Predestination, Free Will, and a 'Heavenly Language'.

[Halbhh]

I have not denied that we do actually, really, consequentially, choose. I have promoted the idea. But the fact that we choose from options doesn't mean that all the options actually are available. To put it another way, IF one chooses option A, it is pretty obvious that option B will not happen. You may interject, "But IF one had chosen B, it would have happened!" So I say, "Of course! And A would not have happened."

You may even go so far as to allow God's detailed predestination, but suppose that WE, and all choosers, are the ones who change what would have happened, by both obedience and disobedience, but that is looking at it backwards. "Free will" of sentient effects (such as humans) cannot logically be truly the cause of previous causes. There are no little first causes running about.

2 big topics below, so even if the first is familiar, don't miss the 2nd entirely different topic.

It occurred to me finally that we might be thinking of different meanings when we read 'predestined'.

It will often be that people will (naturally and reasonably) use kind of modern sense of the word "predestined", where it then means something like: Predetermined in the sense of a clockwork Universe: physics determinism.

Determinism: The idea that the future will play out in a set certain way entirely determined by how things are right now. That all events are casually tied together, not just partially (to a degree but less than full), but fully and exhaustively. The "Clockwork Universe".

In other words, the future entirely set, already, in every way.

In other words, even though we don't know what will happen, something definitely is already going to happen in just a certain way that is already set. Determined. Or even 'predestined' in that particular way of using the word.

I think that over the recent centuries science has influenced philosophy and all modern thought to bring in that sense of meaning onto the word 'predestined'.

But I'm not applying that modern sense of determinism onto the word 'predestined', see. Instead, I think of 'predestined' in this way:

1 Peter 1:20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.

Predestined = Planned ahead of time.

God planned ahead of time for how fallen humanity would gain salvation.

But, that's not implying our individual choices being already set ahead of time!

Instead, I think that our future choices not only are truly free in a real way, but further: that they do not even exist yet in any sense, not even a predictive sense.

Nevertheless, God can definitely see what direction a person is currently heading and where that path leads to, if the person doesn't change course.

But, wonderfully, He gave us a real ability to change course, and rescues us when we do -- as illustrated wonderfully by the parable of the prodigal son.

And, He even steps in to help.

So, as I think of it, for free will to exist, for most of scripture to make sense as consequential, then the future is not already determined, except solely that God has chosen to accomplish certain things, and will "work" to bring them about.

When I say "work" I'm quoting, so let me quote the verse, and also a chapter.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working."

They are literally working.

Here's a invaluable chapter to help show how this all fits together: God will "fulfill", "bring about", what He plans. He will "summon" an agent, and more...

Isaiah 46 NIV (starting at verse 8 is the key section, but the full chapter is nice because of verses like verse 4 -- Isaiah 46:4 Even to your old age, I will be the same, and I will bear you up when you turn gray. I have made you, and I will carry you; I will sustain you and deliver you.)

 

[Mark Quayle]

2 big topics below, so even if the first is familiar, don't miss the 2nd entirely different topic.

It occurred to me finally that we might be thinking of different meanings when we read 'predestined'.

It will often be that people will (naturally and reasonably) use kind of modern sense of the word "predestined", where it then means something like: Predetermined in the sense of a clockwork Universe: physics determinism.

Determinism: The idea that the future will play out in a set certain way entirely determined by how things are right now. That all events are casually tied together, not just partially (to a degree but less than full), but fully and exhaustively. The "Clockwork Universe".

In other words, the future entirely set, already, in every way.

In other words, even though we don't know what will happen, something definitely is already going to happen in just a certain way that is already set. Determined. Or even 'predestined' in that particular way of using the word.

I think that over the recent centuries science has influenced philosophy and all modern thought to bring in that sense of meaning onto the word 'predestined'.

But I'm not applying that modern sense of determinism onto the word 'predestined', see. Instead, I think of 'predestined' in this way:

1 Peter 1:20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.

Predestined = Planned ahead of time.

God planned ahead of time for how fallen humanity would gain salvation.

But, that's not implying our individual choices being already set ahead of time!

Instead, I think that our future choices not only are truly free in a real way, but further: that they do not even exist yet in any sense, not even a predictive sense.

Nevertheless, God can definitely see what direction a person is currently heading and where that path leads to, if the person doesn't change course.

But, wonderfully, He gave us a real ability to change course, and rescues us when we do -- as illustrated wonderfully by the parable of the prodigal son.

And, He even steps in to help.

So, as I think of it, for free will to exist, for most of scripture to make sense as consequential, then the future is not already determined, except solely that God has chosen to accomplish certain things, and will "work" to bring them about.

