Some contend against Blessed Mary

Valletta

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Some say that MARY is in heaven a FALLACIOUS , because John 3:13 says , that no man hath ascended up to heaven , but He that that came down from HEAVEN , even the Son of Man which is in heaven .
All Jews who died went to Abraham.s Bosom in Luke 16:22 and 23 or there would have a special resurrection ,

Mary is not in HEAVEN , PERIOD .

dan p
The Bible disagrees with you:

Revelation 12: [a]And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. 3 And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; 5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. RSVCE
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Mary is not in HEAVEN
How would you know? Have you had a letter or a telephone call from someone who is in heaven?

Catholics are confident that Blessed Mary is in heaven for many reasons,
  • because she is seen in heaven in Revelation 11 and 12;
  • because Jesus promised that those who believed in him would be in heaven;
  • because the Catholic Church teaches that she is in heaven.
On the other hand we have your post shouting the opposite, your post's claim is not convincing.
 
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FredVB

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We do not know any who would not be in heaven. We cannot know. Any might come to God and be accepted without us knowing. Mary still was not uniquely going to Heaven. She was called blessed, and so she was, and still could come to salvation as anyone else would, through Christ, and she did follow Christ ultimately.
 
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JoeT

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We do not know any who would not be in heaven. We cannot know. Any might come to God and be accepted without us knowing. Mary still was not uniquely going to Heaven. She was called blessed, and so she was, and still could come to salvation as anyone else would, through Christ, and she did follow Christ ultimately.
I contend that the Catholic Marian Doctrines are not only profitable to knowing Jesus Christ, but are also a necessity to our love of the Lord. Christ made many promises; e.g. to those who love God is given the same power as the son of God, they become adopted sons and daughters of God.

St. Augustine once said, and I’ll paraphrase, ‘no one can love what is not known’. [St. Augustine, On the Holy Trinity, X] St. Paul gets more to the point couching it a little differently, “But if any man love God, the same is known by him." [1 Corinthians 8:3]. You might recall from the Magnificat where Mary makes two passionate statements. The first is she is the handmaiden of the Holy Spirit, implying a spousal relationship. The other is that her soul “magnifies the Lord”.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." [Luke 1:46-55]​

The four Marian dogmas regarding Mary are the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity, and Assumption, I’m not sure if they came in that order. Nevertheless, each of these doctrines ‘magnify’ the Lord who is the Second Person of the Trinity, wholly Divine, wholly human without mixing or confusion, in unity uniquely and inseparably joined. It would be heartless for the King take His thrown in Heaven while keeping His Queen mother in limbo till His second coming. Mary was chosen from the beginning of time to be the bride of the Holy Spirit. Residing in heaven the Holy Spirit would want His spouse with Him.

Consequently, without understanding and knowing all four doctrines one does not truly know Jesus Christ except maybe superficially, a leavened faith as opposed to a rock solid faith [Cf. 1 Corinthians 8:3]. Jesus Christ becomes a confused image in a dark opaque shadow. Hence those whose claim to love God is as fervent as Mary's love of God is His Mother. [Luke 8:21]


JoeT
 
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BobRyan

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Is it "contending against the Apostle Paul" to say he is not "The King of heaven"?
IS it "contending against the Apostle Paul" to say he is not born sinless and to note that no Bible text claims such a thing about him"?
IS it "contending against the Apostle Paul" to say that " no Bible text claims he was bodily assumed into heaven"?
 
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Valletta

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I contend that the Catholic Marian Doctrines are not only profitable to knowing Jesus Christ, but are also a necessity to our love of the Lord. Christ made many promises; e.g. to those who love God is given the same power as the son of God, they become adopted sons and daughters of God.

