The Danger of "Keeping Sabbath."

Mercy Shown

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Christ is in the center of His law. His law leads us to Christ Gal 3:24 Psa 19:7 and Christ leads us to obey His law Mat 14:15-18. God's law is a reflection of character Holy Rom 7:12 righteous Psa 119:172 Perfect Psa 19:7 and everlasting Mat 5:19. Why would someone not want to focus on becoming like Christ or want to do what God wrote in our hearts Heb 8:10 Psa 40:8 through love and faith. We have free will, but it seems like a bad idea. If we don't keep God's commandment- we are told we don't know Him and are a liar. Not my words. 1 John 2:3-4
I suppose there are those who want nothing to do with Christ. Even some religous people. But the bottom line is that we don't become like Christ by focusing on the law, We become like Christ by focusing on Christ.

The law cannot make us Christ like. “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” Romans 8:3

The only way to keep the law is to stop focusing on it and focus on Christ and what He did for us. He will put the law in our hearts and we will actually began keeping His commands for the first time.

Sabatarians tend to think of his commands as the ten commandments but they are far greater in scope than the ten commandments. You continue to not adress whether you keep the law perfectly or not. I assume you do not just like the rest of us. This is an important point for Christians.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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But the bottom line is that we don't become like Christ by focusing on the law, We become like Christ by focusing on Christ.
How does one focus on Christ, but not His teachings?

Do you know what the test is for knowing Christ? It's pretty simple.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Do you what the test is for not knowing Christ?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So how do we become like Christ if He doesn't even know us? Lucifer wanted to be like Christ Isa 14:14 and didn't want to submit to God’s law either 1 John 3:8 seems like the wrong direction on who to follow.

This is how we abide in Him. It means having a right relationship with Him.

1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

So if we are not keeping God's Word which is though His teachings like John 14:15 Exo 20:6 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 John 15:10 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:21-23 we are not abiding in Him

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

So are we too good to obey God's law, that we can be like Christ but unlike Christ we can bypass His law that He asks us to keep through love and faith. John 14:15 Rev 14:12 Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 Was Jesus too good for His own law, or did He also keep John 15:10, including the Sabbath Luke 4:16 as our example to follow. 1 John 2:6. The problem is when we decide what we should keep or not keep instead of living by Christs standards we become like our own god, depend on our righteousness and not Christs Psa 119:172. It's something we are warned about in the last days 2 Timothy 3:5-7

God's law reflects His character, we can't become like Christ by being disobedient to His law. Scripture calls this rebellion which is sin and that separates us from God. Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us, and showed us the WAY by His example 1 John 2:6. Everyone wants the blessings Jesus brings, but are they really willing to be His servant and to submit to His will which we how through our obedience to Him and living by His every Word,
The law cannot make us Christ like.
The law brings us to Christ Gal 3:24 and is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 and Christ brings us to obey the law John 14:15-30
God's law is a transcript of His character. Its impossible to be like Christ and not be in submission to Him or His law. It sounds good in theory, but in reality we make ourselves and enmity against God.
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” Romans 8:3
You need to keep reading and read it in its full context.....the law shows us our sins Rom 3:20, we are weak in the flesh when we follow our fleshy desires instead of walking in His Spirit. Paul shows us the characteristics of those who are walking in the flesh contrasted by those who walk in His Spirit.

Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. see Isa 48:18 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Don't you see when we do not subject ourselves to be servants of God and obey His law we are an enmity against God? So how can we become like Christ if we won't even subject ourselves to His law? It's a really bad spot to be in.. There is another way, but it requires us to yield ourselves to be servants of God, which means believing His teachings and doing them through the power of the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-18

The only way to keep the law is to stop focusing on it and focus on Christ and what He did for us.
Do you have a verse for this? I see no scripture that says to not follow the teachings of Jesus.
He will put the law in our hearts and we will actually began keeping His commands for the first time.
He puts the laws in our hearts so we can stop focusing on it? really? if God didn't want us to focus on it the last place He would place His laws would be in our hearts and minds. I don't think you have really thought this through

This is what His Word where our focus should be, which is perfect for converting the soul and bringing us to Christ. Once in Christ He enables us to obey.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.


