The Moral Law

Jonaitis

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Do you consider engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious practices on Saturdays only to be part and parcel to the Moral Law?
Sure, if that's your interpretation of the Fourth Commandment. The moral equity of the commandment leaves room for one's personal structure to rest and worship one day out of seven.
 
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Studyman

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I think we have really beat this poor horse to death. I thank you for completely establishing my point, which is that there never has been, nor now is, anything that can be defined as "The Moral Law". Throughout Christian history morality and ethics have developed and changed and were and are simultaneously at variance within various Christian communities.

In man's many religions, this is true. "Christianity" today, Like the Jews religion of Christ's Time, is a progressive religion which morphs and changes over time to the whims and the imagination of men "Who Transform themselves into Apostles of Christ". It was the same in the Law and Prophets, with Priests who ordained themselves as Priests of God. And the Same Christ, before becoming a man, warned us about them.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

Jer. 29: 8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Let not your prophets and your diviners, that be in the midst of you, deceive you, neither hearken to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. 9 For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith the LORD.

After becoming a man in the person of Jesus, this Same Christ gave us the same warnings in our future regarding men who "Profess to know God", but God didn't send.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, (This would be after his Return, Yes?) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They taught in Christ's Name, but HE didn't send them.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive "many".

Those faithful like Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the wise Men, "Took Heed" of the Rock of Israel's warnings in Jeremaih and many other places, and were not deceived by the "Jews Religion", that is, the religion of Christ's Time that the Jesus "of the Bible" said: "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

So you are right in showing the Truth about "Many" who come in Christ's Name, and how they have rejected God's Judgments and Laws, and have created their own over time, just as the Jews before them.

Paul said I am supposed to understand that God had these things written in the Law and Prophets, so that I "DIDN"T" follow their progressive religious ways. Not so that I would partake in the furthering them.


You have stated very forthrightly that the position I presented regarding Onesimus is one which is not unique to myself, but developed and propounded by many others.

The Talmud was also developed and propounded by many others over time, and the Gospel Gamaliel promoted, was not the same Gospel of Christ Israel rejected, but Zacharias didn't. And yet the only God of Abraham preaching people on the planet in Jesus' Time promoted the manmade religious philosophies and traditions of the Pharisees/Jews. And people back then, according to the Old Priesthood, had no other option but to go to the manmade shrine of worship of their time, and be taught by men who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

But as Prophesied, God has provided His Law, His Judgments, His Morality, to every Man. So now, I don't have to go to the manmade shrines of worship promoting one religion over another to know God. He has literally written His word in my mind, just His Word and me. Jesus speaks to this in Matt. 6, as HE tells us about God's Morality where worshipping and praying to Him is concerned.

We can see a host of similar issues ranging from engaging in nineteenth-century American Protestant religious practices only on Saturdays to divorce and remarriage to gender roles. The list is virtually endless.

You assume that the "Christianity" you speak of, is the same "Christianity" spoken of in Scriptures. While your adopted religion has changed, and is a progressive religion, the Morality of the examples of Faith God gave us in Scriptures, from Cain and Abel to the promise of the Lord's Christ to return to give to men according to their works, has remained the same for centuries. God's Sabbath remains the same. God's instruction regarding marriage has stayed the same. His Judgment regarding what is Holy, What is Clean, What is Good, has not changed, one jot or one tittle.

The religions of this world have changed and morphed since the tower of Babel. And I am grateful for that.


A common methodology to defend the notion of "The Moral Law" in the face of differing understandings within Christianity is to somehow denigrate offending viewpoints to establish one's own understanding as being either superior to varying degrees if not exclusively true for all times and all Christians.

Yes, this describes perfectly the discourse between us. I post scriptures, pose questions, in search of Biblical Truth, and you are here to promote your adopted religious philosophy regarding the Morality of God. It makes for a frustrating discussion, when the Scriptures posted, and the questions posed, are not acknowledged. But it is a common methodology.

One can cast one's opponents as being somehow less enlightened than oneself or, in the extreme, fake Christians who merit decimation.

Yes, this is also true. The alternative would be to consider all that is written in Scriptures as trustworthy , for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. And to Glorify God "as God" by believing from the heart that God is True, and every man a liar.
 
