The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has set us free from the law of sin and death?

Studyman · May 9, 2024

oikonomia said:
Thanks Studyman for some interesting points to discuss.
I read through all of them, and would like to reply in detail soon.

But could you please help me to get clear on an impression I have about something you wrote previously?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
" I would have to believe that before the Catholic religion added Paul's letters to the Bible, there was no hope for any man, because the Law and Prophets didn't prepare the man of God. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Is there an implication here that the New Testament would have been better off WITHOUT the addition of the thirteen or so
letters authored by the Apostle Paul?

Paul called the Law and the Prophets, "The Gospel of Christ" in Roman's 1. It is there that the righteousness and the wrath of God against all unrighteousness of men is revealed. And also within this same Gospel of Christ, it is taught that the Just shall live by Faith. (Hab. 2:4)

What Paul understood about God, came from the Law of Prophets after the blindness, AKA "the veil" that comes to those who live in sin is removed. (which happens when the heart turns to God as those members of the first church of God under His Prophesied New Priest shows in Acts)

In fact, the entire New Testament, including the Christ's teaching and Paul's, were brought into God's Salvation without ANY of Paul's letters. This is simply an undeniable fact.

For me, I am grateful for Paul's letters as he helps me to understand the Law and Prophets that were written "For my sake no doubt" and for examples to show me the danger of lusting after disobedience, the examples that were written specifically for my admonition, in this time in history, upon whom the ends of the world have come.

Do I believe we are better off without his letters, no. But I also don't believe that mankind was doomed to be a slave to sin until Paul came, because men only had the Law and Prophets, and that was the implication of the philosophy in this thread.

oikonomia said:
Do I detect that your saying "the Catholic religion" (or whoever recognized the canonicity of Paul's letters,) that the Bible
would have been clearer, better, perhaps MORE truthful before this "adding" of Paul's letters occured?

My friend, you are reading a lot into my post. The dispute is between 2 philosophies.

Him's philosophy is that men were slaves to sin until Paul came and told them how to be free from the Law of Sin, because God never shared with us what happened to a man who considers His Words irrelevant.

My understanding is that God detailed for his people in great Spiritual detail, the Law of Sin, and tells men what would come upon them and overtake them, as a result of their sin, which would lead to their destruction.

My understanding of Paul's letters is that they perfectly align with every aspect of the Law and Prophets, and the God promoted therein. So there isn't "more truth" or "less truthful" for me. Paul, Jesus and Moses along with the Prophets, promoted that same Gospel. A Gospel which was given to Israel, who didn't believe it.

oikonomia said:
Could you first clear that position of yours up for me?
Thanks.

I hope this explains my position more clearly and I look forward to furthering our Scriptural discussion.

Studyman · May 9, 2024

Grip Docility said:
When Jesus rebukes these Pharisees and Teachers of the Law, which is more frequently than one might imagine, He makes very strong statements towards them that reveal a cognitive dissonance between their self perception and God's knowledge of their True Hearts.

And there should be greater condemnation for those who preach religious traditions and doctrines of man, over the Word of God. Certainly, a man who promotes lies about God, has a darkness in their heart. But remember, the Jesus "of the bible" says men love darkness. So it seems better to receive correction from scriptures and be humiliated for a time, rather than work so hard to justify the falsehood in order to preserve a man's pride.

Grip Docility said:
In the following passage of scripture, we see Jesus address the Pharisees for saying that He drives out demons by the Power of Beelzebul (Lord of the Flies, Death, aka... Satan)... An interesting thought, in the minds of the Pharisees, Jesus was Evil. This quote is in spoiler format to shorten this post.

Matthew 12:22 Then a demon-possessed man who was blind and unable to speak was brought to Him. He healed him, so that the man[h] could both speak and see. 23 And all the crowds were astounded and said, “Perhaps this is the Son of David!”

24 When the Pharisees heard this, they said, “The man drives out demons only by Beelzebul, the ruler of the demons.”

25 Knowing their thoughts, He told them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. 26 If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, who is it your sons drive them out by? For this reason they will be your judges. 28 If I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you. 29 How can someone enter a strong man’s house and steal his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house. 30 Anyone who is not with Me is against Me, and anyone who does not gather with Me scatters. 31 Because of this, I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy, but the blasphemy against[i] the Spirit will not be forgiven.[j] 32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the one to come.

Now, we get to the meat of the Matter. Before Paul teaches us the "Fruits of the Spirit", Jesus references the Fruit of the Pharisees then eludes to them being "serpents" "vipers" "small s satans"

Can you and I agree that because the Pharisees saw themselves as Law Abiding and of haughty church position that they saw themselves as righteous?

Well of course I agree. What man who adopts one of the many religions of this world, do not see themselves as righteous? And it isn't isolated to the Pharisees according to the Jesus of the Bible. It also is true regarding the "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord. When asked about the future, Jesus warned of a specific religion. Not Islam, not Buddhism or Atheists, not even Jews. The religion that Jesus was most concerned about, was****. Well I'll let Him tell us.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Paul also warns of men who "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ.