When I say "work" I'm quoting, so let me quote the verse, and also a chapter.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, "To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working."

They are literally working.

Here's a invaluable chapter to help show how this all fits together: God will "fulfill", "bring about", what He plans. He will "summon" an agent, and more...

Isaiah 46 NIV (starting at verse 8 is the key section, but the full chapter is nice because of verses like verse 4 -- Isaiah 46:4 Even to your old age, I will be the same, and I will bear you up when you turn gray. I have made you, and I will carry you; I will sustain you and deliver you.)

Yet God is First Cause, or he is not God. Thus, logically (and scripturally) he indeed does cause every detail. You limit him to good will, good intentions, good heartedness, completely missing that he is severe fact. You anthropomorphize him to fit your wishes. This is a weakening of the Gospel.

You mention that they are working, and rightly so, because they are. But they are not bound by time as we are. If God was to withdraw his hand, existence of all creation would cease to be. And so it continues. He works. Likewise, as with those who think miracle is intervention within time, he spoke those miracles, and all other fact, into being, at the beginning. To timeless God, it is one and the same, logically, though I have no doubt there is much more to it than that. Consider the philosophical principle of the Simplicity of God.

 

[disciple Clint]

How do they happen, then? Specifically, please... Show the chain of cause-and-effect, even if the only cause is mere chance, or superior intellect or something.

they happen as a result of the free will decisions of man in a fallen world, some of those decisions are motivated to benefit others and some to simply benefit the self. My thinking on this is influenced by the study of military history, often times a battle was all but won, the strategy had been perfectly executed and then something unexpected turned events. Did God cause that unexpected event in order to accomplish His goals, I think He did but that is just my opinion.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Wonderful, this fourth dimension. Someday, I'll have to read up on it.

You say, "In creating free will, God did not plan out their courses." You know this how? Can you show me Scripture concerning this?

God presents us weak-minded humans with words we can deal with, and does so without lying, but the resulting anthropomorphisms we get out of the words are not necessarily what he means by them.

The fourth dimension is linear time. God exists above time, in the ever present, in many dimensions. And He fills the universe with His presence.

God didn't send every free will on it's course, but obedient ones meet and evangelize and combat sinners and dark angels. The dark angels will never repent and fill God's plans.

The Bible says Lucifer was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him. He went off course from God's plan, but God knew he would and so there the archangel Michael and many other things, including the work of the cross and resurrection.

God doesn't want the death of a sinner. He died for every soul.

God makes use of angels of death, but they are rebels from God's plans. God knew everything they'd think and do, in meeting young souls and obedient angels that fill God's plans...

 

[Mark Quayle]

I would suggest that God allows things to happen that He has not specifically planed to happen, God is no doubt in control and sovereign but He can accomplish His goals without micromanaging. Which is to say that man can exercise free will and God can still control the outcome of all events.

Mark Quayle said: ↑
How do they happen, then? Specifically, please... Show the chain of cause-and-effect, even if the only cause is mere chance, or superior intellect or something.

they happen as a result of the free will decisions of man in a fallen world, some of those decisions are motivated to benefit others and some to simply benefit the self. My thinking on this is influenced by the study of military history, often times a battle was all but won, the strategy had been perfectly executed and then something unexpected turned events. Did God cause that unexpected event in order to accomplish His goals, I think He did but that is just my opinion.

Here you simply re-iterate what you already said, unless with your last sentence you admit that what is unexpected to us is not unexpected to God —and, in fact, planned all along, and caused by God, either through miracle or simple long-chain causation.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The fourth dimension is linear time. God exists above time, in the ever present, in many dimensions. And He fills the universe with His presence.

God didn't send every free will on it's course, but obedient ones meet and evangelize and combat sinners and dark angels. The dark angels will never repent and fill God's plans.

The Bible says Lucifer was perfect until the day iniquity was found in him. He went off course from God's plan, but God knew he would and so there the archangel Michael and many other things, including the work of the cross and resurrection.

God doesn't want the death of a sinner. He died for every soul.

God makes use of angels of death, but they are rebels from God's plans. God knew everything they'd think and do, in meeting young souls and obedient angels that fill God's plans...

If Lucifer went off-course, and God knew he would, yet he created him anyway, Lucifer going off-course was God's plan. You insist on many different logical contradictions, at the cost of Scripture, in favor of your extraneous narrative!

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

If Lucifer went off-course, and God knew he would, yet he created him anyway, Lucifer going off-course was God's plan. You insist on many different logical contradictions, at the cost of Scripture, in favor of your extraneous narrative!