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Jonaitis

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Is morality a matter personal understanding only?
Or, is morality a matter of the narrowest understanding possible only? Lying is wrong, but we read that the midwives of Egypt, Shiphrah and Puah, lied for a good cause, and God blessed them.
 
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RandyPNW

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The reason it is called the "moral law" among some older traditions is that it distinguishes God's eternal laws from his private (or positive) laws given to a specific covenant group. While the Mosaic Law contains many commandments applicable today, they contain a majority of them as stipulations for the Israelites in their public worship and lifestyle. While it is a sin to steal (moral law), it is not a sin to consume pork (ceremonial law), unless you were an Israelite living under the Old Covenant. This division of the Mosaic Law is necessary in interpreting the New Covenant, because while the stipulations are distinct, the moral equity of them still applies today.
I think that's pretty well said. The Moral Law is, as many use it, the eternal law of God for human behavior. We were created in the image and likeness of God. If so, we must behave accordingly, ie according to "Moral Law."

This eternal Moral Law was in evidence during the time of the Mosaic Covenant. Therefore, one may be able to distinguish between laws that are eternal and laws that were specific to that covenant only. Thank you.

The problem comes when some wish to characterize this "eternal Moral Law" as the equivalent of the 10 Commandments. I think the 10 Commandments well places the entire Law of Moses in the context of Moral Law. But it is not strictly the same as Moral Law, since it is given in the context of the entire Law as a kind of subset or as a brief moral summary. And it contains Sabbath Law, which is specific to Moses' Covenant.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It never ceases to amaze me how one can take one of the commandments of God like not worshipping other gods, or coveting and deem it moral and determine in their view the other commandments of God’s in the same unit of the Ten Commandments are not, like its up to us or like the Ten Commandments are optional choices or suggestions. Or alter anything from His law- like any human has the authority to countermand what God personally wrote. God never said one is seven is the Sabbath- He was so clear the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10- God claims the Sabbath as His- His holy day Isa 58:13 that He made holy for us Exo 20:8 who are we to determine that is not moral. We are not God. We should not make the Bible into our image it is to reflect the image of God that we are to be transformed in His Likeness, not ours.

Everything Christ did is righteous and moral - did He not keep the Sabbath? Luke 4:16 John 15:10 is He not our example to follow? 1 John 2:6 Did He not teach not to break the least of the commandments and teach not to keep our rules over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten. All of God’s commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 and His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142

Depending on our version of righteousness or truth is not going to do us any good- we need God’s. Psa 119:151 Psa 119:172


Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants
Everyone
who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant
 
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bbbbbbb

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If it were then the tree of knowledge of good and evil wouldn't have been such a big deal.
Agreed. The problem that most people face is determining the level of significance in matters of morality. That was the primary reason for the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15.
 
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bbbbbbb

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It never ceases to amaze me how one can take one of the commandments of God like not worshipping other gods, or coveting and deem it moral and determine in their view the other commandments of God’s in the same unit of the Ten Commandments are not, like its up to us or like the Ten Commandments are optional choices or suggestions. Or alter anything from His law- like any human has the authority to countermand what God personally wrote. God never said one is seven is the Sabbath- He was so clear the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10- God claims the Sabbath as His- His holy day Isa 58:13 that He made holy for us Exo 20:8 who are we to determine that is not moral. We are not God. We should not make the Bible into our image it is to reflect the image of God that we are to become.

Everything Christ did is righteous - did He not keep the Sabbath? Luke 4:16 John 15:10 is He not our example to follow? 1 John 2:6 Did He not teach not to break the least of the commandments and teach not to keep our rules over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten. All of God’s commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 and His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142

Depending on our version of righteousness or truth is not going to do us any good- we need God’s. Psa 119:151 Psa 119:172


Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants
Everyone
who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant
It never ceases to amaze me to observe various individuals who make a great profession concerning their obedience to only ten of God's commandments while they willfully choose to ignore and disobey all of the others.
 