So it is undeniable that all of these "many", along with the Pharisees and Sadducees, will consider themselves righteous before God in some manner or another.

Grip Docility said:
A Tree and Its Fruit
Matthew 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad[k] and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34 Brood of vipers! How can you speak good things when you are evil? For the mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.

Do you remember what Paul said the Purpose of the Law is in Romans 3:20 ? What is implied by Romans 4:15, with that in mind?

I do remember, God's Law defines Righteousness, shows us what sin is. The Law cannot forgive sin. Only God and His Appointed Priests can provide for the forgiveness of sin.

HIM · May 9, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Could we then say that the Teachers of the Law thought they were Righteous by the Law, and were a bit more angry with Jesus when Jesus called them on their evil hearts?

No.. we can assume many things but to say one way or another we can’t unless stated. And to make a blanket statement saying this or that applies to all won’t work either.

Grip Docility · May 9, 2024

HIM said:
No.. we can assume many things but to say one way or another we can’t unless stated. And to make a blanket statement saying this or that applies to all won’t work either.

Jesus made that blanket statement in the key to all of the New Testament condemnation scripture….

Matthew Twenty Three

HIM · May 10, 2024

Studyman said:
So I am done here,

If that is the case keep my name and what you think was posted by me out of your conversations in respect to this topic.

Studyman said:
Him's philosophy is that men were slaves to sin until Paul came and told them how to be free from the Law of Sin, because God never shared with us what happened to a man who considers His Words irrelevant.

Never said any of that.

Studyman said:
My understanding is that God detailed for his people in great Spiritual detail, the Law of Sin, and tells men what would come upon them and overtake them, as a result of their sin, which would lead to their destruction.

Yet the fact that the Law of sin Paul speaks of in Romans 7. That sin taken occasion by the commandment slew him and worked all manner of concupiscence. In that the things that He would not he did, And if doing the things that he would not, it was no longer him who did it but the sin that dwelt in him. This he called ANOTHER LAW contrasting it to the Law of God he delights in. This OTHER he sees working in his members. Even though he delights in the law of the God, his flesh serves this Law of the sin.

This other law is not mentioned one time in the Book of the Law as one of the curses. NOT ONCE. You only imply that it does. Deut 28:15 is specific. It says that if we or they do not do all His statues and commandments commanded that THESE curses shall overtake thee. Not whatever studyman or whoever wants to add to the list of curses. These curses , as in the ones mentioned. To add or imply what is not there, is not our place.

Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Studyman said:
My understanding of Paul's letters is that they perfectly align with every aspect of the Law and Prophets, and the God promoted therein. So there isn't "more truth" or "less truthful" for me. Paul, Jesus and Moses along with the Prophets, promoted that same Gospel. A Gospel which was given to Israel, who didn't believe it.

Amen, Hence why Paul paraphrases Deut 30:10-14 in Romans 10:6-8.

Deut 30:10-14 which God said was a NEW Covenant besides the one He gave at Horeb in Deut29:1.

We would be failing the LORD our God if we did not bring attention the mentioning of this New Covenant proceeded the mentioning of these curses to which we just mentioned that fall upon those whom choose their own way rather than God's through His Spirit.

Take note that the NEW COVENANT in Deut 30:10-14 is in the present tense and that the Judgements are not mentioned as being in our hearts and mouths that we can do them. In other words, It has been available since then if not before, considering many have been stated as have been walking with God prior to this which is mentioned in Deut 30.

Deut 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, BESIDES the covenant which he made with them in Horeb.

Deut 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Deut 30:10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
Deut 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
Deut 30:12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
Deut 30:14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Oddly enough most miss this stating of the New Covenant and the fact that it is the same as that which is mentioned in Jeremiah 31:31. It is a shame really because in Deut 30:10-14 is the key to which unlocks the question as to what Law God puts in our hearts and mouths that we do them. Or as in Jeremiah saying, He puts the Law in our hearts and in our minds. These are the commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law that are in our hearts, minds, and mouths that we do them. This He does through His spirit through Christ. And is also the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus that sets us free from the Law of the sin and death that the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law be fulfilled in us who walk after, with the Spirit, in Christ and not after the flesh..

HIM · May 10, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Jesus made that blanket statement in the key to all of the New Testament condemnation scripture….

Matthew Twenty Three

No, just the ones His words applied to.

HIM · May 10, 2024

oikonomia said:
But I was asking more about "the law of the Spirit of life" which has freed us from that law of sin and death.

Is that the law of Moses? That is more of the question I put to both of you.

No it is the Spirit that replaces our Spirit. We are a new creature, created in Christ Jesus. Begotten by the engrafted word, the Law in our hearts and minds. His Word in our hearts and mouths that the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law be fulfilled in us. Who walk after this Spirit and not after the flesh.

oikonomia said:
Thankyou now for both responding something.

You are welcome. May the Lord our God keep us all in His Way, Jesus Christ.