1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Sabatarians tend to think of his commands as the ten commandments but they are far greater in scope than the ten commandments. You continue to not adress whether you keep the law perfectly or not. I assume you do not just like the rest of us. This is an important point for Christians.
The Ten Commandments are far greater than what is stated, that is for sure and Jesus gave examples of this from the Ten Commanemtns reminding us not to break or teach others to break the least of these Mat 5:19-30, but do we believe Him? How does one express faith in Him but not faith in His teachings and to do them. I already addressed your other point previously, what I do has no bearing on your salvation. It’s not like I will be judged on a different standard. what we teach matters Mat 5:19-30 just like being a doer to His Word matters James 1:22 Rev 22:14 I would be more concerned about myself and how we can be better servants for Christ than worry about what other people that we don't even know are doing or not doing. Best to place our focus on ourselves to be the best we can be to serve Christ. He gave us everything and asks for so little.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. All will get sorted out soon enough, but I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word.
 
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Gary K

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I suppose there are those who want nothing to do with Christ. Even some religous people. But the bottom line is that we don't become like Christ by focusing on the law, We become like Christ by focusing on Christ.

The law cannot make us Christ like. “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh” Romans 8:3

The only way to keep the law is to stop focusing on it and focus on Christ and what He did for us. He will put the law in our hearts and we will actually began keeping His commands for the first time.

Sabatarians tend to think of his commands as the ten commandments but they are far greater in scope than the ten commandments. You continue to not adress whether you keep the law perfectly or not. I assume you do not just like the rest of us. This is an important point for Christians.
You do not address being born again.

John 3: 1 THERE was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

The new birth is the miraculous transformation of the carnal man to a man with spiritual perception and love for God in his heart. You speak as someone who entirely discounts the new birth experience. That is a fatal spiritual mistake.

What is the fruit of the Spirit in the life?

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

As the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law that includes God's law, the 10 commandments which means we can keep the Sabbath through the power of God. His power places us at with peace with Him and a heart full of love for Him.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Do you know what the test is for knowing Christ? It's pretty simple.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
Do you know how to know him? It is not by keeping His commands. We keep his commands because we know him.

Trying to know Him by keeping his commands results in neither.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Do you what the test is for not knowing Christ?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


Not knowing him is the reason many claim to keep his commands and yet they don’t. Unless you never fail in keeping them that includes you along with everyone else.
 
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Mercy Shown

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How does one focus on Christ, but not His teachings?

Do you know what the test is for knowing Christ? It's pretty simple.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

Do you what the test is for not knowing Christ?

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So how do we become like Christ if He doesn't even know us? Lucifer wanted to be like Christ Isa 14:14 and didn't want to submit to God’s law either 1 John 3:8 seems like the wrong direction on who to follow.

This is how we abide in Him. It means having a right relationship with Him.

1 John 2:5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

So if we are not keeping God's Word which is though His teachings like John 14:15 Exo 20:6 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 5:19-30 John 15:10 Mat 19:17-19 Mat 7:21-23 we are not abiding in Him

1 John 2:6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

So are we too good to obey God's law, that we can be like Christ but unlike Christ we can bypass His law that He asks us to keep through love and faith. John 14:15 Rev 14:12 Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 Was Jesus too good for His own law, or did He also keep John 15:10, including the Sabbath Luke 4:16 as our example to follow. 1 John 2:6. The problem is when we decide what we should keep or not keep instead of living by Christs standards we become like our own god, depend on our righteousness and not Christs Psa 119:172. It's something we are warned about in the last days 2 Timothy 3:5-7

God's law reflects His character, we can't become like Christ by being disobedient to His law. Scripture calls this rebellion which is sin and that separates us from God. Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us, and showed us the WAY by His example 1 John 2:6. Everyone wants the blessings Jesus brings, but are they really willing to be His servant and to submit to His will which we how through our obedience to Him and living by His every Word,

The law brings us to Christ Gal 3:24 and is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7 and Christ brings us to obey the law John 14:15-30
God's law is a transcript of His character. Its impossible to be like Christ and not be in submission to Him or His law. It sounds good in therory, but in reality we make ourselves and en against God.

