found in the following passage, where to do "just as I have" is to "follow" His example by keeping a total of Eleven Commandments when Jesus adds one more to the previous Ten Commandments, saying above: "there is still one thing you haven't done".

As soon as Judas left the room, Jesus said, “The time has come for the Son of Man to enter into his glory, and God will be glorified because of him. And since God receives glory because of the Son, he will give his own glory to the Son, and he will do so at once. Dear children, I will be with you only a little longer. And as I told the Jewish leaders, you will search for me, but you can’t come where I am going. So now I am giving you a new commandment (entolé): Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:31-35 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Wasn't the man trying to convince Jesus that he was rightious in and of himself?
I think that is why Jesus asked him to do what He least wanted to do.
The Law is to convince us that we cannot keep it, that we need a Savior. Nicodemus thought by keeping the 10 Commandments that he was fit for the Kingdom of God. Jesus simply showed him by his own coventiousness that he was not.

guevaraj · May 13, 2024

Grafted In said:
Wasn't the man trying to convince Jesus that he was rightious in and of himself?
I think that is why Jesus asked him to do what He least wanted to do.
The Law is to convince us that we cannot keep it, that we need a Savior. Nicodemus thought by keeping the 10 Commandments that he was fit for the Kingdom of God. Jesus simply showed him by his own coventiousness that he was not.

Brother, Jesus is the answer to our struggle with sin to do what God wants, because Jesus lives forever to complete the work that began in us when He first forgave our past sins and will continue to forgive our past sins until we grow through practice to sin no more, as we are "born again" as a child who learns to walk by willing to get up again and again until he no longer falls. Unlike a child, who gets up again and again, Christians today put forth no effort, waiting for Jesus to return when Paul tells us Jesus "has" already given us the victory over sin in our past, and it is written that we will grow to be like Jesus when He returns. This growth through practice, of being "born again" by the Spirit, was available even before Jesus made the cycle faster than the slow, stand-in for Jesus, animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of past sins, as Jesus tells us in the following passage.

There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. “Rabbi,” he said, “we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you.” Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God.” “What do you mean?” exclaimed Nicodemus. “How can an old man go back into his mother’s womb and be born again?” Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.” “How are these things possible?” Nicodemus asked. Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son. And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants.” (John 3:1-21 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Gary K · May 15, 2024

Bob S said:
The reason is that Jesus fulfilled the old covenant at Calvary, ushered in the new and better covenant, and ratified it with His own blood.

Gal 3 is a great read. Paul identifies the Galatians as foolish for forsaking Grace for the laws of the old covenant. He went on to tell us the Law WAS until Jesus, verse 19. This corresponds perfectly with Matt 5:16-17.

Romans 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Are you now a servant of righteousness? If not you are still a servant of sin.

Mercy Shown · May 15, 2024

Gary K said:
Romans 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Are you now a servant of righteousness? If not you are still a servant of sin.

Are you implying that those that do not share your beliefs concerning the sabbath are servants of sin?

Bob S · May 15, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
Are you implying that those that do not share your beliefs concerning the sabbath are servants of sin?

Of course he is. That happens when one does not understand the covenants. People become pseudo-judges of others.

Mercy Shown · May 15, 2024

Bob S said:
Of course he is. That happens when one does not understand the covenants. People become pseudo-judges of others.

There is something so sweet about understanding the impossibility of perfection and then having Christ tell us, “Do not dispair because I have overcome the world.”

Realizing we are only perfect in Christ puts us all equal at the foot of the cross.

guevaraj · May 15, 2024

Bob S said:
That happens when one does not understand the covenants.

Brother, it is the system of law of Judaism that Jesus has freed us from by comparing the slavery of Judaism to sin, with Hagar, because Judaism replaced God's law with human law that keeps the sin, that obeying God's law was meant to remove. All Judaism had to do was obey God as a son of Sarah in God's original plan, made even clearer by Jesus, who obeyed all the laws of God and not the laws of Judaism as our example Spirit to do likewise.

So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law (of Judaism). (Galatians 5:1 NLT overlaid with commentary)

Here is the evidence that when Paul uses the word law, unqualified, Paul is referring to the law of Judaism by comparing Judaism to Hagar.

Tell me, you who want to live under the law (the laws of Judaism that does not remove sin), do you know what the law actually says? (The law says what is sin) The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife. The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise (the promise to remove sin from our character). But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise. These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them (Judaism is enslaved in sin because they sabotaged God's law to not remove sin). And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery (slavery to sin) ~~to the law~~ (added by the translators, not found in the original). But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman (free from sin), and she is our mother. As Isaiah said, “Rejoice, O childless woman, you who have never given birth! Break into a joyful shout, you who have never been in labor! For the desolate woman now has more children than the woman who lives with her husband!” And you, dear brothers and sisters, are children of the promise (the promise to remove sin from our character), just like Isaac. But you are now being persecuted by those who want you to keep the law (the laws of Judaism that does not remove sin), just as Ishmael, the child born by human effort, persecuted Isaac, the child born by the power of the Spirit. But what do the Scriptures say about that? “Get rid of the slave and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” So, dear brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman; we are children of the free woman. (Galatians 4:21-31 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)

Paul makes it clear in the following passage that he wants obedience to God and not obedience to sin. Sin is present in Judaism's human laws that sabotage God's laws to not remove sin, as made clear by Jesus in the next passage, where Judaism's human laws instead of God's laws "shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people's faces".

Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law (of Judaism), does that mean we can go on sinning (lawlessness)? Of course not (don't misunderstand God's grace)! Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey (sin or God)? You can be a slave to sin (lawlessness), which leads to death (like Judaism's example of sabotaging God's Ten Commandments to not remove sin), or you can choose to obey God (Eleven Commandments), which leads to righteous living (freedom from sin). Thank God (Jesus's many forgivenesses as our High Priest allowing us to grow in obedience through practice of the Eleven Commandments)! Once you were slaves of sin (lawlessness), but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you (Eleven Commandments). Now you are free from your slavery to sin (when you obey God's Eleven Commandments), and you have become slaves to righteous living (obeying the Eleven Commandments). (Romans 6:15-18 NLT overlaid with commentary)

Hagar's son to Abraham came from the human will and not from God's will to give Abraham a son through Hagar. Hagar is not the will of God expressed on Mount Sinai but the "human attempt" to fulfill the will of God expressed on Mount Sinai. Therefore, it is not God's laws that are tied to Hagar, but human laws found in Judaism that come from sinful "blind guides" to use laws to accomplish God's will expressed on Mount Sinai, that Jesus says in the following passage: "shut the door of the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces". It is not God's laws expressed on Mount Sinai that "shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces", it is Judaism's human replacement laws for God's laws that "shut the door of the Kingdom of heaven in people's faces".

“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either. “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you cross land and sea to make one convert, and then you turn that person into twice the child of hell you yourselves are! “Blind guides! What sorrow awaits you! For you say that it means nothing to swear ‘by God’s Temple,’ but that it is binding to swear ‘by the gold in the Temple.’ Blind fools! Which is more important—the gold or the Temple that makes the gold sacred? And you say that to swear ‘by the altar’ is not binding, but to swear ‘by the gifts on the altar’ is binding. How blind! For which is more important—the gift on the altar or the altar that makes the gift sacred? When you swear ‘by the altar,’ you are swearing by it and by everything on it. And when you swear ‘by the Temple,’ you are swearing by it and by God, who lives in it. And when you swear ‘by heaven,’ you are swearing by the throne of God and by God, who sits on the throne. (Matthew 23:13-22 NLT)

Mercy Shown said:
Realizing we are only perfect in Christ puts us all equal at the foot of the cross.

It sounds to me like those "who do nothing" in the following passage.

“But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’ “Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Matthew 25:26-30 NLT)

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Mercy Shown · May 15, 2024

guevaraj said:
It sounds to me like those "who do nothing" in the following passage.

“But the master replied, ‘You wicked and lazy servant! If you knew I harvested crops I didn’t plant and gathered crops I didn’t cultivate, why didn’t you deposit my money in the bank? At least I could have gotten some interest on it.’ “Then he ordered, ‘Take the money from this servant, and give it to the one with the ten bags of silver. To those who use well what they are given, even more will be given, and they will have an abundance. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (Matthew 25:26-30 NLT)

It is exactly the opposite. Unfortunately, when we think that works can merit us to God and that we can somehow impress him with our righteousness, we are not dealing with the talents God our master has given us. Legalists promote taking man-made talents of dross and attempting to turn them into silver. But these are not godly talents; they are filthy rags at best.

The talents in this parable are given to us by God: righteousness, grace, love, and perfection. Legalists promote gaining salvation by works instead of accepting perfect salvation from God and becoming ambassadors of God's reconciliation through Jesus Christ.

The legalist would rather discuss what we must do for God rather than what He has done for us. It is the legalist who, if he/she doesn't repent of their own righteousness, will find out too late that they were the ones without any talents of silver from God. That would be most sad indeed.

Gary K · May 15, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
Are you implying that those that do not share your beliefs concerning the sabbath are servants of sin?

What does Paul say? If we are not servants of righteousness we are servants of sin. I'm not implying anything. I'm quoting scripture. If you have a problem with scripture take it up with God.

Mercy Shown · May 16, 2024

Gary K said:
What does Paul say? If we are not servants of righteousness we are servants of sin. I'm not implying anything. I'm quoting scripture. If you have a problem with scripture take it up with God.

You are referring to the same Paul who also said, When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ. (Col 2:13-17)

Legalism tries to parse the law and say that Paul was not referring to the weekly Sabbath but in doing so, it is adding to the scriptures.

