Earth in hot water? Worries over sudden ocean warming spike

[Ophiolite]

Well ... here is the thing .... it's not that I (or others) don't believe (know) the climate is changing .... it is .... and it will .... what the difference is .... is what is causing it. The Bible teaches the earth is in fact dieing and that climatic events will worsen. We believe (know) that God is in control of everything and things will play out according to how He says it will ... no matter what we do or do not do.

To be assured of defeat all that is required is a defeatist attitude. I realise you do not see your position that way and therein lies the disagreement and why I view your position as an existential threat to humanity in particular and the biosphere at large. (The biosphere will survive and prosper again, but humanity? Not so much.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well ... here is the thing .... it's not that I (or others) don't believe (know) the climate is changing .... it is .... and it will .... what the difference is .... is what is causing it.

We do know what is causing the change. The signal is very clear now. It's greenhouse gasses

The Bible teaches the earth is in fact dieing and that climatic events will worsen. We believe (know) that God is in control of everything and things will play out according to how He says it will ... no matter what we do or do not do.

The Bible is not a climate book. The most important "climate" claims it makes (global flood, etc.) didn't happen.

As a evolutionist ... one must consider this because in order for evolution to be believed time is the major factor .... billions of random occurrences happening over billions of years ... without significant passage of "time" the theory falls completely flat.

As time exists, this "problem" is solved for the "evolutoinist".

So ... if time is an illusion (and it is) because it can only exist because of the human mind and time is calculated in accordance with planet earth.

Time is not psychological it can be measured. Measuring time is a whole and large area of metrology.

To many physicists, while we experience time as psychologically real (mind), time is not fundamentally real.

No, we don't think that. I've never heard any physicist make this claim. Ever.

 

[The Barbarian]

Well ... here is the thing .... it's not that I (or others) don't believe (know) the climate is changing .... it is .... and it will .... what the difference is .... is what is causing it.

Since Hanson's predictions were very precise, using only the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, that's powerful confirmation that predictions made in the 19th century about such warming were correct.

The Bible teaches the earth is in fact dieing and that climatic events will worsen.

Actually, it doesn't teach that. And seeing as climate is considerably better now than during the Middle Ages, that's also evidence that such an interpretation of scripture is wrong.

We believe (know) that God is in control of everything

He made us stewards of the Earth, and our stewardship will determine how that goes.

As a evolutionist ... one must consider this because in order for evolution to be believed time is the major factor .... billions of random occurrences happening over billions of years

Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't random. Maybe if you learned more about His creation, you'd do better in these discussions.

without significant passage of "time" the theory falls completely flat.

Actually, I was having a bit of fun with that quote. Lyrics from an old song by Chicago.

However, the evidence for long periods of time is quite compelling. Would you like to learn how we know?

 

[The Barbarian]

No, we don't think that. I've never heard any physicist make this claim. Ever.

Right:

Time is certainly a very complex topic in physics, and there are people who believe that time does not actually exist. One common argument they use is that Einstein proved that everything is relative, so time is irrelevant. In the bestselling book "The Secret," the authors write, "Time is just an illusion." Is this really true? Is time just a figment of our imagination?


Among physicists, there is no real doubt that time does really, truly exist. It's a measurable, observable phenomenon. Physicists are just divided a bit on what causes this existence, and what it means to say that it exists. Indeed, this question borders the realm of metaphysics and ontology (the philosophy of existence) as much as it does on the strictly empirical questions about time that physics is well-equipped to address.

Does Time Really Exist? A Physicist's Perspective

Some people wonder if time really exists. Here are arguments for and against the existence of time, from a physicist's perspective.

www.thoughtco.com

 

[eleos1954]

Since Hanson's predictions were very precise, using only the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, that's powerful confirmation that predictions made in the 19th century about such warming were correct.


Actually, it doesn't teach that. And seeing as climate is considerably better now than during the Middle Ages, that's also evidence that such an interpretation of scripture is wrong.


He made us stewards of the Earth, and our stewardship will determine how that goes.


Darwin's great discovery was that it isn't random. Maybe if you learned more about His creation, you'd do better in these discussions.


Actually, I was having a bit of fun with that quote. Lyrics from an old song by Chicago.

However, the evidence for long periods of time is quite compelling. Would you like to learn how we know?

The bible does teach it ... earth dieing

Isaiah 51:6
AMP
“Lift up your eyes to the heavens, Then look to the earth beneath; For the heavens will be torn to pieces and vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in like manner. But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness (justice) [and faithfully fulfilled promise] will not be broken.

I accept God's truth ... He knows all.

 

[eleos1954]

The bible does teach it ... earth dieing

Isaiah 51:6
AMP
“Lift up your eyes to the heavens, Then look to the earth beneath; For the heavens will be torn to pieces and vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in like manner. But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness (justice) [and faithfully fulfilled promise] will not be broken.

Believe this person Hansen or believe God.

I accept God's truth ... He knows all ... nobody else does.