You need to keep reading and read it in its full context.....the law shows us our sins Rom 3:20, we are weak in the flesh when we follow our fleshy desires instead of walking in His Spirit. Paul shows us the characteristics of those who are walking in the flesh contrasted by those who walk in His Spirit.

Rom 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be [b]carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. see Isa 48:18 7 Because the [c]carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


Don't you see when we do not subject ourselves to be servants of God and obey His law we are an enmity against God? So how can we become like Christ if we won't even subject ourselves to His law? It's a really bad spot to be in.. There is another way, but it requires us to yield ourselves to be servants of God, which means believing His teachings and doing them through the power of the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-18


Do you have a verse for this? I see no scripture that says to not follow the teachings of Jesus.

He puts the laws in our hearts so we can stop focusing on it? really? if God didn't want us to focus on it the last place He would place His laws would be in our hearts and minds. I don't think you have really througt this through

This is His Word teaches us

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.


1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.


The Ten Commandments are far greater than what is stated, that is for sure and Jesus gave examples of this from the Ten Commanemtns reminding us not to break or teach others to break the least of these Mat 5:19-30, but do we believe Him? How does one express faith in Him but not faith in His teachings and to do them. I already addressed your other point previously, what I do has no bearing on your salvation, I would be more concerned about myself and how we can be better servants for Christ than worry about what other people that we don't even know are doing or not doing. Best to place our focus on ourselves to be the best we can be to serve Christ. He gave us everything and asks for so little.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. All will get sorted out soon enough, but I wish you well in seeking Truth to God's Word.
You spend a lot of time creating a straw man to knock down instead of hearing what I am saying.

The danger of Sabbath Keeping isn’t Sabbath Keeping. It is when we focus on it instead of Christ. When we do that we become proof-texting Christian’s. It is actually the dangers of becoming a legalist. There is only one way to be a law keeper and it is not focusing on the law. It is found in Christ.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You spend a lot of time creating a straw man to knock down instead of hearing what I am saying.

The danger of Sabbath Keeping isn’t Sabbath Keeping. It is when we focus on it instead of Christ. When we do that we become proof-texting Christian’s. It is actually the dangers of becoming a legalist. There is only one way to be a law keeper and it is not focusing on the law. It is found in Christ.
Explain to me how we focus on Christ but we shouldn't focus on His teaching or what He asks and the example He left for us. Wouldn’t that make us god, if we can just bypass all His teachings and His example and just be like Him?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Not knowing him is the reason many claim to keep his commands and yet they don’t. Unless you never fail in keeping them that includes you along with everyone else.

God knows who knows Him, but it’s not through lawlessness and disobedience Mat 7:23 1 John 2:4 . You seem really concerned about the reasons why one would obey God’s commandments as if God can’t read our every thought like we can pull a fast one over Him. We can’t Ecc 12:13-14 and if everyone in the world was obeying Him for all the wrong reason, not through great love and dedication, it still would not negate our moral responsibility to obey God and His commandments. :heartpulse:
 
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Mercy Shown

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You do not address being born again.

John 3: 1 THERE was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

The new birth is the miraculous transformation of the carnal man to a man with spiritual perception and love for God in his heart. You speak as someone who entirely discounts the new birth experience. That is a fatal spiritual mistake.

What is the fruit of the Spirit in the life?

