Evolution, one more argument against

Aussie Pete

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Should you have anything substantive to say, by all means post it. Insults may make you feel better but they really don't advance the discussion.
I've had enough discussions with Darwinists to know that most treat non-Darwinists with contempt. And it does not matter who the non-Darwinist might be. As Professor James Tour can attest. Anyone would think that the Darwinist's world view is so fragile that it has to be defended at all costs.


The "wonder" of evolution is how flexible it is. Crocodiles are millions of years old yet have not evolved. There is a tree in Australia supposedly 200 million years old. It's the Wollemi pine. So if there is change it is evolution. If there is no change, it is evolution. The "wonder" of evolution is why anyone would believe it.
 
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Job 33:6

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:)

You should read my original post #92 again.

Because you just proved the last point I made in it.

Creationism hasn't changed its position, or explanation, once in .... how many millennia?

Not lookin too good for your coveted scientific theory of evolution.

Shrugs*. The theory does not propose that man evolved from monkeys. So I'm not sure what youre trying to say.
 
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Think...

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Shrugs*. The theory does not propose that man evolved from monkeys. So I'm not sure what youre trying to say.
It did at one time; and that's what it's been well known for, for probably the last century or more.

That's exactly my point.

If it's changed its spots over time, like a corporate company changing its social image due to bad press, that means it alters its claims about itself periodically to keep up with the constant exposing of its faulty claims that just don't add up to documented evidence.

And how many times has Creationism had to change its stance?

God doesn't change and neither do His claims.
 
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sfs

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Um ... you believe mankind came from monkeys???
I believe humans and monkeys descend from a common ancestor, one that you would no doubt call a monkey. I believe that based on an enormous amount of evidence. Now, again, please tell me how I have been indoctrinated. And I do mean how. What form did this indoctrination take?
 
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sfs

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I've had enough discussions with Darwinists to know that most treat non-Darwinists with contempt. And it does not matter who the non-Darwinist might be. As Professor James Tour can attest. Anyone would think that the Darwinist's world view is so fragile that it has to be defended at all costs.
And I've had enough discussions with creationists to know that most will resort to almost any tactic to avoid discussing data.
The "wonder" of evolution is how flexible it is. Crocodiles are millions of years old yet have not evolved. There is a tree in Australia supposedly 200 million years old. It's the Wollemi pine. So if there is change it is evolution. If there is no change, it is evolution. The "wonder" of evolution is why anyone would believe it.
The "wonder" of oxidation is how flexible it is. Gold can go millions of years without oxidizing, while iron can start to rust within weeks. The "wonder" of oxidation is why anyone would believe it.
 
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Job 33:6

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It did at one time; and that's what it's been well known for, for probably the last century or more.

That's exactly my point.

If it's changed its spots over time, like a corporate company changing its social image due to bad press, that means it alters its claims about itself periodically to keep up with the constant exposing of its faulty claims that just don't add up to documented evidence.

And how many times has Creationism had to change its stance?

God doesn't change and neither do His claims.
I don't recall Darwin ever proposing such a thing. Surely you know that there's a difference between an ape and a monkey.
 
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Think...

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Surely you know that there's a difference between an ape and a monkey.
Surely you know man didn't come from either of them. Nor from pond scum, nor from any other explanation of millions of years of magickal transformation from one species to another.
 
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Job 33:6

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Surely you know man didn't come from either of them. Nor from pond scum, nor from any other explanation of millions of years of magickal transformation from one species to another.
Man evolved from archaic sapiens.
And speciation is observed in nature regularly. There isn't anything magical about it.
 
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Think...

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Man evolved from archaic sapiens.
Uh huh. And where did those come from?
And speciation is observed in nature regularly. There isn't anything magical about it.
The discovery of previously unknown species is not speciation.

I'm well aware I will never change your mind on these things, but I'm content to dance for a bit.

It only sharpens my own blade against the ongoing, and latest, positions of those who have a desperate need to reject God's explanation and embrace something more scientific.
 
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Job 33:6

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Uh huh. And where did those come from?

The discovery of previously unknown species is not speciation.

I'm well aware I will never change your mind on these things, but I'm content to dance for a bit.

It only sharpens my own blade against the ongoing, and latest, positions of those who have a desperate need to reject God's explanation and embrace something more scientific.
It's not just the discovery of previously known species, but rather the observation of species descending from prior species.
And that's why most young earth creationists have abandoned the idea that created "kinds" are species.
Until YECs come up with a response to the "summation" argument, there's not really much they can do.
 
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Think...