When addressing the Roman Church, Paul asked, Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:4-6)

The point is that we should not divide the body of Christ by what we approve of or disapprove of. We are saved by Grace, if we are saved at all. We are not saved by our law keeping.

As Paul says, let’s not condemn others by what we approve but instead glorify God who has roconciled the world to himself through Jesus Christ and appointed His saints as ambassadors of this reconciliation.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we were more like the demoniac and less like the Pharisees. The task set before us us to go and tell the world what God has done for us.

Gary K · May 16, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
You are referring to the same Paul who also said, When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! And having disarmed the powers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a feast, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body that casts it belongs to Christ. (Col 2:13-17)

Legalism tries to parse the law and say that Paul was not referring to the weekly Sabbath but in doing so, it is adding to the scriptures.

When addressing the Roman Church, Paul asked, Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes a special day does so to the Lord; he who eats does so to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:4-6)

The point is that we should not divide the body of Christ by what we approve of or disapprove of. We are saved by Grace, if we are saved at all. We are not saved by our law keeping.

As Paul says, let’s not condemn others by what we approve but instead glorify God who has roconciled the world to himself through Jesus Christ and appointed His saints as ambassadors of this reconciliation.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if we were more like the demoniac and less like the Pharisees. The task set before us us to go and tell the world what God has done for us.

Why do you want to make Paul argue with himself, and with Jesus, who also kept the Sabbath? Who is condemning you? Your own conscience is what is bothering you and making you feel condemned. Why should you feel condemned by what I believe? I don't feel condemned by what you believe in the least no matter how you berate my beliefs.

We aren't saved by grace. We are saved by grace through faith. Interesting that you think that the divine influence upon the human heart, the Holy Spirit, would influence us to break the law of God when Jesus tells us that without being born again through the power of the HS we cannot be saved. Basically you're saying God is arguing with Himself.

Mercy Shown · May 16, 2024

Gary K said:
Why do you want to make Paul argue with himself, and with Jesus, who also kept the Sabbath?

Well, I could ask you the same question based on our conversation. Of course, Paul does not argue with himself.

What you did was to take one text from Paul and generalize it but that text never mentioned The Sabbath.

If you look at Paul’s writings you will see that he very clearly states that salvation is apart from the law. He states that no one who does the works of the law will be justified.

If you dig deeper into Paul you’ll understand that he says that obedience comes from being saved not something we do to be saved.

I also find it quite interesting that when Christ healed of the demoniac he simply told him to go and tell others what God had done for him. He did not give him instruction on the law, the prophets or the Sabbath.

As a matter of fact, can you find a place where Christ focused the way to salvation as being the Sabbath?

He did say that not one jot nor title of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled. When was the law fulfilled if not on the cross?

That is why Paul states clearly that we are not under the law we are under Jesus Christ that’s gonna make us more holy than the law ever could.

The law will remain forever and it is immutable and it’s requirements are perfection. Anything less than perfection and we fall short. That is why we must rely on Christ imputed righteousness which takes us out from under the condemnation of the law and put us under the glorious love of God and Jesus Christ who then work with us and are on our team to help make us holy.

Gary K · May 16, 2024

Mercy Shown said:
Well, I could ask you the same question based on our conversation. Of course, Paul does not argue with himself.

What you did was to take one text from Paul and generalize it but that text never mentioned The Sabbath.

If you look at Paul’s writings you will see that he very clearly states that salvation is apart from the law. He states that no one who does the works of the law will be justified.

If you dig deeper into Paul you’ll understand that he says that obedience comes from being saved not something we do to be saved.

I also find it quite interesting that when Christ healed of the demoniac he simply told him to go and tell others what God had done for him. He did not give him instruction on the law, the prophets or the Sabbath.

As a matter of fact, can you find a place where Christ focused the way to salvation as being the Sabbath?

He did say that not one jot nor title of the law would pass away until all was fulfilled. When was the law fulfilled if not on the cross?

That is why Paul states clearly that we are not under the law we are under Jesus Christ that’s gonna make us more holy than the law ever could.

The law will remain forever and it is immutable and it’s requirements are perfection. Anything less than perfection and we fall short. That is why we must rely on Christ imputed righteousness which takes us out from under the condemnation of the law and put us under the glorious love of God and Jesus Christ who then work with us and are on our team to help make us holy.

So the very law given by the pre incarnate Jesus on Sinai was broken by Jesus? He didn't keep His own law? You just keep getting into stranger and stranger positions. The only human being that never sinned broke the 10 commandments, A very weird idea.

You don't believe Jesus is our Savior? How can He be if He is also a sinner?

Gary K · May 16, 2024

@Mercy Shown

Here is more from Paul and Peter.

Romans 12: 1 I BESEECH you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Philippians 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

2Peter 1: 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

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