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

As the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law that includes God's law, the 10 commandments which means we can keep the Sabbath through the power of God. His power places us at with peace with Him and a heart full of love for Him.
Excellent! Exactly what I’ve been trying to get out only you did it much better than I could. Very excellent post.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Explain to me how we focus on Christ but we shouldn't focus on His teaching or what He asks and the example He left for us. Wouldn’t that make us god, if we can just bypass all His teachings and His example and just be like Him?
Do as Paul did and vow to preach nothing but Christ in him crucified. When we concentrate on how hopeless and helpless we are to meet any standard of salvation and then realize that Jesus Christ took our place and took all of our sins upon himself and gave to us his righteousness that we might freely enter heaven. And he did this because he loved us not because of anything we did or could do. That’s when our motivation for obeying the law changes radically and even though in our own power we cannot keep it we are still covered by the grace of Jesus Christ as Hebrews 10:14 says by the one sacrifice has perfected us forever while we are still being made holy
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Do as Paul did and vow to preach nothing but Christ in him crucified. When we concentrate on how hopeless and helpless we are to meet any standard of salvation and then realize that Jesus Christ took our place and took all of our sins upon himself and gave to us his righteousness that we might freely enter heaven.
Who said we were helpless and hopeless. Certainly not me……far from it. :)
Our salvation is from sin. Mat 1:21 if it wasn't possible to overcome, He would not ask. Through Him all things are possible Phil 4:13and we must confess and forsake our sins to receive His mercy grace and sanctification 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13
I believe God has more power to keep us from sin, than the devil does to keep us in sin. It's a matter of who we yield ourselves to obey Rom 6:16
Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 we need a conversion in Christ, its the only way anyone will be saved. That conversion- which gives us love, faith and obedience to Him is what will reconcile us Rev 22:14
There is another way, but it requires us to yield ourselves to be servants of God, which means believing His teachings and doing them through the power of the Holy Spirit. John 14:15-18
And he did this because he loved us not because of anything we did or could do. That’s when our motivation for obeying the law changes radically and even though in our own power we cannot keep it we are still covered by the grace of Jesus Christ as Hebrews 10:14 says by the one sacrifice has perfected us forever while we are still being made holy
We are saved by grace though faith Eph 2:8. God came to save everyone, but not everyone accepts His free gift. I believe when we meet Christ He has the power to change us from the inside out, we need to bury our old life of sin and walk in newness in Him. Rom 6 If we have a right relationship with Him He impute His righteousness- how did He walk- did He not walk in righteousness? Was He not tempted just as we are but overcame Heb 4:15 1 Peter 2:21-22 as our example to follow 1 John 2:6. Jesus never asks for something that He did not overcame Himself nor what He gives us the power to accomplish , but if we are arguing about obeying His law, its not something coming from Christ John 14:15 Mat 5:19 Abiding in Him we are in harmony with His teachings, His commandments and His example, we can’t do it on our own but in Christ we can do anything, including overcome and standing in His Glory when He returns, which I believe is soon. Like I said I really do wish you well, did not mean to offend, it was never my intent.
 
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Gary K

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Excellent! Exactly what I’ve been trying to get out only you did it much better than I could. Very excellent post.
You have not been saying the same thing I did. You have been focusing on it being impossible to obey God. That just isn't true.
 
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guevaraj

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The bible tells us the the Holy spirit communicates with us. such praise to God for sending Him to us. John 16:12-15 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Brother, the Holy Spirit speaks through the prophets and has nothing to say himself to us directly. This silence of the Holy Spirit for us individually is what is used as an excuse to disobey the Sabbath message by the Holy Spirit in the book of Hebrews.

For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.” We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:16-21)​

This is what we asked of God so that we would not die, the Holy Spirit speaks to us through prophets like Moses and the Holy Spirit does not speak to us directly as God did at Sanai.