St. Augustine once said, and I’ll paraphrase, ‘no one can love what is not known’. [St. Augustine, On the Holy Trinity, X] St. Paul gets more to the point couching it a little differently, “But if any man love God, the same is known by him." [1 Corinthians 8:3]. You might recall from the Magnificat where Mary makes two passionate statements. The first is she is the handmaiden of the Holy Spirit, implying a spousal relationship. The other is that her soul “magnifies the Lord”.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." [Luke 1:46-55]​

The four Marian dogmas regarding Mary are the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity, and Assumption, I’m not sure if they came in that order. Nevertheless, each of these doctrines ‘magnify’ the Lord who is the Second Person of the Trinity, wholly Divine, wholly human without mixing or confusion, in unity uniquely and inseparably joined. It would be heartless for the King take His thrown in Heaven while keeping His Queen mother in limbo till His second coming. Mary was chosen from the beginning of time to be the bride of the Holy Spirit. Residing in heaven the Holy Spirit would want His spouse with Him.

Consequently, without understanding and knowing all four doctrines one does not truly know Jesus Christ except maybe superficially, a leavened faith as opposed to a rock solid faith [Cf. 1 Corinthians 8:3]. Jesus Christ becomes a confused image in a dark opaque shadow. Hence those whose claim to love God is as fervent as Mary's love of God is His Mother. [Luke 8:21]


JoeT
The Blessed Mother has a unique relationship with God and she intercedes for the Church.
 
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BobRyan

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I contend that the Catholic Marian Doctrines are not only profitable to knowing Jesus Christ, but are also a necessity to our love of the Lord.
How so - given that almost all non-Catholics do not hold to all Catholic Marian Doctrines?
Christ made many promises; e.g. to those who love God is given the same power as the son of God, they become adopted sons and daughters of God.
Is that what you are calling "Marian Doctrine"?
Mary makes two passionate statements. The first is she is the handmaiden of the Holy Spirit, implying a spousal relationship.
Boaz tells Ruth to remain with his handmaidens. Is it your claim that Boaz had many wives at the time ?

Ruth 2:13

Then she said, Let me find favour in thy sight, my lord; for that thou hast comforted me, and for that thou hast spoken friendly unto thine handmaid, though I be not like unto one of thine handmaidens.

All christian women are viewed the same when it comes to God -
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The other is that her soul “magnifies the Lord”.

And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior.​
No doubt this is common to all Christians
Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." [Luke 1:46-55]​
No doubt all Christians agree with this... if that is all you mean.
The four Marian dogmas regarding Mary are the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception
nothing in the above verses says that Mary's mother gave birth to a sinless being.
, perpetual virginity,
Nothing in the above texts says the Mary never had any other children. The Bible says Joseph kept her a virgin "until the child was born".

Matt 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
As compared to "until the day he died" ...
and Assumption
None of the texts you quoted say that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven.
 
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Valletta

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How so - given that almost all non-Catholics do not hold to all Catholic Marian Doctrines?
They lack the fullness of the faith. Many understand the intercessory power of prayer but not of the saints.
 
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BobRyan

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They lack the fullness of the faith. Many understand the intercessory power of prayer but not of the saints.
I don't know of any Christians that do not ask other Christians to pray for them.
But the Catholic church has a doctrine they call 'Communion with the Dead' -- that most non-Catholic groups do not engage in
 
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Valletta

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Nothing in the above texts says the Mary never had any other children. The Bible says Joseph kept her a virgin "until the child was born".

Matt 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
As compared to "until the day he died" ...

None of the texts you quoted say that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven.
Yours is a lack of knowledge of the Biblical language. The word translated into the English "until" says nothing about what happened after the event. As to an explicit statement of the Assumption in the Bible, there is none. But Catholics, like all Christians for well over a thousand years, are not Bible-only followers. The Assumption is a truth revealed by God.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

Nothing in the above texts says the Mary never had any other children. The Bible says Joseph kept her a virgin "until the child was born".

Matt 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
As compared to "until the day he died" ...