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timothyu

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It never ceases to amaze me to observe various individuals who make a great profession concerning their obedience to only ten of God's commandments while they willfully choose to ignore and disobey all of the others.
That's like going to church and ignoring one's support for the military-industrial complex.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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It never ceases to amaze me to observe various individuals who make a great profession concerning their obedience to only ten of God's commandments while they willfully choose to ignore and disobey all of the others.
You’re making assumptions which is never a good idea. No one ever stated we are to only keep Ten Commandments- but God’s Ten Commandments are to be kept just the way He gave them.
 
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HIM

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Agreed. The problem that most people face is determining the level of significance in matters of morality. That was the primary reason for the council in Jerusalem in Acts 15.
That is not true. The problem most face is themselves. As an example look back over the posts here and see often they interject their own opinion rather than let the Word of God speak. Not speaking in respect to those who disagree with you either. Speaking in general.
 
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The Liturgist

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Loving all as self pretty well covers it all as it removes any self serving thoughts or actions that could harm another.

Indeed the Early Church Fathers remarked upon this, and likewise on how the Greatest Commandment “Thou shalt love the LORD Thy God with all Thy Heart, and with all Thy Soul, and with all Thy mind,” has the effect of not only precluding idolatry but of encouraging true piety and theosis.
 
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timothyu

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Indeed the Early Church Fathers remarked upon this, and likewise on how the Greatest Commandment “Thou shalt love the LORD Thy God with all Thy Heart, and with all Thy Soul, and with all Thy mind,” has the effect of not only precluding idolatry but of encouraging true piety and theosis.
Yes that is putting the will of God ahead of our own, the first rule we broke, our original sin. Rule number 1, put His will ahead of our selfish own
 
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It never ceases to amaze me how one can take one of the commandments of God like not worshipping other gods, or coveting and deem it moral and determine in their view the other commandments of God’s in the same unit of the Ten Commandments are not, like its up to us or like the Ten Commandments are optional choices or suggestions. Or alter anything from His law- like any human has the authority to countermand what God personally wrote. God never said one is seven is the Sabbath- He was so clear the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God Exo 20:10- God claims the Sabbath as His- His holy day Isa 58:13 that He made holy for us Exo 20:8 who are we to determine that is not moral. We are not God. We should not make the Bible into our image it is to reflect the image of God that we are to be transformed in His Likeness, not ours.

Everything Christ did is righteous and moral - did He not keep the Sabbath? Luke 4:16 John 15:10 is He not our example to follow? 1 John 2:6 Did He not teach not to break the least of the commandments and teach not to keep our rules over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten. All of God’s commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 and His righteousness is everlasting Psa 119:142

Depending on our version of righteousness or truth is not going to do us any good- we need God’s. Psa 119:151 Psa 119:172


Isa 56:1 Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
For My salvation is about to come,
And My righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
And the son of man who lays hold on it;
Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”

6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants
Everyone
who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant
You are getting the 2 covenants confused. We are not under the Law of Moses, which was given to ancient Israel. That Covenant was dispensed with at the Cross, where Israel's failure to obtain Eternal Life was countermanded by Christ's resurrection from the dead. Christ then became the exclusive New Covenant, by which man can obtain Eternal Life, rendering continued service to the Law of no value.

Not only was the Law of no value to non-Israelites it came to be of no value to Israelites, as well, since Jesus condemned the Temple worship in view of his own crucifixion. Not only did continued animal sacrifices become superfluous next to his own sacrifice, but it came to be an insult to him to continue with a system that was intended to be fulfilled in him.

Trying to tie Sabbath Law together with moral commands like "Do not murder" ignores the obvious inclusion of the 10 Commandments in the Temple Law, or the Old Covenant. We may very well continue to obey such prohibitions as to "not murder," but we may not do that under a Temple system that has been abandoned.
 
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Studyman

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You are getting the 2 covenants confused. We are not under the Law of Moses, which was given to ancient Israel. That Covenant was dispensed with at the Cross, where Israel's failure to obtain Eternal Life was countermanded by Christ's resurrection from the dead. Christ then became the exclusive New Covenant, by which man can obtain Eternal Life, rendering continued service to the Law of no value.

