Prominent Catholics urge bishops, cardinals to declare Francis has ‘lost the papal office’ if he refuses to resign

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,585
9,075
Florida
✟329,227.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
4,138
2,520
24
WI
✟138,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But whatever happens in time to come, he will know that some - many - people know the truth about him.
While no person is infallible, I would like to know what the truth is about the Pope, ideally from a centrist news source if possible, and independently reviewed.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,592
16,379
Flyoverland
✟1,256,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
While no person is infallible
Well, the pope is said to have a limited infallibility.
I would like to know what the truth is about the Pope, ideally from a centrist news source if possible, and independently reviewed.
Look at what someone like George Weigel has to say. Or look for what The Pillar has to say.

Actually it is tough to find a centrist position because pope Francis is such a polarizing figure. Some really do love him to pieces. And yet a wide array of people who are not in lockstep with each other have negative opinions of him.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SashaMaria
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
4,138
2,520
24
WI
✟138,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Well, the pope is said to have a limited infallibility.

Look at what someone like George Weigel has to say. Or look for what The Pillar has to say.

Actually it is tough to find a centrist position because pope Francis is such a polarizing figure. Some really do love him to pieces. And yet a wide array of people who are not in lockstep with each other have negative opinions of him.
Does the Bible talk about limited infallibility for Popes (I am a Catholic, but am currently playing a Protestant's advocate here for this question)? I might check those two news sources out.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,592
16,379
Flyoverland
✟1,256,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
  • Agree
Reactions: Michie
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,592
16,379
Flyoverland
✟1,256,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Does the Bible talk about limited infallibility for Popes (I am a Catholic, but am currently playing a Protestant's advocate here for this question)?
Not directly. But then we aren’t Sola Scriptura advocates. You can make a good case for the need for infallibility to keep the gates of hell from destroying the Church.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
4,138
2,520
24
WI
✟138,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not directly. But then we aren’t Sola Scriptura advocates. You can make a good case for the need for infallibility to keep the gates of hell from destroying the Church.
That is true, Catholics are not Sola Scriptura advocates, and I see the point of infallibility to prevent the devil from destroying the Church, but it is starting to, with all this trans stuff. I am not an End Times nut, but maybe we might be nearing the end, or Revelation already happened when Nero was in power in ~60 AD.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,592
16,379
Flyoverland
✟1,256,611.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
That is true, Catholics are not Sola Scriptura advocates, and I see the point of infallibility to prevent the devil from destroying the Church, but it is starting to, with all this trans stuff. I am not an End Times nut, but maybe we might be nearing the end, or Revelation already happened when Nero was in power in ~60 AD.
It feels like things cannot go on too much further, doesn’t it? But then lots of people over a long history have gotten all apocalyptic and nothing happened. Yet.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
4,138
2,520
24
WI
✟138,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It feels like things cannot go on too much further, doesn’t it? But then lots of people over a long history have gotten all apocalyptic and nothing happened. Yet.
Yeah, we must be careful with eschatology. Who knows what God has in store, except we do know this: Jesus died for our sins.
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,907
3,431
✟247,785.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Francis stubbornly will not resign. And the more faithful bishops and cardinals are waiting for him to die rather than push this. So I’m sorry but I don’t see this sprouting any wings.
This all seems counterproductive to me. Papal resignation is already a strongly controverted topic, especially among conservatives. Making threats to force a Pope to resign is pretty crazy, and has more to do with corporate culture than Catholic culture. Finally, if Pope Francis resigned under such pressure it would literally invalidate his resignation, in precisely the same way that the Benevecantists claim that Benedict's resignation was not "freely made." I never really expected Francis to resign, and I think this sort of pressure makes it even more unlikely. ...Not to say it counts as a great deal of pressure. I have only heard of one or two names on this small list.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fide

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2012
1,219
591
✟131,120.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
What truth? Care to elaborate?
The written indictment that is reported on in the link given is long, wide and deep. The actual indictment is reprinted toward the end of the Lifesite article which is linked to in the the OP of this thread. Scan down from the begining of the Lifesite article, and you can find it. You can download the actual document, to be read or printed: a downloadable PDF is here.

The charges against him are so troubling to me, personally, so spiritually and intrinsically dirty, that reading it (to cite a common proverb) makes me "need to take a shower." But I suggest you try to read it for yourself.
 
Upvote 0

fide

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2012
1,219
591
✟131,120.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
While no person is infallible, I would like to know what the truth is about the Pope, ideally from a centrist news source if possible, and independently reviewed.
To set aside for a moment the human person, the man Bergoglio who in fact was elected to the papacy, to understand generally how a wolf in sheep's clothing could work his way into the papacy of Christ's Holy Church, I suggest listening to Fr. Charles Murr interviewed by Dr. Robert Moynihan (of Inside the Vatican) - HERE maybe a place to start. Murr's book Murder in the 33rd Degree is very helpful also. Fr. Murr was a friend of Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, who was appointed by Pope Paul VI to do a thorough study of the Vatican curia, from top to bottom, and report on the charge that Freemasonry had actually infiltrated the Vatican, the College of Cardinals and the pope's curia.