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It's not just the discovery of previously known species, but rather the observation of species descending from prior species.

And that's why most young earth creationists have abandoned the idea that created "kinds" are species.

Until YECs come up with a response to the "summation" argument, there's not really much they can do.
As educational as these debates can be, there's not much any of us can do for those who cannot see the Truth of God and His Word.

Contrary to the modern mainstream christian position, Faith is actually a gift from God. Until/unless one is given that gift, none of us can change that person's inability to see the Truth.
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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What is the difference between evolutionary creation and theistic evolution? Is there a difference?

The most important word in the term "evolutionary creation" is the noun "creation." These Christian evolutionists are first and foremost thoroughly committed and unapologetic creationists. They believe that the world is a creation that is absolutely dependent for every instant of its existence on the will and grace of the Creator. The qualifying word in this category is the adjective "evolutionary," indicating simply the method through which the Lord made the cosmos and living organisms. This view of origins is often referred to as theistic evolution. However, such a word arrangement places the process of evolution as the primary term, and makes the Creator secondary as merely a qualifying adjective. Such an inversion in priority is unacceptable to me and other evolutionary creationists.

Denis Lamoureux, "Evolutionary Creation: Moving Beyond the Evolution Versus Creation Debate," Christian Higher Education 9, no. 1 (2010), p. 29. Emphasis mine.

Views similar to mine are sometimes identified with the label "theistic evolution." But that term has some very serious shortcomings. As I see it, it turns the order of importance of divine and creaturely action upside down. Because it appears as the noun, the term evolution—which focuses our attention on the natural action of creatures—appears to be the central idea. Meanwhile, by referring to God only in the adjective, theistic, the importance of divine creative action seems to be secondary. But that implication would be unacceptable to me.

Howard Van Till, "The Fully Gifted Creation," in J. P. Moreland and John Mark Reynolds, eds., Three Views on Creation and Evolution (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), p. 172.

-- Attn.: @SkovandOfMitzae


  • A hypothesis is a tentative explanation that can be tested by further investigation.

As I have explained elsewhere in my apologetics writing (for my local church), in explaining the difference between law, theory, and hypothesis,

In science, a law is a generalization about empirical data which seeks to describe the regular and consistent patterns and relationships that are found. But these are descriptions of what, which are different from explanations of how or why. That is the role of a theory, a concise unifying conceptual structure that seeks to explain observed and predicted empirical phenomena (causes, forces, etc.) and their relationships. Theories also tend to encompass and integrate many different hypotheses, which are limited explanations of more narrow sets of phenomena. Here is an example that should help to illustrate the difference between each term and their relationships to one another: a hypothesis about graviton particles might serve a general theory of gravitation proposed to explain the inverse square law of gravity.​

That's the part that was relevant, that more specifically a hypothesis is a limited explanation of more narrow sets of phenomena.
 
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Phoneman-777

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Life is Designed to Prevent Evolution – CEH

In brief, the article states that DNA is constantly being repaired. So the mutations that evolution require are rare. Less than 1 in 1000 survive the repair process. Not only that, the mutation has to be beneficial, far from a given. Then there have to be immeasurable numbers of beneficial mutations to produce a novel creature. The only recourse to evolutionists is to claim that evolution happens because it happens. Cue outrage, but no plausible explanation.
Just watched Dr. Hovind take on the three atheists. Wow, it was like lambs to the slaughter. How can anyone believe this nonsensical pseudo-science? Seems to me Theistic Evolutionists are liberal minded, nominal Christians who want to follow God but also want to be "cool" in the sight of non believers...or at least escape the incessant ridicule heaped upon young Earth Creationists.

I say we have nothing for which to be ashamed. Dr. Carson firmly believes in young Earth Creationism and he's among the most brilliant minds in history. Yet, the Fake News still found a way to ridicule his beliefs despite the fact that these ignorant shills aren't worthy to occupy even the same universe with him. If Christians can't endure a few pinprick persecutions now, what are they going to do when the fiery furnace is heated up and the lion's den reopens for business?

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you."
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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Seems to me Theistic Evolutionists are liberal minded, nominal Christians who want to follow God but also want to be "cool" in the sight of non believers...or at least escape the incessant ridicule heaped upon young Earth Creationists.

Not me, at least. I hold to a fundamentalist and conservative evangelical Christianity which takes the Bible seriously as the infallible word of God and couldn't care less about the delusional opinions of unbelievers.
 