The preaching that God's Law has no value for men is the oldest deception ever recorded in Scriptures. Eve was convinced by a voice who also "professed to know God", that God's Law is of no value to her. Therefore, she became the god, and created her own law. And "many" who come in Christ's Name, have adopted this same religious philosophy which refuses to acknowledge some undeniable biblical facts.

#1. It's God's LAW, not Moses'. The deceiver cleverly omits this Godly truth in its deception. Moses never created even One Law. But it would be much harder for the deceiver to convince folks into believing that "Yielding themselves" Servants to obey God, has no value for men, so they use the term "Law of Moses", implying that an obedient servant, like His Son Jesus and other examples of faith given us by the God inspired scriptures, "yielded themselves" servants to obey Moses.

#2. Our reasonable service is to the One True God not a law. The New Covenant, as defined by God, doesn't represent the new covenant promoted by the deceiver. In God's New Covenant, HIS writes HIS Law on the hearts of those men who "Yield themselves servants" to obey Him, like Abraham did. Why? Because He created His Law "for men", for the wellbeing of men. That it might be well with men. For men's Admonition, for men's Sakes no doubt. At least this is what the scriptures teach. So in God's New covenant, God's Law has great value for men, so much so that God writes His Laws on their hearts. The deceiver doesn't want men to know the value of God's LAW to the inward man. So it preaches, through its many "ministers of righteousness" and those men who Paul said "Transforms themselves into Apostles of Christ", that God's Law is of no value.

The Jesus "of the Bible" speaks to this very thing in Matt. 7.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These men too, were deceived by men "who come in Christ's Name" to believe that God's Law had no value to them in the New covenant.

My hope is that you will follow the advice of the Christ "of the Bible" and consider "Every Word" which proceeds from the mouth of God, and not rely on the religious philosophies of the "Many" who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ that Jesus and Paul and the Prophets warned about.

Not only was the Law of no value to non-Israelites it came to be of no value to Israelites, as well, since Jesus condemned the Temple worship in view of his own crucifixion.

The Jesus "of the Bible" never condemned God's Commandments and Judgments. He condemned the religious philosophies of those who profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

And it is written;

Is. 66: 1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

The truly Faithful servants of God knew this.

Acts 7: 47 But Solomon built him an house. 48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

The deceiver would have us believe His Son Jesus, came to correct His Father and destroy His Father Commandments and Judgments that HE made for man, for their own "Good". The deceiver omits the Biblical fact that the those who professed to know God in His Time, had turned the Temple into a religious business. It wasn't God's Law that Jesus Condemned, it was the religious men who HE said Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Not only did continued animal sacrifices become superfluous next to his own sacrifice, but it came to be an insult to him to continue with a system that was intended to be fulfilled in him.

It is true that God "ADDED" Law regarding concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: for sin, because of Transgressions, "Till the SEED (Lamb of God) should come". As it is written;

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

And truly the Lamb of God did come and HE Fulfilled the LAW of Sacrifice according to the Promises in the New covenant of God.

"for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

The deceiver would have us believe Jesus came to destroy God's entire Law because it was of no value to men. But it was this deception that led to Israel's transgression in the first place. As written, God's instruction was very beneficial to Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, and many repentant men who God deemed "Faithful". And since I believe in the Christ "of the Bible", I believe God's Laws were written for me as well.

Trying to tie Sabbath Law together with moral commands like "Do not murder" ignores the obvious inclusion of the 10 Commandments in the Temple Law, or the Old Covenant.

"Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, who "come in Christ's Name", have exalted themselves as a "Judge" of God and His Law, determining for themselves the morality of God and His Word. But the examples of faith given us in the holy scriptures didn't exalt themselves in this manner. If God said something was Holy, then it was Holy. If God said it was clean, then it was clean. If God esteems one day above another, who am I to challenge HIM. If God something was created for the good of man, then what HE created is good for man.

If God wants to change the Priesthood Covenant, HE made with Israel after the golden calf, that is, the manner in which HIS LAW is received, and the manner in which sins are forgiven, that is fine with me.

We may very well continue to obey such prohibitions as to "not murder," but we may not do that under a Temple system that has been abandoned.