For this is what you yourselves requested of the LORD your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai. You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’ “Then the LORD said to me, ‘What they have said is right. I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him. I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf. But any prophet who falsely claims to speak in my name or who speaks in the name of another god must die.’ “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the LORD?’ If the prophet speaks in the LORD’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the LORD did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:16-22 NLT)​
There is no passage in Hebrews that mentions "obeying the sabbath.
Paul in Hebrews chapter 4 below tells us what he means by his use of the word "rest". "Rest" in this passage does not mean anything other than what Paul tells us he means in the following passage.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” (Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT)​
When did God take such an oath and for what specific reason. It was not the weekly sabbath that was the rest they refused to enter. This passage is likening the promised land of Canaan to our rest in Christ's grace. It also is includes the Sabbath in that metaphore.
Not allowing them to enter God's Sabbath "ready since he made the world" was a punishment during those 40 years for their disobedience. It means they did not enter the Sabbath during those 40 years with Manna. They kept the wrong Sabbath being the seventh day of the week, when the seventh day of the week is too late to enter the Sabbath by half a day near Jerusalem. When the Sabbath in Jerusalem is entered half a day earlier then the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem.
Just as God rested from His works we are to rest in Christ's grace from our works. The Sabbath is a symbol of the perfect rest in Christ.
But the bible tels us that we are not and cannot be saved by keeping the law. In fact, it says we have a righteousness apart from the law in Christ.
You have a misunderstanding of the free of work righteousness obtained when you first believe, exemplified in David's sin with Bathsheba. David did not do any work at the temple to obtain forgiveness because he believed God's message through the prophet Nathan that he was worthy of death for his sin with Bathsheba. Subsequent forgiveness for additional sins by David would have to be gained by doing the works of the temple for the forgiveness of sins. It means David was lost to sin because he did not do the works of the temple for the forgiveness of his sin of taking another man's wife. God through Nathan told David he would die for that sin and David believed God and that belief was counted as work that completed his new faith granting him forgiveness without the need to do the works of the temple. It is a special case of forgiveness for past sins where your having believed is counted as work to gain forgiveness only at the beginning of your faith.
If God were to come back today, do you know that you would be saved? What is your testimony on this?
Yes! God knows I obey Him like Abraham! How do I obey Him differently from David? Unlike David, I turn to the temple for forgiveness. Jesus has taught me how to get up again and again quickly when I fall until I no longer fall. It is not that I can never fall, but that I know what God expects from me when I fall, which David failed to do by not going to the temple. God expects me to ask for forgiveness in prayer to get up again and again until I no longer fall. If David had gone to the temple, he would have been saved from his sin, but because he did not go to the temple, David was lost to sin, until he gained a new faith through the prophet Nathan. David got forgiveness free of the works of the temple when he was forgiven for his new belief of being worthy of death for committing adultery with Bathsheba without having done the regular work at the temple for his forgiveness. What many think can only happen after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! I say again, what has been assumed as unique to the new covenant David experienced before the new covenant! Way before Jesus' death on the cross, David received "righteousness" for having believed, free of the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery! Something everyone thinks only happens after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! David's free "righteousness" experience of getting "righteousness" free of the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of the past sin of adultery took place before Jesus.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

David gained initial forgiveness for his free of regular work "righteousness", having done no regular work at the temple when God counted his having "believed" he was worthy of death for adultery as equivalent to an act of "work" to complete his new faith of being worthy of death for breaking the Seventh Commandment of committing adultery with another man's wife. David gained forgiveness for his past sin of adultery without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple! What many think happens after Jesus, gaining free work credit of an act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple, happened to David before Jesus. David's experience of gaining an initial act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery was before Jesus!

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are credited righteousness (work), not because of their work, but because of their faith/belief (pistis) in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are credited righteousness (work) without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was credited righteousness (work) by God because of his faith/belief (pistis). But how did this happen? Was he credited righteousness (work) only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! (Romans 4:4-10 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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Mercy Shown

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Who said we were helpless and hopeless. Certainly not me……far from it. :)





We are saved by grace though faith Eph 2:8. God came to save everyone, but not everyone accepts His free gift. I believe when we meet Christ He has the power to change us from the inside out, we need to bury our old life of sin and walk in newness in Him. Rom 6 If we have a right relationship with Him He impute His righteousness- how did He walk- did He not walk in righteousness? Was He not tempted just as we are but overcame Heb 4:15 1 Peter 2:21-22 as our example to follow 1 John 2:6. Jesus never asks for something that He did not overcame Himself nor what He gives us the power to accomplish , but if we are arguing about obeying His law, its not something coming from Christ John 14:15 Mat 5:19 Abiding in Him we are in harmony with His teachings, His commandments and His example, we can’t do it on our own but in Christ we can do anything, including overcome and standing in His Glory when He returns, which I believe is soon. Like I said I really do wish you well, did not mean to offend, it was never my intent.
You are still fighting your own strawman. We were all helpless and hopeless and until we understand that we will not submit to the full power of God for help and hope. We will look to the hills instead.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are still fighting your own strawman. We were all helpless and hopeless and until we understand that we will not submit to the full power of God for help and hope. We will look to the hills instead.
Of course we need the power of Jesus, but you seems to indicate we can be saved in our sins, instead of receiving the power of Christ to be saved from sin Mat 1:21 and obedience to God’s law is a reflection of a changed heart.
 