God's plan but not His intention.

 

[Halbhh]

You limit him to good will, good intentions, good heartedness, completely missing that he is severe fact. You anthropomorphize him to fit your wishes. This is a weakening of the Gospel.

Tell you what, just delete these false accusations, and then the remaining things you said would at least be reasonable speculative ideas (which many have). (but you will need to on some level take back such the serious false accusations I quoted just above from your post, because false accusations are against one of the 10 commandments)

I've already said, and meant it, that God plans all that matters, and will accomplish what He plans.

That's a 'severe' fact, if you like.

Maybe you just didn't read that post. I understand -- it's long. But...tell you what. Read it fully.

 

[Halbhh]

Yet God is First Cause, or he is not God.

That's right.

(but still I'd prefer you more fully/carefully read my post (without assumptions or guesses about what I think etc.) earlier before responding)

1 I lift up my eyes to the mountains—
where does my help come from?


2 My help comes from the Lord,
the Maker of heaven and earth.

3 He will not let your foot slip—
he who watches over you will not slumber;
4 indeed, he who watches over Israel
will neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord watches over you—
the Lord is your shade at your right hand;
6 the sun will not harm you by day,
nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord will keep you from all harm—
he will watch over your life;
8 the Lord will watch over your coming and going
both now and forevermore.
Psalm 121 NIV

 

[Mark Quayle]

God's plan but not His intention.

Did God intend for Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery?

 

[Mark Quayle]

That's right.

(but still I'd prefer you more fully/carefully read my post (without assumptions or guesses about what I think etc.) earlier before responding)

1 I lift up my eyes to the mountains—
where does my help come from?


2 My help comes from the Lord,
the Maker of heaven and earth.

3 He will not let your foot slip—
he who watches over you will not slumber;
4 indeed, he who watches over Israel
will neither slumber nor sleep.

5 The Lord watches over you—
the Lord is your shade at your right hand;
6 the sun will not harm you by day,
nor the moon by night.

7 The Lord will keep you from all harm—
he will watch over your life;
8 the Lord will watch over your coming and going
both now and forevermore.
Psalm 121 NIV

A beautiful Psalm. Where does it deny my point and promote yours?

 

[Halbhh]

A beautiful Psalm. Where does it deny my point and promote yours?

This is not an argument. Not if we are obeying God, because for believers we are under this instruction: Romans 14 NIV

(But to answer your question of how this is part of what I was saying above, just read what I was saying above more carefully/fully to see it easily == you should realize I'm saying what you already know is true!)

So, to obey Romans chapter 14, I understand we are to only discuss these types of topics (how to interpret Genesis chapter 1, etc.) with believers in a non contentious way.

If someone becomes too heated or contentious, perhaps because their faith and/or understanding is "weak" (as in 1rst Corinthians chapter 8), then I am compelled by God's instruction to try not to upset them. For example, if they cannot hear God is able to and did create physics (which I think it would be very rare for a believer to feel upset about), then I would have to refrain from pointing out that God created physics. The same for astronomical objects like neutron stars.

If a believer was truly knocked over in faith to hear about neutron stars, then I would be required not to talk about those with that person.

 

[childeye 2]

Many times, in many threads concerning, in particular, the question of whether God deciding all things makes him the one to blame for sin, and turns erstwhile free-willing agents into robots programmed to 'choose' what they do, and makes their choices mere illusion. In these threads, I have tried many times to explain what I do not myself understand in full (and still I happily admit that I do not) that God's economy is not ours, and that he is as much beyond us as the heavens are beyond the earth. I have tried to point out what a striking difference it is, and how our thinking is always based on false premises. There are doubtless better arguments for the purpose of showing the worthiness of the doctrine of predestination, but for the most part they seem ineffective in convincing anyone who doesn't want to see it.

Today, it occurs to me, that the following notion (which may well be misleading, so I leave it as speculation only, though I think it could be well supported by scripture), could be a useful way to get my point across. I point it out because I hope some will see that our anthropomorphic logic concerning "the way of things" concerning the work and person of God, simply does not apply to God in everything.

Some time back some of us participated in a thread where the difference between a possible Heavenly Language and any other language(s) was discussed. Today I was thinking about the way that God speaking caused things to happen:

It may well be, that what God speaks, IS the thing that came to pass.

IF the language of God is that different from human language, where our words are like containers in which to carry mere concepts poorly understood, then where is the consideration that his planning something to happen (which therefore will certainly happen), with every smallest detail planned, takes away actual choice? Or to look at it from the other direction, how do the many actions and reactions, choices and consequences, causes and effects that we commonly see and consider, all things that we might even consider as naturalism, were we atheists —how do these things compare with how he does things?

