Total Depravity

[Neostarwcc]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

Please try to keep this thread on topic. Mainly addressing Total Depravity from Ephesians 2:1-5. I realize there are many other supporting verses and you may bring up verses that may seem to contradict Paul's point in Ephesians 2:1-5 but I want to keep this thread as on topic as possible. I mostly want people to address the OP. Mainly, of Total Depravity isn't true and people are free to choose Christ on their own why does Paul call the state in which a pre converted person exists, completely dead in trespasses and sins and that we need to be made alive?

 

[RandyPNW]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

Please try to keep this thread on topic. Mainly addressing Total Depravity from Ephesians 2:1-5. I realize there are many other supporting verses and you may bring up verses that may seem to contradict Paul's point in Ephesians 2:1-5 but I want to keep this thread as on topic as possible. I mostly want people to address the OP. Mainly, of Total Depravity isn't true and people are free to choose Christ on their own why does Paul call the state in which a pre converted person exists, completely dead in trespasses and sins and that we need to be made alive?

I'm a hybrid Free Will/Predestined person, if that makes sense at all? So this is how I answer your point....

When Paul refers to being "dead in sins" he is not talking about being unable to believe or to access Christian salvation. He is talking about the condemnation of all men, universally, in the garden of Eden, indicating that apart from the atonement of Christ all men are deemed "dead." That is, they have to be separated from a holy God.

This has nothing to do with the "Bondage of the Will," as Luther expressed it. I like Luther but disagree with his "bondage of the will."

Being separated from God by divine decree is purely a reference to our lost condition, apart from the atonement of Christ. It does not limit Man's ability to get back into God's good graces, nor limit his ability to respond to God's word, which is everywhere always speaking to the consciences of men. We simply need to respond to that word from God in our conscience in able to choose for the good or to be able to choose for Christian Salvation.

As far as Predestination goes, God governs what environment we are planted in and grow up in such that Man's bad choices effect the development of children *not planned by God.* The rebellious children, growing up on the "other side of the tracks," are the product of Man/Satan interference in God's good plan to produce all-good children that choose for and belong to Him. They tend to choose, freely, against God's word.

All children originally "planned" by God will come to Him. They are Predestined, in my opinion. They will ultimately respond to God's word for them.

 

[BobRyan]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

You need more than 5 verses to test the doctrine of total depravity.


IF it were true that depravity were "total" then there is NO SUCH THING as "hardening the heart"

Pharaoh could not have "hardened his heart"
God could not have "hardened Pharaoh's heart"

i.e. God does not harden a rock against the Gospel - nor does a rock harden itself against the gospel. dead is dead. total is total.

Mainly, of Total Depravity isn't true and people are free to choose Christ on their own why does Paul call the state in which a pre converted person exists, completely dead in trespasses and sins and that we need to be made alive?

Total depravity is false as we see from Rom 9 and from the Exodus account , even though it is true that without the supernatural "drawing of ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32 -- no one would come to Christ. Our depraved nature would leave us as slaves to sin.

 

[Clare73]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

And there is Ro 8:7-8, regarding the unregenerate nature and mind.

 

[Clare73]

You need more than 5 verses to test the doctrine of total depravity.

Ro 8:7-8 is pretty clear regarding the unregenerate nature and mind.

 

[BobRyan]

Ro 8:7-8 is pretty clear regarding the unregenerate nature and mind.

Indeed we know there is such a thing - but defining exactly what its limits and ability are - needs a few more texts as I noted in my post.

Especially when it is argued that "the drawing of all mankind unto Me" John 12:32 is "insufficient" to enable lost humanity in our depravity to hear Christ knocking at the door- and open the door.

 

[Clare73]

Indeed we know there is such a thing - but defining exactly what its limits and ability are - needs a few more texts as I noted in my post.

Ro 8:7-8 and 1 Co 2:14 define its limits very clearly. . .the unregenerate.

Especially when it is argued that "the drawing of all mankind unto Me" John 12:32 is "insufficient" to enable lost humanity in our depravity to hear Christ knocking at the door- and open the door.

"All" without distinction. . .or "all" without exception?

In the context of the Jewish mentality where they were the "only,"
"all" would often mean not them "only;" i.e, all without distinctionj. . .rather than all without exception.

All without distinction, not just Jews, are drawn.

 

[ladodgers6]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

Please try to keep this thread on topic. Mainly addressing Total Depravity from Ephesians 2:1-5. I realize there are many other supporting verses and you may bring up verses that may seem to contradict Paul's point in Ephesians 2:1-5 but I want to keep this thread as on topic as possible. I mostly want people to address the OP. Mainly, of Total Depravity isn't true and people are free to choose Christ on their own why does Paul call the state in which a pre converted person exists, completely dead in trespasses and sins and that we need to be made alive?

It's one of many, but very strong. The way I approach when discussing TD, is asking people their view on Sin and the Fall. Because if people lean or just disagree with TD, then ask why is Jesus needed at all? If people are not totally fallen, and people do have have a good inherent quality, then why did Christ have to suffer and die. Why not just start over and let by-gone be by-gones. Just sweep everything under the rug.​

 

[Grip Docility]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

Please try to keep this thread on topic. Mainly addressing Total Depravity from Ephesians 2:1-5. I realize there are many other supporting verses and you may bring up verses that may seem to contradict Paul's point in Ephesians 2:1-5 but I want to keep this thread as on topic as possible. I mostly want people to address the OP. Mainly, of Total Depravity isn't true and people are free to choose Christ on their own why does Paul call the state in which a pre converted person exists, completely dead in trespasses and sins and that we need to be made alive?

Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

Peter got it right after all! All is now specified to the Wicked as it is obvious that Peter was "Drawing" from Ezekiel 33:11

Ezekiel has God swearing by His Name by saying "As I Live", then echoing 2 Peter 3:9 to the Wicked... and imploring them to Use God Blessed Self Sovereign Autonomy to turn back to Him.

Scripture is Scriptures best Commentary.

Incase it is disputed... Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” This is the declaration of the Lord God. “Instead, don’t I take pleasure when he turns from his ways and lives?

Still in doubt? 2 Samual 14:14 We must all die; we are like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. But God will not take away life, and he devises means so that the banished one will not remain an outcast.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

J. Wesley "And he hath quickened you - In Eph 1:19-20, St. Paul spoke of God's working in them by the same almighty power whereby he raised Christ from the dead. On the mention of this he, in the fulness of his heart, runs into a flow of thought concerning the glory of Christ's exaltation in the three following verses. He here resumes the thread of his discourse. Who were dead - Not only diseased, but dead; absolutely void of all spiritual life; and as incapable of quickening yourselves, as persons literally dead."

In Him

Bill

 

[eleos1954]

In Ephesians 2:1-5 Paul describes the state of a believer pre regeneration (Dead in trespasses and sins) and after regeneration (Made alive by God). This is one of the strongest arguments for Total Depravity in the Bible so I wanted to discuss whether or not Total Depravity was true or not based on these 5 verses.

Please try to keep this thread on topic. Mainly addressing Total Depravity from Ephesians 2:1-5. I realize there are many other supporting verses and you may bring up verses that may seem to contradict Paul's point in Ephesians 2:1-5 but I want to keep this thread as on topic as possible. I mostly want people to address the OP. Mainly, of Total Depravity isn't true and people are free to choose Christ on their own why does Paul call the state in which a pre converted person exists, completely dead in trespasses and sins and that we need to be made alive?

We must remember that our hearts are naturally depraved, and we are unable of ourselves to pursue a right course without Christ. So yes, all are in the state of total depravity until they sincerely invite Christ into their hearts and repent ... through Him we will be transformed from death unto life. He is continuously sanctifying us throughout our earthly life time.

 

[Neostarwcc]

You need more than 5 verses to test the doctrine of total depravity.


IF it were true that depravity were "total" then there is NO SUCH THING as "hardening the heart"

Pharaoh could not have "hardened his heart"
God could not have "hardened Pharaoh's heart"

i.e. God does not harden a rock against the Gospel - nor does a rock harden itself against the gospel. dead is dead. total is total.

Total depravity is false as we see from Rom 9 and from the Exodus account , even though it is true that without the supernatural "drawing of ALL mankind unto ME" John 12:32 -- no one would come to Christ. Our depraved nature would leave us as slaves to sin.

Funny you should mention God hardening Pharoah. God did harden Pharaoh's heart but as you can see God's hardening of Pharaoh's heart wasn't based on anything Pharoah had done and wasnt done because Pharoah wasn't already totally depraved in nature but rather so that he would not let the israelites go free until God said that they they could go free. Notice how after his son dies God stops hardening Pharaoh's heart and he becomes open to letting the israelites go and giving into Moses's demands.

Israel was set free at the exact moment that God said that they could go free.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I'm a hybrid Free Will/Predestined person, if that makes sense at all? So this is how I answer your point....

When Paul refers to being "dead in sins" he is not talking about being unable to believe or to access Christian salvation. He is talking about the condemnation of all men, universally, in the garden of Eden, indicating that apart from the atonement of Christ all men are deemed "dead." That is, they have to be separated from a holy God.

This has nothing to do with the "Bondage of the Will," as Luther expressed it. I like Luther but disagree with his "bondage of the will."

Being separated from God by divine decree is purely a reference to our lost condition, apart from the atonement of Christ. It does not limit Man's ability to get back into God's good graces, nor limit his ability to respond to God's word, which is everywhere always speaking to the consciences of men. We simply need to respond to that word from God in our conscience in able to choose for the good or to be able to choose for Christian Salvation.

As far as Predestination goes, God governs what environment we are planted in and grow up in such that Man's bad choices effect the development of children *not planned by God.* The rebellious children, growing up on the "other side of the tracks," are the product of Man/Satan interference in God's good plan to produce all-good children that choose for and belong to Him. They tend to choose, freely, against God's word.

All children originally "planned" by God will come to Him. They are Predestined, in my opinion. They will ultimately respond to God's word for them.

You're going a tad off topic but I partially agree with you and then I disagree with you. First where I disagree. It's pretty clear from Paul's words in Romans and Ephesians that he's talking about how the spirit is spiritually dead and unable to accept the gospel call and God makes that person alive. Salvation is 100% a work of God and not a work of man. It was God who came to die for us because we couldn't live the perfect life that God required of us. Not to mention that we never would have lived in the first place. Notice Jesus's Prayer in John 17 when he says "I am not praying for the world but for those who you have given me." But anyway, were getting a tad off topic the point wasn't to debate Calvinism it was to debate Total Depravity from Ephesians 2. Were both getting a tad off base here.