Fr. Murr and Dr. Moynihan have had several conversations on the Freemasons, their power in Europe and - very hard to hear, but - in the curia of the Vatican and the election of popes. We in the US are too quick to discount "conspiracies" as we also are to believe there could be demonic workings within the Church for her destruction. The fact that Judas was an apostle, one of the 12, ought to have been taken as a warning more seriously.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

RileyG

Veteran
Angels Team
Feb 10, 2013
15,523
9,056
28
Nebraska
✟255,833.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-Republican
The written indictment that is reported on in the link given is long, wide and deep. The actual indictment is reprinted toward the end of the Lifesite article which is linked to in the the OP of this thread. Scan down from the begining of the Lifesite article, and you can find it. You can download the actual document, to be read or printed: a downloadable PDF is here.

The charges against him are so troubling to me, personally, so spiritually and intrinsically dirty, that reading it (to cite a common proverb) makes me "need to take a shower." But I suggest you try to read it for yourself.
Thanks for the link. I did skim the article.
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
4,138
2,520
24
WI
✟138,118.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
To set aside for a moment the human person, the man Bergoglio who in fact was elected to the papacy, to understand generally how a wolf in sheep's clothing could work his way into the papacy of Christ's Holy Church, I suggest listening to Fr. Charles Murr interviewed by Dr. Robert Moynihan (of Inside the Vatican) - HERE maybe a place to start. Murr's book Murder in the 33rd Degree is very helpful also. Fr. Murr was a friend of Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, who was appointed by Pope Paul VI to do a through study of the Vatican curia, from top to bottom, and report on the charge that Freemasonry had actually infiltrated the Vatican, the College of Cardinals and the pope's curia.

Fr. Murr and Dr. Moynihan have had several conversations on the Freemasons, their power in Europe and - very hard to hear, but - in the curia of the Vatican and the election of popes. We in the US are too quick to discount "conspiracies" as we also are to believe there could be demonic workings within the Church for her destruction. The fact that Judas was an apostle, one of the 12, ought to have been taken as a warning more seriously.
Hey, you just mentioned the word conspiracy. Got a study for that right below. :)

DateMay 5, 2024
VerseEphesians 4:25 (ESV): "Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another."

Isaiah 8:11-15 (ESV): "For the Lord spoke thus to me with his strong hand upon me, and warned me not to walk in the way of this people, saying: ‘Do not call conspiracy all that this people calls conspiracy, and do not fear what they fear, nor be in dread. But the Lord of hosts, him you shall honor as holy. Let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he will become a sanctuary and a stone of offense and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many shall stumble on it. They shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken.’"
ExplanationThe passage from Ephesians 4:25 is encouraging Christians to speak the truth with one another. The context of this verse is a larger section of the letter to the Ephesians that emphasizes unity and love among believers. The verse specifically calls for putting away falsehood and speaking truthfully with neighbors, as members of one another in the body of Christ. This passage is directly related to people telling lies or spreading conspiracy theories because falsehood and conspiracy theories are contrary to truth.

The passage from Isaiah 8:11-15 does warn against fearing what the people are frightened by and being in constant fear. Instead, it encourages trust in the Lord and honoring Him as holy. The passage speaks of the Lord becoming a "stone of offense and a rock of stumbling" to the people of Israel, which could be interpreted as a warning against being led astray by false beliefs or conspiracy theories.
Societal RelevanceIn the digital age, it is essential for Christians to be discerning and truthful in their use of social media and other forms of communication. Spreading lies or conspiracy theories such as saying that the January 6 attack was peaceful can harm individuals and the body of Christ as a whole. To avoid spreading lies or conspiracy theories, Christians should fact-check information before sharing it, consult reliable sources, and be open to correction when they are wrong.

For instance, the Apollo 11 moon landing has been verified with satellites orbiting the moon, such as the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter launched in 2009, showing the items left on the moon back forty years earlier back in July 1969. They should also be cautious about sources that consistently spread false information (extremist news sites from the far fringes of the political spectrum) and seek to discern the motives behind such information. COVID-19 has been proven by multiple countries and independent agencies to be real, masks slow down the spread between individuals, and vaccines reduce the probability of severe illness by ~60-80%. January 6, 2021 has been well documented with thousands of hours of video footage, unedited speech made earlier that day. A Washington DC officer named Jeffrey L. Smith shot himself nine days later due to PTSD from defending the Capitol.

Ultimately, Christians are called to be truthful, loving, and unified in their speech and actions, both online and offline.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fide

Well-Known Member
Dec 9, 2012
1,219
591
✟131,120.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Francis stubbornly will not resign. And the more faithful bishops and cardinals are waiting for him to die rather than push this. So I’m sorry but I don’t see this sprouting any wings.
God's ways are not man's ways. He does not need the largest army, nor a majority vote to bring about His will. He does use faithful men, even if few, and often their sufferings even to martyrdom, to break the hearts of the complacent and ignite -or reignite - His flame of love in His Holy Bride.
Hey, you just mentioned the word conspiracy. Got a study for that right below. :)
Are you trying to say that conspiracies among men seeking to do evil do not exist? Or that the word "conspiracy" is itself a fictional idea? Did the authorities of Jerusalem not conspire to put Jesus to death, and later, to silence the trouble-making followers of Jesus?
Not every commentary on Scripture is reliable.
 
Upvote 0