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Mercy Shown

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Brother, the Holy Spirit speaks through the prophets and has nothing to say himself to us directly. This silence of the Holy Spirit for us individually is what is used as an excuse to disobey the Sabbath message by the Holy Spirit in the book of Hebrews.

For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.” We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:16-21)​

This is what we asked of God so that we would not die, the Holy Spirit speaks to us through prophets like Moses and the Holy Spirit does not speak to us directly as God did at Sanai.

For this is what you yourselves requested of the LORD your God when you were assembled at Mount Sinai. You said, ‘Don’t let us hear the voice of the LORD our God anymore or see this blazing fire, for we will die.’ “Then the LORD said to me, ‘What they have said is right. I will raise up a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites. I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell the people everything I command him. I will personally deal with anyone who will not listen to the messages the prophet proclaims on my behalf. But any prophet who falsely claims to speak in my name or who speaks in the name of another god must die.’ “But you may wonder, ‘How will we know whether or not a prophecy is from the LORD?’ If the prophet speaks in the LORD’s name but his prediction does not happen or come true, you will know that the LORD did not give that message. That prophet has spoken without my authority and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:16-22 NLT)​

Paul in Hebrews chapter 4 below tells us what he means by his use of the word "rest". "Rest" in this passage does not mean anything other than what Paul tells us he means in the following passage.

For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” (Hebrews 4:3-4 NLT)​

Not allowing them to enter God's Sabbath "ready since he made the world" was a punishment during those 40 years for their disobedience. It means they did not enter the Sabbath during those 40 years with Manna. They kept the wrong Sabbath being the seventh day of the week, when the seventh day of the week is too late to enter the Sabbath by half a day near Jerusalem. When the Sabbath in Jerusalem is entered half a day earlier then the seventh day of the week in Jerusalem.

You have a misunderstanding of the free of work righteousness obtained when you first believe, exemplified in David's sin with Bathsheba. David did not do any work at the temple to obtain forgiveness because he believed God's message through the prophet Nathan that he was worthy of death for his sin with Bathsheba. Subsequent forgiveness for additional sins by David would have to be gained by doing the works of the temple for the forgiveness of sins. It means David was lost to sin because he did not do the works of the temple for the forgiveness of his sin of taking another man's wife. God through Nathan told David he would die for that sin and David believed God and that belief was counted as work that completed his new faith granting him forgiveness without the need to do the works of the temple. It is a special case of forgiveness for past sins where your having believed is counted as work to gain forgiveness only at the beginning of your faith.

Yes! God knows I obey Him like Abraham! How do I obey Him differently from David? Unlike David, I turn to the temple for forgiveness. Jesus has taught me how to get up again and again quickly when I fall until I no longer fall. It is not that I can never fall, but that I know what God expects from me when I fall, which David failed to do by not going to the temple. God expects me to ask for forgiveness in prayer to get up again and again until I no longer fall. If David had gone to the temple, he would have been saved from his sin, but because he did not go to the temple, David was lost to sin, until he gained a new faith through the prophet Nathan. David got forgiveness free of the works of the temple when he was forgiven for his new belief of being worthy of death for committing adultery with Bathsheba without having done the regular work at the temple for his forgiveness. What many think can only happen after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! I say again, what has been assumed as unique to the new covenant David experienced before the new covenant! Way before Jesus' death on the cross, David received "righteousness" for having believed, free of the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery! Something everyone thinks only happens after Jesus happened to David before Jesus! David's free "righteousness" experience of getting "righteousness" free of the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of the past sin of adultery took place before Jesus.

David was furious. “As surely as the LORD lives,” he vowed, “any man who would do such a thing deserves to die! He must repay four lambs to the poor man for the one he stole and for having no pity.” Then Nathan said to David, “You are that man! . . . Then David confessed to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan replied, “Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won’t die for this sin. Nevertheless, because you have shown utter contempt for the word of the LORD by doing this, your child will die.” (2 Samuel 12:5-7a, 13-14 NLT)​

David gained initial forgiveness for his free of regular work "righteousness", having done no regular work at the temple when God counted his having "believed" he was worthy of death for adultery as equivalent to an act of "work" to complete his new faith of being worthy of death for breaking the Seventh Commandment of committing adultery with another man's wife. David gained forgiveness for his past sin of adultery without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple! What many think happens after Jesus, gaining free work credit of an act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices at the temple, happened to David before Jesus. David's experience of gaining an initial act of "righteousness" without having done the regular work of animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of his past sin of adultery was before Jesus!