Grip Docility · May 10, 2024

HIM said:
No, just the ones His words applied to.

You know those movie montage things that show things that suddenly add up?

Who taught Paul? Besides Gamaliial.

Studyman · May 10, 2024

HIM said:
This other law is not mentioned one time in the Book of the Law as one of the curses. NOT ONCE. You only imply that it does.
Deut 28:15 is specific. It says that if we or they do not do all His statues and commandments commanded that THESE curses shall overtake thee.

I don't believe God missed or was ignorant of the "specific" curse and vexation Paul experienced and defined before he served the Law of God with his mind. Yet that is what you are preaching here. I know you consider these Words of God irrelevant, but for others reading along, please consider.

"Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep."

What is the fruit of our body? Doing things, Yes? Our works and actions. Was Paul not cursed, by being overtaken by sin and "Doing" what he hates? Are these not fruits of the body? Doth God care for oxen, or for our sakes is this written? Where do men actually find the flesh of Jesus to eat? Have you studied the curses to find the Spiritual meaning, as one would have to do to find the Flesh of Jesus?

It is clear you have not. And yet you are preaching they are irrelevant to Paul's teaching.

God's Word is not irrelevant Him. You can call them irrelevant, but that doesn't make them so. Paul's curse as a Pharisee, was not new to man. And the cure has been given by God to man since the very beginning.

Gen. 4: 7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? "and if thou doest not well", "sin" lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be "his" desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

So then, it's not Cain that killed Abel, but Sin that was in him, causing him to do, that which he would not do.

And how do men rule over sin, or as Paul said, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof."

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (ruled over by the Law of God that I serve, not just delight in)

HIM said:
Not whatever studyman or whoever wants to add to the list of curses. These curses , as in the ones mentioned. To add or imply what is not there, is not our place.

I'm not adding to them HIM. I studied them to find out why God had them written for my admonition. I know exactly what Paul is speaking to, and the Law of Sin that warred against the Law of God within him.

Our perspectives are opposite here because I didn't take a few scriptures, separate them from the rest of the Bible, and create my own doctrine. The curses specified have Spiritual meaning. Blindness, deception, pride, selfishness, self-exaltation, uncontrolled behavior, etc., it's all there, you just can't see it. Or worse, you won't see it because if you do, it means you are in error. And that goes against your rule #1.

43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low. 44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and "thou shalt be the tail".

What is the stranger that was in Paul as a Pharisee? Was it not Sin that was standing at the door, but now is actually in his house?

But sadly, all these Scriptures are irrelevant to you because they bring question to your religious philosophy "

"The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death."

The law above in the clause, law of sin "is not" the law or a law found in the Book of the Law or of the decalogue."

This is simply not true, if the Scriptures are our guide.

HIM said:
Deut 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

As it is to this day.

oikonomia · May 10, 2024

Studyman said:
Paul called the Law and the Prophets, "The Gospel of Christ" in Roman's 1.

What verse specifically would you point to to convince me that "Paul called the Law and the Prophets, "The Gospel of Christ" in Roman's 1?"

Do you mean this? - " . . . the Gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His Son . . . (Rom. 1: 1b,2, 3a)

Romans one says where that Paul called the Law and the Prohets the Gospel of Christ ?

Studyman said:
It is there that the righteousness and the wrath of God against all unrighteousness of men is revealed. And also within this same Gospel of Christ, it is taught that the Just shall live by Faith. (Hab. 2:4)

What Paul understood about God, came from the Law of Prophets after the blindness, AKA "the veil" that comes to those who live in sin is removed. (which happens when the heart turns to God as those members of the first church of God under His Prophesied New Priest shows in Acts)

In fact, the entire New Testament, including the Christ's teaching and Paul's, were brought into God's Salvation without ANY of Paul's letters. This is simply an undeniable fact.

I think now I get to your answer to my question, which basically was - "Would the New Testament be better off without the Catholic Religion adding Paul's letters to the Bible?"

My thoughts on this are the inspiration of Paul's letters was not bestowed by man but discovered by God's people.
And without the epistles of Paul there is NO WAY . . . NO WAY! . . . I could adaquatly grasp by revelation the Gospel of Christ.

The New Testament WITHOUT Romans? . . . Without Ephesians? . . . Without Galatians, Philippians, COLOSSIANS ??
Since that isn't the case it is impossible for me to imagine what the church would be without Paul's completing ministry . . . IF it would
exist at all.

Anyway I praise the Lord that that ISN'T the case with the Bible and especially the New Testament.
Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, (Col. 1:25)

Let me read on to see if I get your concept right.

Studyman said:
For me, I am grateful for Paul's letters as he helps me to understand the Law and Prophets that were written "For my sake no doubt" and for examples to show me the danger of lusting after disobedience, the examples that were written specifically for my admonition, in this time in history, upon whom the ends of the world have come.