None of the texts you quoted say that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven.
Yours is a lack of knowledge of the Biblical language. The word translated into the English "until" says nothing about what happened after the event.
As compared to "until the day he died" ...
As to an explicit statement of the Assumption in the Bible, there is none.
I think we can all see that.
The Assumption is a truth revealed by God.
but not in the Bible?

====================

Is it "contending against the Apostle Paul" to say he is not "The King of heaven"?
IS it "contending against the Apostle Paul" to say he is not born sinless and to note that no Bible text claims such a thing about him"?
IS it "contending against the Apostle Paul" to say that " no Bible text claims he was bodily assumed into heaven"?
 
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JoeT

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How so - given that almost all non-Catholics do not hold to all Catholic Marian Doctrines?
They don't know Christ, they don't hold the truth, nor do they hold the authority in Scripture. It's known that what is held by the Catholic Church is rejected by Protestants, as their name would indicate.
Is that what you are calling "Marian Doctrine"?
A doctrine of the Church is binding on a believer. Thus, the true believer is bound to the Marian Doctrines as follows,
  1. Mary is the Mother of God, theotokos Council of Chalcedon (451)
  2. Mary is a perpetual virgin, Council of the Lateran, (649)
  3. Mary was Immaculately conceived. That is born without original sin, "Ineffabilis Deus" (December 8, 1854)
  4. Mary was assumed into heaven, Munificentissimus Deus, (1950)

Boaz tells Ruth to remain with his handmaidens. Is it your claim that Boaz had many wives at the time ?

Ruth 2:13

Then she said, Let me find favour in thy sight, my lord; for that thou hast comforted me, and for that thou hast spoken friendly unto thine handmaid, though I be not like unto one of thine handmaidens.
Wouldn't know how many wives Boaz had. I was talking about handmaiden's role in the family beyond servant.

The relationship wasn't always servile, sometimes it had a familial characteristic. In Sacred Scripture there are at least three examples scriptural examples where the handmaid, a servant was given to the lord of the house to bear seed, i.e. children. In at least one case there was a spousal relationship, likely in all three examples. There is Agar, Sarai's handmaid who ran away from her mistress, told to humble herself and return by an angel. Her seed would be multiplied by multitudes. Eventually, given to Abraham bearing a son. Also, there was Zelpha, Lia’s handmaid given to her husband to bear children, two sons. Lia said her handmaid brought a blessing to her, Aser. Again one more example is Rachel’s handmaid, Bala who was given in marriage. [Cf. Genesis 16; 30].

It's quite clear that there was a marital relationship for "handmaidens" at times. Rachel gave her servant girl in marriage. [Cf. Genesis 30:4-5]. In my mind, feeble as it might be, when there is marriage there exists family, a husband and a wife, man and woman; in the non-woke world these were called spouses, two united as one. Thus, we hold Mary the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
All christian women are viewed the same when it comes to God -
Acts 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

No doubt this is common to all Christians

No doubt all Christians agree with this... if that is all you mean.

nothing in the above verses says that Mary's mother gave birth to a sinless being.
Christ is the inseparable union of God and man, two natures one Divine hypostasis without mixing, mingling or confusion. On the other hand it is the nature of man to be born deprived of original justice once held by Adam. You might recall Adam knew God, walked with God but deprived of the honor God once gave him in the act of the original sin. As Adam's progeny we too are deprived of 'knowing' God until Baptism. “Justice is uprightness rectitude-of-will kept for its own sake.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Continuing Anselm said, “Justice is not rightness of knowledge or rightness of action but is rightness of will.” [St. Anselm, On Truth, 12]. Until baptism, where some semblance of justification is restored in the founts of the Church, we remain part of the corporate army of Satin, no amount of bible reading will restore that wound - only Baptism. Every act before Baptism is avaricious, we merit death.

One of the natures of Jesus Christ is his humanity. Unless He is born of a New Eve (Mary) Jesus would bear the same depravity of original justice. We believe that Mary was received the same grace of justification at her conception so that she never knew sin. Else, you have a mad god who is not rectified with himself and is both evil and good.