When people work, their wages are not a gift, but something they have earned. But people are credited righteousness (work), not because of their work, but because of their faith/belief (pistis) in God who forgives sinners. David also spoke of this when he described the happiness of those who are credited righteousness (work) without working for it: “Oh, what joy for those whose disobedience is forgiven, whose sins are put out of sight. Yes, what joy for those whose record the LORD has cleared of sin.” Now, is this blessing only for the Jews, or is it also for uncircumcised Gentiles? Well, we have been saying that Abraham was credited righteousness (work) by God because of his faith/belief (pistis). But how did this happen? Was he credited righteousness (work) only after he was circumcised, or was it before he was circumcised? Clearly, God accepted Abraham before he was circumcised! (Romans 4:4-10 NLT fixed)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
My testimony is that the Holy Spirit communicates with me. Giving me the understanding of God’s word and I know I have salvation because Christ became sin for me that I might be the righteousness of God in Him. It is not because of any works I have done, but because of the work he did.

He has imputed His righteousness on me and reconciled me to Himself. God is my abba and tge Holy Spirit dwells with me, encouraging me, teaching me, and rebuking me. Praise God from whom all blessings flow.

I can give up my salvation because God does not chain e to His side but why would I?
 
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Mercy Shown

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Of course we need the power of Jesus, but you seems to indicate we can be saved in our sins, instead of receiving the power of Christ to be saved from sin Mat 1:21 and obedience to God’s law is a reflection of a changed heart.
The minute we accept Christ as our savior and rely on, trust in and adhere to Jesus Christ, we are saved from all of our sins (past, present and future) and we stand before God as if we had never sinned. God has been waiting for us to come home and even as we approach He is up off His throne running to meet us. He throws His arms around our necks and kisses us. Even as we try to give our repentance speech, He is placing His robe over us, putting His ring, that signifies that we are His child, on our finger and shodding our feet with His Sandals.

We now deserve everything He gives us because we have been given Christs perfection. There is nothing we can do to add to that. Are we going to cast off His robe so we can work on our old garments and rags. No! Never! New wine cannot be kept in old wine skins.

One might ask, are you saying we can do anything we like now?

Well, what is it you want to do? For me it is clear, copy my Abba, just like I copied the human Father He gave me. So for me, that’s a yes and if you really would rather sin, have you actually experienced rebirth?
 
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Mercy Shown

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You have not been saying the same thing I did. You have been focusing on it being impossible to obey God. That just isn't true.
If one does not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear they can never understand. You are only hearing what you imagined.

Now if you are saying that you are without sin, the Bible has something to say to you on that.
 
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guevaraj

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My testimony is that the Holy Spirit communicates with me. Giving me the understanding of God’s word and I know I have salvation because Christ became sin for me that I might be the righteousness of God in Him. It is not because of any works I have done, but because of the work he did. He has imputed His righteousness on me and reconciled me to Himself. God is my abba and tge Holy Spirit dwells with me, encouraging me, teaching me, and rebuking me. Praise God from whom all blessings flow. I can give up my salvation because God does not chain e to His side but why would I?
Brother, what you speak of is only the beginning of our faith and not how we grow in obedience to God. Forgiveness is not a substitute for obedience to the Fourth Commandment. When you forgive, you give others another chance, and you don't expect others to continue disobeying, because they trust that your forgiveness gives them license to continue disobeying. Your forgiveness is supposed to give them the opportunity to overcome disobedience and not need more forgiveness than is necessary to grow in obedience to the Fourth Commandment.

Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ (Matthew 7:21-23 NLT)​

Jesus gives us as much daily forgiveness as we need to grow in obedience. We come out of sin through Jesus' daily forgiveness, like a child who learns to walk by getting up again and again until he no longer falls.

Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. (Hebrews 7:23-26 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
 
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If one does not have the eyes to see or the ears to hear they can never understand. You are only hearing what you imagined.

Now if you are saying that you are without sin, the Bible has something to say to you on that.
What?
 
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