I am glad to hear you're grateful for Paul's letters.
Along with them helping you to understand the Law and the Prophets are you thankful also they help us to understand -
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? I am thankful they are indespensable in comprehending the entire New Testament gospels including
books like Acts, Revelation, and probably ALL the other epistles.

Studyman said:
Do I believe we are better off without his letters, no.

Praise the Lord! I'm glad to here that.

Studyman said:
But I also don't believe that mankind was doomed to be a slave to sin until Paul came, because men only had the Law and Prophets, and that was the implication of the philosophy in this thread.

This is a little bit hard for me to follow. Maybe I need to re-read your exchanges with someone else.

But you began by saying the Law and the Prophets were the Gospel of Christ. I thought that is what you said above.
Now you say men "only had the Law and Prophets".

So before the New Testament men had or did not have "the Gospel of Christ" ?
I would say that before Christ's incarnation, perfect life, death, resurrection, and becomming "a life giving Spirit" to indwell them
they did not have "the Gospel of Christ" per se.

Are we saying the same thing in this? Men didn't have the Gospel of Christ. And then one day men HAD and HAVE now the Gospel of
Christ.

And Christ and His apostles and prophets helped us to be enlightened to the nature of that Gospel of Christ.
It was promised before, surely. And even it is written that the Gospel was announced to Abraham. (Gal. 3:8)

But essensially that Gospel was not here and now it is here, Praise the Lord's mercy and grace.
That's what we believe as Christians. Am I right?

By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit, (Ephesians 3:4,5)

Studyman said:
My friend, you are reading a lot into my post. The dispute is between 2 philosophies.

That happens with me sometimes. So I did ask.

Studyman said:
Him's philosophy is that men were slaves to sin until Paul came and told them how to be free from the Law of Sin, because God never shared with us what happened to a man who considers His Words irrelevant.

Well, you know HIM is able to also clarify what he believes.

But it was Jesus Christ, my friend, who told us that the people were slaves to sin.
Paul only repeated with some elaboration what Jesus taught.

Jesus -
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples;
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed and have never yet been enslaved to anyone. How is it that You say, You shall become free? Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.

And the slave does not abide in the house forever; the son does abide forever.
If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed. (John 8:31-36)

The gradual and progressive revelation of truth unvieled to man that the sinner is a slave to sin.
Am I right?

Jesus coming says in that very chapter that He is the light of the world. (v. 12)
He is the very God, the I AM THAT I AM, become a man to accomplish redemption and come to live within us as eternal life.

The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am. (vs. 57,58)

Jesus Christ is the very God in a form in which He can come and Himself live within us - mingling us with God and
building God into man.

What a Gospel!

Studyman said:
My understanding is that God detailed for his people in great Spiritual detail, th

I see how you see this law of sin and death.
For you it really is all the curses enumerated by the warning God in Deuternomy 28.
I don't believe that is exactly the case. But there are I think more important things to see in Romans 6-8.

Anyway, on the encredibly positive side in Romans 8 God has been processed into a consumate life giving Spirit to indwell, unite,
mingle, and blend within man's being. The Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is the ultimate expression of the Triune God for God
to dispense HIMSELF into us.

It is interesting. In some ways I see you and brother HIM kind of saying some of the same thing inspite of debate.

Anyway, this law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus or who has freed us in Christ Jesus is the Triune God's very life
processed through incarnation, human living, death, resurrection, and ascension dispensed into our innermost being our regenerated human spirit.

We should have the boldness to proclaim "Part of my being is God Himself." We may have the boldness to proclaim "Part of my being is Jesus Christ Himself living in me."

Try saying that as the first thing you say in the morning when you wake up. Try it.
You wake up to a new day and say, ie. "Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus. Thankyou you brought God into me. Part of my being is You Lord Jesus.
I love You Lord Jesus. Amen."

Studyman said:
My understanding of Paul's letters is that they perfectly align with every aspect of the Law and Prophets, and the God promoted therein. So there isn't "more truth" or "less truthful" for me. Paul, Jesus and Moses along with the Prophets, promoted that same Gospel. A Gospel which was given to Israel, who didn't believe it.

I hope this explains my position more clearly and I look forward to furthering our Scriptural discussion.

Thanks. Amen to Christians speaking forth God to one another for mutual building up.

I would have another question for both you Studyman and HIM which I may ask HIM latter.

And it is a genuine question.
Do you see any distinction between these two statements?

"That the Law might be fulfilled by us."
And
"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us."

Do you see any difference between "Christ helps us to keep the Law" and "Christ helps us to fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law."

I am not sure sometimes how to help Christians to comprehend grace as Christ being everything for us - everything.
This verses "Jesus Christ will now help us to go back and be successful keepers of the Law of Moses which God gave to him."

"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)

oikonomia · May 10, 2024

HIM said:
No it is the Spirit that replaces our Spirit. We are a new creature, created in Christ Jesus. Begotten by the engrafted word, the Law in our hearts and minds. His Word in our hearts and mouths that the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law be fulfilled in us. Who walk after this Spirit and not after the flesh.

You are welcome. May the Lord our God keep us all in His Way, Jesus Christ.