As Paul said, you are free to "Yield yourself" a servant to whom you wish to obey. You have judged or at least implied that much of God's Law that Jesus walked in, was "not moral" in many instances and of no value to you or any man.

Those "Christians" in Matt. 7 most certainly believed in the same religious philosophy. I'm hoping you might consider these Biblical truths.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You are getting the 2 covenants confused. We are not under the Law of Moses, which was given to ancient Israel. That Covenant was dispensed with at the Cross, where Israel's failure to obtain Eternal Life was countermanded by Christ's resurrection from the dead. Christ then became the exclusive New Covenant, by which man can obtain Eternal Life, rendering continued service to the Law of no value.

Not only was the Law of no value to non-Israelites it came to be of no value to Israelites, as well, since Jesus condemned the Temple worship in view of his own crucifixion. Not only did continued animal sacrifices become superfluous next to his own sacrifice, but it came to be an insult to him to continue with a system that was intended to be fulfilled in him.

Trying to tie Sabbath Law together with moral commands like "Do not murder" ignores the obvious inclusion of the 10 Commandments in the Temple Law, or the Old Covenant. We may very well continue to obey such prohibitions as to "not murder," but we may not do that under a Temple system that has been abandoned.
God's Ten Commandments are eternal. The Sabbath is all throughout the NC- still a commandment even after the Cross Luke 23:56 kept faithfully by the apostles every Sabbath decades after the Cross Acts 18:4 Acts 14:42-44 and still a sin to break the least of these as one would be least in heaven-Mat 5:19-30 heaven is not Old Covenant. We have free will to test this despite coming out of the mouth of God, we are to live by.
 
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RandyPNW

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God's Ten Commandments are eternal. The Sabbath is all throughout the NC- still a commandment even after the Cross Luke 23:56 kept faithfully by the apostles every Sabbath decades after the Cross Acts 18:4 Acts 14:42-44 and still a sin to break the least of these as one would be least in heaven-Mat 5:19-30 heaven is not Old Covenant. We have free will to test this despite coming out of the mouth of God, we are to live by.
Luke 23.56 is Old Testament. Even if Christians continued to observe the Sabbath, as some of them did, this did not mean it was a NT observance. It was in the NT era, but not according to NT doctrine.

Matt 5.19-30 is also Old Testament. Why are you using OT verses in an attempt to prove Sabbath Law in the NT era?

Paul arguing on the Sabbath with the Jews who were under the Law is not indicative of Paul's effort to comply with Sabbath Law for himself. Rather, it was an outreach to those who were still under the culture of Sabbath practice. Paul was following Jewish tradition, as opposed to Jewish Law that he deemed applicable to himself.

On the contrary, Paul claimed he was in no way obliged to keep "days" as prescribed by the Law of Moses.

Gal 4.10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
 
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Luke 23.56 is Old Testament. Even if Christians continued to observe the Sabbath, as some of them did, this did not mean it was a NT observance. It was in the NT era, but not according to NT doctrine.

Matt 5.19-30 is also Old Testament. Why are you using OT verses in an attempt to prove Sabbath Law in the NT era?

Paul arguing on the Sabbath with the Jews who were under the Law is not indicative of Paul's effort to comply with Sabbath Law for himself. Rather, it was an outreach to those who were still under the culture of Sabbath practice. Paul was following Jewish tradition, as opposed to Jewish Law that he deemed applicable to himself.

On the contrary, Paul claimed he was in no way obliged to keep "days" as prescribed by the Law of Moses.

Gal 4.10 You are observing special days and months and seasons and years!
You might consider looking at the index in your bible both Luke and Matthew are “New Testament”

Jesus teaching how not to be least in heaven is “Old Testament” and His teachings should be ignore instead of the example we are told to follow. 1 John 2:6 Jesus tells us to live by His every Word- so I feel bad this is what you believe. Not sure how one can believe in Jesus but not believe or follow His teachings.

Sadly many rely on Pauls scriptures that come with a warning that many people twist to their own destruction 2 Peter 3:16 over the plain teachings of Jesus when Paul himself kept every Sabbath decades after the cross and taught what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 just as Jesus taught. Mat 15:3-14 and lived. John 15:10 2 Peter 2:21-22 Heb 4:15
 
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