 

[The Barbarian]

The bible does teach it ... earth dieing

Isaiah 51:6
AMP
“Lift up your eyes to the heavens, Then look to the earth beneath; For the heavens will be torn to pieces and vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in like manner. But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness (justice) [and faithfully fulfilled promise] will not be broken.

So it says the Earth will die someday. Not what you claimed at all.

I accept God's truth

Except for this time? Why is that?

... He knows all.

Then why not just trust Him for what He says?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Right:

Time is certainly a very complex topic in physics, and there are people who believe that time does not actually exist. One common argument they use is that Einstein proved that everything is relative, so time is irrelevant. In the bestselling book "The Secret," the authors write, "Time is just an illusion." Is this really true? Is time just a figment of our imagination?

"The Secret"...

 

[sjastro]

Well ... here is the thing .... it's not that I (or others) don't believe (know) the climate is changing .... it is .... and it will .... what the difference is .... is what is causing it. The Bible teaches the earth is in fact dieing and that climatic events will worsen. We believe (know) that God is in control of everything and things will play out according to how He says it will ... no matter what we do or do not do.

Scientists have known since the 1960s what is causing climate warming, they predicted the troposphere was warming and lower stratosphere was cooling.
Lower stratospheric cooling was confirmed in the late 1970s by satellite measurements removing any doubt AGW is the cause.

I find the attitude of Christians disgusting who use the Bible to justify their own ignorance and bigotry against science to the point of denying any moral responsibility of leaving the earth in a state for future generations to prosper.
The attitude is similar to the religious opposition against Edward Jenner's discovery of smallpox vaccination in the late 18th century, where if you were to die from smallpox it was the will of God and science should not interfere.

As a evolutionist ... one must consider this because in order for evolution to be believed time is the major factor .... billions of random occurrences happening over billions of years ... without significant passage of "time" the theory falls completely flat.

So ... if time is an illusion (and it is) because it can only exist because of the human mind and time is calculated in accordance with planet earth.

To many physicists, while we experience time as psychologically real (mind), time is not fundamentally real.

The issue amongst physicists is not whether time is real but if it is fundamental or emergent.
ΔE.Δt ≥ h/4π.
This equation tells us if a quantum system goes from state A to state B which is separated by an energy difference ΔE, the transition time difference is Δt.
We humans can't change the equation to say ΔE.Δt ≤ h/4π or ΔE.Δt = h/4π, the transition time is real we haven't made it up.

 

[SelfSim]

...
So ... if time is an illusion (and it is) because it can only exist because of the human mind and time is calculated in accordance with planet earth.

I'd like to see you convince anyone that time is an illusion .. namely because in order for you to do that, you'd have to demonstrate that time is a misinterpreted perception shared by all humans (because that's what 'illusion' means).

Unless you uniquely posses some kind of alien mindset, you'd need to cite the objective test excluding all references to time in it, in order to clearly distinguish the illusion of time, from the reality of time. Such a test would have to exclude tense references denoted by terms like 'is', 'was', 'will be', etc .. (including the Physics' operationally based references).

I predict you will fail .. and so, time is not an illusion. It remains objectively real.
That is; unless you have a misinterpreted perception of what is real .. (which alas, is more than likely).

To many physicists, while we experience time as psychologically real (mind), time is not fundamentally real.

Can you demonstrate, objectively, how 'psychologically real (mind)' is distinguishable from 'fundamentally real'?

I think not .. and therefore your point is objectively completely meaningless.

 

[Estrid]

The bible does teach it ... earth dieing

Isaiah 51:6
AMP
“Lift up your eyes to the heavens, Then look to the earth beneath; For the heavens will be torn to pieces and vanish like smoke, And the earth will wear out like a garment And its inhabitants will die in like manner. But My salvation will be forever, And My righteousness (justice) [and faithfully fulfilled promise] will not be broken.

I accept God's truth ... He knows all.

You accept that you knownwhst God's truth is

 

[Shemjaza]

Well ... here is the thing .... it's not that I (or others) don't believe (know) the climate is changing .... it is .... and it will .... what the difference is .... is what is causing it. The Bible teaches the earth is in fact dieing and that climatic events will worsen. We believe (know) that God is in control of everything and things will play out according to how He says it will ... no matter what we do or do not do.



As a evolutionist ... one must consider this because in order for evolution to be believed time is the major factor .... billions of random occurrences happening over billions of years ... without significant passage of "time" the theory falls completely flat.

So ... if time is an illusion (and it is) because it can only exist because of the human mind and time is calculated in accordance with planet earth.

To many physicists, while we experience time as psychologically real (mind), time is not fundamentally real.

If time is an illusion then the events that time separates into the flow we subjectively experience are still there.

Evidence demonstrates the evolution of life and the geological development of the Earth... it doesn't matter if you call the period 4 billion years, 6 thousand years, or the blink of Gods eye.

Evolution doesn't require time, it requires events... which it has.

 

[AV1611VET]

You accept that you know what God's truth is?

Stephen Hawking predicted physicists would soon find it.

And that was 36 years ago.

 

[SelfSim]

If time is an illusion then the events that time separates into the flow we subjectively experience are still there.