Thanks HIM.

A few more questions could you bear with about this post?

1.) "Our Spirit" [capital S] you say is replaced by "the Spirit" [again capital S].
Say a little more about the Spirit ( I believe is God ) replaces our "Spirit".

Would this be saying the same thing? "No it is the Spirit that replaces [our Soul] "

2.) You taught me - " that the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law be fulfilled in us. Who walk after this Spirit and not after the flesh. "

This is another way of Paul telling us? - That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom. 8:4 Recovery Version)

For you these are exactly equivalent?
"the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law"
and
"the righteous requirement of the law".

Thanks.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Studyman · May 10, 2024

oikonomia said:
What verse specifically would you point to to convince me that "Paul called the Law and the Prophets, "The Gospel of Christ" in Roman's 1?"

Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (within the Gospel of Christ) "is the righteousness of God revealed" from faith (of Noah and Abraham) to faith (of Malichi): as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed (within the Gospel of Christ) from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness "of men", who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 "Because" that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Paul confirms this truth in 1 Cor. 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

oikonomia said:
Do you mean this? - " . . . the Gospel of God, which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning His
Son . . . (Rom. 1: 1b,2, 3a)

Romans one says where that Paul called the Law and the Prohets the Gospel of Christ ?

I think now I get to your answer to my question basically was - "Would the New Testament be better off without the Catholic Religion adding Paul's letters to the Bible?"

My thoughts on this are the inspiration of Paul's letters was not bestowed by man but discovered by God's people.
And without the epistles of Paul there is NO WAY . . . NO WAY! . . . I could adaquatly grasp by revelation the Gospel of Christ.

And yet Paul did, Peter did as well as the entire first Church of God under God's Prophesied New Priesthood. Zacharias, Simeon and Anna did, and the wise men did as well, before Jesus was even born. And we now have witness of this truth through the New Testament by the eye witnesses of the Christ and the fulfillment of the Prophesies of the Law and Prophets.

These are simply undeniable Biblical Truths.

oikonomia said:
The New Testament WITHOUT Romans? . . . Without Ephesians? . . . Without Galatians, Philippians, COLOSSIANS ??
Since that isn't the case it is impossible for me to imagine what the church would be without Paul's completing ministry . . . IF it would
exist at all.

Well certainly, "many" religious sects and businesses would not exist without Paul's letters that we are warned "many" who come in Christ's Name, would twist to pervert God's Truth. Paul himself said in order to be like Paul, they would "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ. There is no doubt this has taken place on a massive scale. But it was not really any different in the time before "After those days", in my view, as it is written;

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

Would the Catholic religion, or her protestant daughters even exist without Paul's letters? I doubt it. But God's Chruch, and those whose refuge is the Lord, existed before Paul's letter were widely known. This is simply Biblical Truth.

But I am glad God sent Paul, as he is able to explain how and why a man can "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." as he himself lived many years as slave to this very curse.

oikonomia said:
Anyway I praise the Lord that that ISN'T the case with the Bible and especially the New Testament.
Of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God, (Col. 1:25)

Let me read on to see if I get your concept right.

I am glad to hear you're grateful for Paul's letters.
Along with them helping you to understand the Law and the Prophets are you thankful also they help us to understand -
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? I am thankful they are indespensable in comprehending the entire New Testament gospels including
books like Acts, Revelation, and probably ALL the other epistles.

Whew! I'm glad to here that.

This is a little bit hard for me to follow. Maybe I need to re-read your exchanges with someone else.

But you began by saying the Law and the Prophets were the Gospel of Christ. I thought that is what you said above.
Now you say men "only had the Law and Prophets".

Paul said the Oracles of God, what he called "The gospel of Christ" were given to the Jews. But they didn't believe them. Which in my understanding, means they didn't have Faith in God. My understanding comes from scriptures.

Deut. 32: 18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. 19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. 20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Hebrews also speaks to this Truth.

Heb. 4: 2 For unto us was "the gospel" preached, "as well as unto them": but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

I was addressing the posters thread which implies that a man cannot know God or the curse Paul was describing in Romans 7, if they "only had the Law and Prophets". This is not true, according to my understanding of scriptures that I posted.

The point being that Israel was given the Oracles of God, AKA, the Law and Prophets, AKA, "The Gospel of Christ". They had the Gospel, and Caleb believed, Joshua believed, David believed, Zacharias believed, Simeon believed, Anna believed, along with EVERY example of faith given by God to us through the Law and Prophets. But with "many" God was not well pleased. Because they didn't believe.

oikonomia said:
So before the New Testament men had or did not have "the Gospel of Christ" ?

According to Paul and the Hebrews Author, they did. According to the Testimony of Luke, they did. According to "Many" who come in Christ's Name, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, they didn't.

oikonomia said:
I would say that before Christ's incarnation, perfect life, death, resurrection, and becomming "a life giving Spirit" to indwell them
they did not have "the Gospel of Christ" per se.