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Phoneman-777

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Not me, at least. I hold to a fundamentalist and conservative evangelical Christianity which takes the Bible seriously as the infallible word of God and couldn't care less about the delusional opinions of unbelievers.
So do I, which is why I preach God created the Earth in six literal, 24 hour, singular planetary rotation days and rested on the seventh literal, 24 hour, singular planetary rotation day, and commanded that the seventh day be observed as a memorial to that Creation, which is why I observe it as a memorial to the same, but also as a memorial to Christ's power to re-create a new heart in those who confess and forsake their sins and follow Him.
 
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Phoneman-777

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Man evolved from archaic sapiens.
And speciation is observed in nature regularly. There isn't anything magical about it.
Man devolved from Adam - he never evolved from some magical primordial soup devoid of life.

The Bible says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but Isn't it strange how the further we get from God, the more "wise" man thinks he's getting?
 
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Phoneman-777

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I believe humans and monkeys descend from a common ancestor, one that you would no doubt call a monkey. I believe that based on an enormous amount of evidence. Now, again, please tell me how I have been indoctrinated. And I do mean how. What form did this indoctrination take?
You do realize that the greatest minds of evolution have openly admitted that your supposed "Tree of Life" scenario is "based on inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils", right?

Others claim what we see is more like an "evolutionary lawn, not a tree, as proved by what is being dug out from the Pre-Cambrian layer.

"Inference" - that which comes from the mind alone - is no evidence at all.
 
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Job 33:6

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Man devolved from Adam - he never evolved from some magical primordial soup devoid of life.

The Bible says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but Isn't it strange how the further we get from God, the more "wise" man thinks he's getting?

No. Man evolved from primordial or archaic sapiens.

The Bible describes ancient near east cosmology and is not a science textbook.

Below the firmament, who's grounding I have made firm, a house I shall build, let it be the abode of my pleasure. Within it I shall establish It's holy place, I shall appoint my holy chambers, I shall establish my kingship.

Your chamber shall be our stopping place, we shall find rest therein

Let's look at some more verses on the raqia:
And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Genesis 1:6

God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
Genesis 1:7‭-‬8

And God said, “Let there be lights in the dome of the sky to separate the day from the night; and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years,
Genesis 1:14

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened.
Genesis 7:11

the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,
Genesis 8:2

And God said, “Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the dome of the sky.”
Genesis 1:20

And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, the top of it reaching to heaven; and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. And the Lord stood beside him [or stood above it] and said, “I am the Lord, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your offspring;
Genesis 28:12‭-‬13

and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exodus 24:10

Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?
Job 37:18

Hast thou with him spread out the sky, Which is strong, and as a molten looking glass?
Job 37:18

can you join him in spreading out the skies, hard as a mirror of cast bronze?
Job 37:18

Yet in all the world their line goes out, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has pitched a tent for the sun,
Psalms 19:4

Praise him, you highest heavens, and you waters above the heavens!
Psalms 148:4

Praise Yah. Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty firmament.
Psalms 150:1

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to live in;
Isaiah 40:22

Over the heads of the angels there was something like a dome, shining like crystal, spread out above their heads.
Ezekiel 1:22

And above the dome over their heads there was something like a throne, in appearance like sapphire stone; and seated above the likeness of a throne was something that seemed like a human form.
Ezekiel 1:26

And I looked, and look! On the expanse that was above the head of the cherubim something like a stone of sapphire, and like the appearance of the shape of a throne it appeared above them.
Ezekiel 10:1

He made firm the skies above, When the springs of the deep became fixed, When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth;
Proverbs 8:27‭-‬29

The sky vanished like a scroll rolling itself up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Revelation 6:14

Screenshot_20220925-222956~2.png
 
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sfs

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You do realize that the greatest minds of evolution have openly admitted that your supposed "Tree of Life" scenario is "based on inference, however reasonable, not the evidence of the fossils", right?
?? That's like telling me that a box isn't big, it's red. Every conclusion that's based on evidence is also based on inference. That's how we draw conclusions from evidence. (And you might note that the best evidence for common descent comes from genetics, not fossils.)
Others claim what we see is more like an "evolutionary lawn, not a tree, as proved by what is being dug out from the Pre-Cambrian layer.
I'm not sure what concept in evolutionary biology you're talking about here but whatever it is, it's clear you've misunderstood it.
"Inference" - that which comes from the mind alone - is no evidence at all.
You need to work on your understanding of English vocabulary. The first definition that comes up when googling for 'inference:
in·fer·ence
/ˈinf(ə)rəns/
noun
a conclusion reached on the basis of evidence and reasoning.
 
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