Evidence demonstrates the evolution of life and the geological development of the Earth... it doesn't matter if you call the period 4 billion years, 6 thousand years, or the blink of Gods eye.

Evolution doesn't require time, it requires events... which it has.

Defining 'an event', in practical terms, requires ignoring some finite interval of time, for the sake of achieving a practical outcome.
Impulse events are a special case in Physics and there is a minimum limit to their duration, below which, such events are not physically possible, (see @sjastro's post# 469).

Evolutionary events are, in no way, instantaneous in Physics. They are still time dependent.

 

[Shemjaza]

Defining 'an event', in practical terms, requires ignoring some finite interval of time, for the sake of achieving a practical outcome.
Impulse events are a special case in Physics and there is a minimum limit to their duration, below which, such events are not physically possible, (see @sjastro's post# 469).

Evolutionary events are, in no way, instantaneous in Physics. They are still time dependent.

I accept that, but I my impression of eleos1954's use of the concept of "time is an illusion" is about the existence of a "now" and any particular impression about the passing of time being subjective.

 

[SelfSim]

I accept that, but I my impression of eleos1954's use of the concept of "time is an illusion" is about the existence of a "now" and any particular impression about the passing of time being subjective.

Hmm .. ok .. guess we'll find out.

'Now' is also reference to a particular time slice, (ie: the present), so if time is an illusion, so is the 'now' ..

'Time is an illusion' depends more on how illusions are distinguished .. @eleos1954 has no hope of doing that when it comes to time, other than by just believing it, so we can safely completely ignore his objections when it comes to the reality of the principles of Evolution and planetary Geology/Atmospheric/Oceanic changes, eh(?)

Cheers

 

[Ophiolite]

Hmm .. ok .. guess we'll find out.

'Now' is also reference to a particular time slice, (ie: the present), so if time is an illusion, so is the 'now' ..

'Time is an illusion' depends more on how illusions are distinguished .. @eleos1954 has no hope of doing that when it comes to time, other than by just believing it, so we can safely completely ignore his objections when it comes to the reality of the principles of Evolution and planetary Geology/Atmospheric/Oceanic changes, eh(?)

Cheers

Metaphorically it looks like a form of bait and switch. @eleos1954 has been arguing within the confines of physical science. His interpretations of the data may be different, his perception of the data may be different, from those accepting of AGW, but it is the same playing field. His arguments have not been convincing and the counter arguments solid. So he changes the game. We go from physics to metaphysics, thereby generating a degree of confusion. It could be considered masterful if it wasn't so sad.

 

[eclipsenow]

We do know what is causing the change. The signal is very clear now. It's greenhouse gasses

The Bible is not a climate book. The most important "climate" claims it makes (global flood, etc.) didn't happen.

As time exists, this "problem" is solved for the "evolutoinist".

Time is not psychological it can be measured. Measuring time is a whole and large area of metrology.

No, we don't think that. I've never heard any physicist make this claim. Ever.

We're getting way off the subject - and this is way over my social sciences background - but it's a theory I've heard of before. I don't like it or agree with it philosophically - and think temporal becoming is self evident - but here's the link. Meet the B theory of time. (It gives me a headache)

B-theory of time - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Hans Blaster]

We're getting way off the subject - and this is way over my social sciences background - but it's a theory I've heard of before. I don't like it or agree with it philosophically - and think temporal becoming is self evident - but here's the link. Meet the B theory of time. (It gives me a headache)

B-theory of time - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I really don't care about "theories of time" and they have nothing to do with this thread.

 

[eleos1954]

We do know what is causing the change. The signal is very clear now. It's greenhouse gasses

The Bible is not a climate book. The most important "climate" claims it makes (global flood, etc.) didn't happen.

As time exists, this "problem" is solved for the "evolutoinist".

Time is not psychological it can be measured. Measuring time is a whole and large area of metrology.

No, we don't think that. I've never heard any physicist make this claim. Ever.

Time is not psychological it can be measured. Measuring time is a whole and large area of metrology.

It can't be measured unless there is an intelligent mind TO measure it. You can't get around that fact.

I'm not alone in this thinking ... time being an illusion

Time is a fundamental aspect of our lives and the universe, shaping the way we think and experience the world around us. Many scientists and philosophers argue that time is not a fixed and objective reality, but rather a subjective and human-made illusion.

According to theoretical physicist Carlo Rovelli, time is an illusion: our naive perception of its flow doesn't correspond to physical reality.

Because time doesn't exist in a physical form, many scientists have questioned whether it even exists, as well as how it passes and why.

What Einstein had shown was that there is no universal “now.” Whether two events are simultaneous is relative to the observer. And once simultaneity goes by the board, the very division of moments into “past,” “present,” and “future” becomes meaningless.

Requires an observer according to Einstein.

There are lots of theories about it. So pick your theory ... that don't mean the theory you pick is fact. Existence of time without mankind is a total unknown.

It's rather interesting and profound really. ;o)

Time is not psychological it can be measured. Measuring time is a whole and large area of metrology.

Takes a mind. There is no way to determine time without an intelligent mind of some sort. Time exists because we do.