I know this is an accepted and widely popular religious philosophy of this world, that I too believed for many years, until I started studying the Holy scriptures for myself.

But there can be no doubt that the Wise men, Zacharias and Simeon, were true "Christians" with living faith that was in Christ, even before the Christ was born. And Abraham as well, filled with the Spirit of Christ. The examples are too many to mention.

oikonomia said:
Are we saying the same thing in this? Men didn't have the Gospel of Christ. And then one day men HAD and HAVE now the Gospel of
Christ.

And Christ and His apostles and prophets helped us to be enlightened to the nature of that Gospel of Christ.
It was promised before, surely. And even it is written that the Gospel was announced to Abraham. (Gal. 3:8)

But essensially that Gospel was not here and now it is here, Praise the Lord's mercy and grace.
That's what we believe as Christians. Am I right?

By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit,
(Ephesians 3:4,5)

I believe we should consider what Paul actually says in order to understand him.

Eph. 3: 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the "sons of men", as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

First, to assume there was no sons and daughters of God prior to Paul, is something I'm not going to do, having read the scriptures. And to assume that God didn't reveal Himself to His sons and daughters, is also a bridge to far for me. Did God reveal Himself to the sons of men before "after those days"? I think not, as it is clear to me that God chose Israel to place His Name.

Rom. 9: 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these "are not" the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

No, they are "Children of men".

There is a lot here to come settle before continuing.

I really appreciate the reply and am glad to share the reason for my faith.

Studyman · May 10, 2024

oikonomia said:
That happens with me sometimes. So I did ask.

Well, you know HIM is able to also clarify what he believes.

But it was Jesus Christ, my friend, who told us that the people were slaves to sin.
Paul only repeated with some elaboration what Jesus taught.

My point is that God detailed this "slavery" for His people in Deuteronomy. Curses which overtake men of sin, cursing the fruit of their body, causing their flesh to rule over the man, until he is destroyed. You can read it for yourself in Deut. 28.

oikonomia said:
Jesus -
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples;
And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.

They answered Him, We are Abraham’s seed and have never yet been enslaved to anyone. How is it that You say, You shall become free? Jesus answered them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Everyone who commits sin is a slave of sin.

And the slave does not abide in the house forever; the son does abide forever.
If therefore the Son sets you free, you shall be free indeed. (John 8:31-36)

How is it the Pharisees didn't know they were slaves to sin? How is it the Pharisees didn't know their god was the devil? Because of the "Law of Sin", the curses that come upon a man who lives in sin. "43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Why is this? Did God not place upon them the curse of blindness? The curse of " Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not."

When Paul "delighted in the Law of God after the inward man, but found another law bringing him into captivity to the "doing what he didn't want to do"? Was this before he humbled himself to serve the Law of God in his mind, or after?

Now I have answered your questions. It would really be good if you would answer mine.

oikonomia said:
The gradual and progressive revelation of truth unvieled to man that the sinner is a slave to sin.
Am I right?

Yes, the man who lives in sin, is a slave to sin. The man who serves the Law of God with his mind, is freed from sin. And if this man, as Paul teaches both Jew and Gentile, " who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he is promised eternal life:

oikonomia said:
Jesus coming says in that very chapter that He is the light of the world. (v. 12)
He is the very God, the I AM THAT I AM, become a man to accomplish redemption and come to live within us as eternal life.

The Jews then said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I am. (vs. 57,58)

Yes, His Father sent Him from the very beginning.

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light."

oikonomia said:
Jesus Christ is the very God in a form in which He can come and Himself live within us - mingling us with God and
building God into man.

Yes, the Father of the Lord's Christ, sent Him from heaven, where HE was before. And this same Jesus "of the bible" said;

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory "which I had" with thee before the world was.

Lots of issues to iron out here.

oikonomia · May 10, 2024

Studyman said:
Rom. 1: 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein (within the Gospel of Christ) "is the righteousness of God revealed" from faith (of Noah and Abraham) to faith (of Malichi): as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Hab. 2:4)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed (within the Gospel of Christ) from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness "of men", who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 "Because" that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

I would like for you to consider how the Apostle Paul concludes this book of Romans -

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages

But has now been manifested, and through the prophetic writings, according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known to all the Gentiles for the obedience of faith;

To the only wise God through Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Romans 16:25-27)

"[T]he revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages" means the Gospel of Christ
was kept in silence in previous ages to Christ.

I sounds like you're saying Paul's gospel - the proclamation of Jesus Christ was not kept in silence in the previous ages.

I can believe the entire Hebrew Bible or Old Testament pointed to Christ,
I like it put - The Old Testament was the picture and the New Testament is the caption beneath the picture.

Studyman said:
Paul confirms this truth in 1 Cor. 10:

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

This is like what I wrote about the OT being the picture and the NT being the caption underneath the picture.

Studyman said:
Well certainly, "many" religious sects and businesses would not exist without Paul's letters that we are warned "many" who come in Christ's Name, would twist to pervert God's Truth.