Nothing in the above texts says the Mary never had any other children. The Bible says Joseph kept her a virgin "until the child was born".

Matt 1:25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
As compared to "until the day he died" ...
The word "till" or "until" [heōs in Greek] does not always designate the termination of an act or virtue at the specified time. If it did we'd all be in trouble, as an example "Behold I am with you all days, even, [heōs], until, the consummation of the world". Matthew 28:20. Are we to understand that once the world is consummated Jesus is no longer with us? Or, how about, “And the child grew, and was strengthened in spirit; and was in the deserts until [heōs] the day of his manifestation to Israel." [Luke 1:80]. Does the Christ lose his strength in spirit when He is revealed to Israel at the wedding in Cana [John 2:1]?
None of the texts you quoted say that Mary was bodily assumed into heaven.
You were promised to be assumed into heaven, was that a false claim by Christ?

JoeT
 
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JoeT

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I don't know of any Christians that do not ask other Christians to pray for them.
But the Catholic church has a doctrine they call 'Communion with the Dead' -- that most non-Catholic groups do not engage in
962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

"The dead who are being purified" = those in purgatory. We pray for their purification and their entrance into heaven.

JoeT
 
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As compared to "until the day he died" ...
Your comparison is odd since it actually backs up the Traditional understanding. It proves that "until" does not require the previous condition to change.

"He ate no meat until the day he died", doesn't mean that he started a paleo diet on his death.

"The children worked quietly until the teacher returned", does not require that the children stopped working quietly when the teacher returned (unless it's Monty Python), in fact it is silent on what happened next.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

As compared to "until the day he died" ...
Your comparison is odd since it actually backs up the Traditional understanding. It proves that "until" does not require the previous condition to change.
"until the child was born" is not at all the same as "until the day he died".

there is a not-so-subtle difference that all can see.

One allows for a number of things to happen after the child is born - the other does not.


"He ate no meat until the day he died", doesn't mean that he started a paleo diet on his death.
Actually it defeats your argument because "until the day he died" makes it very certain that he did not do any of that sort of meat eating after that point.

Write any book you like and include things like "he did not eat any meat until the day he died" and see how often your readers respond with "yes but when he died then must have eaten a lot of meat from then on"..

Not many will conclude that that is a logical idea to draw from such statements since it is a given that "he did nothing at all" when he died when it comes to eating meat -- it was no longer possible.

As compared to "he ate no meat at all until he reached the age of 20" -- Again - see how many readers conclude "well then he must have lived the rest of his life as a vegetarian after the age of 20".

I don't see how that is even a little bit confusing.
 
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BobRyan

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962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

"The dead who are being purified" = those in purgatory. We pray for their purification and their entrance into heaven.

JoeT
958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them." Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective
 
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JoeT

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958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them." Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective
And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them [2 Machabees 12:45]. It was hoped that thesse men had died for God and the Jewish religion. Thus, we pray that those in purgatory are released to heaven. "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" [2 Machabees 12:46].

The Kingdom consists of those on earth (the Church Militant), those in purgatory (the Church suffering), and those in heaven, (the Church Triumphant). Hence we pray for one another, not just those here on earth but the entire "Mystical Body of Jesus Christ". And yes, our prayers are intercessory in nature, real, and effective.

JoeT
 
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Valletta

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Actually it defeats your argument because "until the day he died" makes it very certain that he did not do any of that sort of meat eating after that point.
The Greek word simply says nothing about what happened after the event. That is the Word of God. The English translation words alone, without knowledge of the original, sometimes can mean something happened after the event and sometimes not. You were given an example where it obviously does not. Even with your analysis of the English words, pretending the Bible did not exist for the sake of argument, your claim lacks proof and would be mere speculation. The original Koine Greek, the Word of God, shows your claim that it does tell us what happened after the event is incorrect.
 
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