It sounds like you are blaming divisions and sects in the church to the Apostle Paul.
There were sects among God's people before Christ came and His apostles wrote things.

You can't say "We are going to hold Paul responsible for sects among God's people."
Before Paul was even a twinkle in his mother's eye there were twisters and perverters of God's words and sects damaging unity among
God's people. Right?

Studyman said:
Would the Catholic religion, or her protestant daughters even exist without Paul's letters? I doubt it. But God's Chruch, and those whose refuge is the Lord, existed before Paul's letter were widely known. This is simply Biblical Truth.

Maybe we can come back to this. But I certainly do not blame the immaturity of many of divisive brothers on Paul.
I mean that would be like saying Moses is to blame for Judah verses the Northren Kingdom of Israel.

Quite the contrary took place. Divisions set in when the early saints forsook the God ordained ministry of His Apostle Paul.
His call to be perfected into one new man and arrive at the oneness of the faith and the full stature of the Son of God is
the closest thing to the prayer of Jesus in John 17.

The very oneness of the church is the oneness of the Trinity dispensed into man perfecting them into one.

Compare:

Christ's petition - That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me. (John 17:21-23)

Paul's prayer - For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, Of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named,
That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,
That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
May be full of strength to apprehend with all the saints what the breadth and length and height and depth are
And to know the knowledge-surpassing love of Christ, that you may be filled unto all the fullness of God. (Eph. 3:14-19)

Paul's teaching - And He Himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as shepherds and teachers, For the perfecting of the saints unto the work of the ministry, unto the building up of the Body of Christ,
Until we all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ, Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love. (Eph. 4:11-16)

This brother Paul not only absolutely pioneered in the experience of Christ but was faithful to the uttermost to Christ's teaching.

The oneness of the church is the dispensing of the divine Trinity into her to be "perfected" into oneness and grow up into
a full grown man of Christ expressed in His people.

Brother Paul was entirely faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.
He is not alone in the new testament age. He is not alone in the writing of the New Testament.

Studyman said:
But I am glad God sent Paul, as he is able to explain how and why a man can "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." as he himself lived many years as slave to this very curse.

I am thankful also.
I feel sorrow that he told Timothy that co-workers of his and/or believers under his serving turned away from his ministry.

Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
This you know, that all who are in Asia turned away from me, of whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. (2 Tim. 1:14,15)

The church universal has been suffering this turning away from his example and ministry for a long time.
We should not repeat the tragedy of turning away from this rich ministry God ordained for the Apostle Paul.
We should join him and participate with him in this ministry.

For length's sake I continue latter.
Stay in His life and light supplying word.

HIM · May 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
You know those movie montage things that show things that suddenly add up?

Who taught Paul? Besides Gamaliial.

The same who taught since Adam, God

HIM · May 11, 2024

Studyman said:
I don't believe God missed or was ignorant of the "specific" curse and vexation Paul experienced and defined before he served the Law of God with his mind. Yet that is what you are preaching here. I know you consider these Words of God irrelevant, but for others reading along, please consider.

"Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep."

That is subjective. It is best to go by what the word says rather than say, here it implies it spiritually. In this case the context is established in the mentioning of the cattle and sheep offspring. The fruit of our body is our children and that is what we would teach mainly. That is what would be cursed. The context is offspring . The LXX translation says it out right. Below is the ABP which is a translation of it.

It COULD BE what we do in the sense of the work of our hands since it is said in relation to the fruit of the land. I considered that also and would not argue it. And would share it. But in that, it isn't specific. As to say Here is the LAW of the Sin which Paul speaks of. That we can't help ourselves and we do what we wouldn't. And if we do what we wouldn't it is no longer we who do it, but the sin the dwells in us.

Deut 28:18 Accursed are the progeny of your belly, and the produce of your land; the herds of your oxen, and the flocks of your sheep.

Studyman said:
God's Word is not irrelevant Him. You can call them irrelevant, but that doesn't make them so.

You have a bad habit to say things that are not true. That is not from God. I never said that. YOUR INTERPRETATION of scripture and your questions in respect to the topic are irrelevant. That was what was said. You strive for contention and try to inflame ill. Something else which is not from God.

(Had just edited a serious typo. Sorry for any inconvenience)

HIM · May 11, 2024

oikonomia said:
Thanks HIM.

Good morning and You are welcome. Thank you for being Cordial.

oikonomia said:
A few more questions could you bear with about this post?

1.) "Our Spirit" [capital S] you say is replaced by "the Spirit" [again capital S].
Say a little more about the Spirit ( I believe is God ) replaces our "Spirit".

Would this be saying the same thing? "No it is the Spirit that replaces [our Soul] "

If by soul you mean who we are, our life outside of God, yes. For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith OF the Son of God who gave Himself for us. So let’s not say, who is to bring Christ down from above or up from the deep. For the word, Christ is in our hearts and in our mouths that we do the things and speak of Him. That is the Faith in which we are to speak. For We are not, For he that is baptized into Christ has put on Christ. No more Scott nor you. We are all one in Christ, the Temple of the Most high God with His Spirit dwelling in us. A new creature. old things have passed away. ALL is new and of God. Because it was God in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. Therefore Being begotten from the word of truth let's not forget what manner of man we now are in this Law of Liberty the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus that has freed us from the Law of sin and of death. In that we are Ambassadors of and through Christ. And have been given this Ministery of reconciliation to show and thereby share Us in Him He in us that the world might believe.

oikonomia said:
2.) You taught me - " that the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law be fulfilled in us. Who walk after this Spirit and not after the flesh. "

This is another way of Paul telling us? - That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit. (Rom. 8:4 Recovery Version)

Sure.

oikonomia said:
For you these are exactly equivalent?
"the righteousness of the Law, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law"
and
"the righteous requirement of the law".

Thanks.
The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you.

Yes that is what is being stated according to context.
What the Law is, is established in chapter seven. It being the Law of God to which Paul delights in and showed him what sin was and is.

Studyman · May 11, 2024

oikonomia said:
I would like for you to consider how the Apostle Paul concludes this book of Romans -

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages

But has now been manifested, "and through the prophetic writings", according to the command of the eternal God, has been made known "to all the Gentiles" "for the obedience of faith".

To the only wise God through Jesus Christ, to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. (Romans 16:25-27)

"[T]he revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages" means the Gospel of Christ
was kept in silence in previous ages to Christ.

I sound like your're saying Paul's gospel - the proclamation of Jesus Christ was not kept in silence in the previous ages.

I don't believe that Paul contradicts himself, or that Jesus or His Father contradicts themselves. I know the practice of posting one Scriptures for the purpose of making void, or discrediting another Scripture is a popular practice among this world's religious philosophers. And it is done in order to promote a religious philosophy that might not stand if "Every" inspired Word of God were considered. So when I study, I try not to pit one verse against another, but to understand that both verses are true and any perceived contradiction would be because of my ignorance or my lack of understanding, or my preconceived notions taught to me by this world's religions.

In this case, it seems clear that the Prophetic Writings, AKA, "Law and Prophets", has now been manifested and made known, by command of the Eternal God, "To all the Gentiles". Where before this time, as Paul explains in Romans 1 and elsewhere, the revelation of this mystery had only been available to the Jews. Paul confirms this for me in Rom. 3.

Rom. 3: 1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The Spirit of Christ inspired Luke further this truth in his witness of Zacharias, Simeon and Anna, all of whom the Revelation of the Mystery had been shown, just as Paul teaches and I posted in Romans 1. The Hebrews verse I posted for your review, agrees with these Scriptures here. So once again, it's like for me, the Entire Bible flows together like a river of living water. Chopping it up into pieces, separating the pieces from the rest of the Bible, them creating doctrines for them, is spiritual suicide in my view. Nevertheless, this is a most popular tactic among "many" who come in Christ's Name.

oikonomia said:
I can believe the entire Hebrew Bible or Old Testament pointed to Christ,
I like it put - The Old Testament was the picture and the New Testament is the caption beneath the picture.

In actuality, it the exact opposite. The Jesus "of the Bible" is the picture of the perfect man, who walked in the Righteousness of God, and understood the Wrath of God against all unrighteousness of men. The rest of the New Testament is a witness.

But the Righteousness of God and the Wrath of God against all unrighteousness of men was not revealed in the New Testament, rather, they were revealed in the Law and Prophets.

In my understanding, Jesus knew that the mainstream preachers of His Time were eroding and corrupting the Law and Prophets, and HE knew this would continue after HE was gone. He most certainly would have known modern religions attempt to discredit or make void the Law and Prophets, including the warning of men who would "Transform themselves" into Apostles of Christ. So knowing this was coming, knowing "many", who come in His Name, would promote the Philosophy that Jesus came to replace or destroy the Law and Prophets, HE assured me though His Holy Word that this philosophy is not truth.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

The same Heaven, and the Same Earth Jesus walked on is still here. And we all shall appear before the judgment seat of Christ, as those Christians in Matt. 7:22-23 did. And this has yet to be fulfilled, so "ALL" has not yet been fulfilled.

So for Jesus and Paul, everything they taught, and believed, was shown to them in the Law and Prophets.

The New Testament is a perfect witness, a picture of the result of men choosing "Life or death, Blessings or curses" that God places before men.

I'm OK with that.

Grip Docility · May 11, 2024

HIM said:
The same who taught since Adam, God

Find a passage of NT condemnation scripture… and compare it to Matthew 23.

There is a key.

HIM · May 11, 2024

Grip Docility said:
Find a passage of NT condemnation scripture… and compare it to Matthew 23.

There is a key.

I have no idea what you’re asking

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has set us free from the law of sin and death?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

A Tree and Its Fruit​

Friend

Well-Known Member

Friend

Friend

Friend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Friend

Friend

Friend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Friend

Similar threads

A Tree and Its Fruit