God, from a philosophical point of view, does no more and no less plan every detail, than that he spoke every fact, past, present and future, into existence. He need not plan, and then when his plan seems good, execute the plan. He need only speak. Other posters commenting here have said that to God, it is all the present. I believe he spoke his dwelling place into being, and the redeemed, the elect, are that place. He sees it as already done. He spoke it, and it is fact. How can anyone rate, then, whether every detail is also predestined to happen? The question does not show up on the scale of God's economy. That fact that we must line up cause and effect in a way that makes sense to us, is no measure of the validity of our thinking.

God says I am that I am, as if to say that we as flesh beings in a temporal existence are incapable of forming an image of Him that will not fall short. And that when we reason upon a corrupt image of God, we end up corrupting ourselves. Once corrupted, we would need a True Image to believe in and heal us.

I think you're touching on a complicated subject matter and it can easily be lost in semantics. It's difficult to discuss Eternal things using temporal terms. I see the issue fundamentally as a matter of faith. I see God's faith and our faith as coming from two opposing points of view when pictured in the dichotomy of Creator/creature. And yet both points of view are pointed at God's Word (His means of creating).

So, I also agree with what you've said, that the issue of what some call "free will" has much to do with determining who is responsible for sin. But I also believe that through this type of free will theology "blame" is being misappropriated, and that the attempt to appoint blame is futile to begin with. I believe that this occasion to find blame is where the accuser/Satan sows enmity between God and mankind, and also sows distrust between one another. For example, grace and cynicism are opposites in their prejudice, and it seems that wickedness is where people want to believe bad about others as if doing so lifts up one's own self. This is a vanity that comes from a false image of god.

In short, there has been little consideration given, that in the circumstance of creating a fellow person, there would be what could legitimately be called unfairness in their differing stations, and yet no one is to blame because it's circumstantial.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[Mark Quayle]

This is not an argument. Not if we are obeying God, because for believers we are under this instruction: Romans 14 NIV

(But to answer your question of how this is part of what I was saying above, just read what I was saying above more carefully/fully to see it easily == you should realize I'm saying what you already know is true!)

So, to obey Romans chapter 14, I understand we are to only discuss these types of topics (how to interpret Genesis chapter 1, etc.) with believers in a non contentious way.

If someone becomes too heated or contentious, perhaps because their faith and/or understanding is "weak" (as in 1rst Corinthians chapter 8), then I am compelled by God's instruction to try not to upset them. For example, if they cannot hear God is able to and did create physics (which I think it would be very rare for a believer to feel upset about), then I would have to refrain from pointing out that God created physics. The same for astronomical objects like neutron stars.

If a believer was truly knocked over in faith to hear about neutron stars, then I would be required not to talk about those with that person.

Unless their faith is false, based on their own concepts and not generated by the Spirit of God within, and they are not regenerated. Or, if they are in gross error, teaching what the Apostles so outspokenly and virulently condemned.

 

[Clare73]

Very important fact!
Thanks for sharing.

He doesn't have to when he has sovereign power over all dispositions; i.e., what one prefers.

One freely chooses what one prefers. . .him.

 

[Halbhh]

Unless their faith is false, based on their own concepts and not generated by the Spirit of God within, and they are not regenerated. Or, if they are in gross error, teaching what the Apostles so outspokenly and virulently condemned.

In addition to those that don't actually believe, we hear in the New Testament that some believers are 'weak' in their faith or understanding in some way. And this matters urgently (crucially) for us in how we are to interact with them:
1 Corinthians 8 NIV

This is such a key chapter, and while Romans 14 NIV says the same generally thing broadly, it helps a lot to get this message as it's written in Corinthians, because of some pieces there.

These instructions aren't just for some folks back in the 1rst century, but instead they are also for us today.

Along with Romans chapter 14 I strongly recommend the background example in Corinthians (above) to us that wish to discuss on the internet because Paul so clearly says why it matters so very much.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Did God intend for Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery?

No, they disobeyed, but God knew they would do so, and used what He didn't choose. By "chance" Joseph went towards Egypt. And Joseph followed the Spirit, and fulfilled his destiny. This also led to the recovery of his brothers.

 

[disciple Clint]

Mark Quayle said: ↑
How do they happen, then? Specifically, please... Show the chain of cause-and-effect, even if the only cause is mere chance, or superior intellect or something.



Here you simply re-iterate what you already said, unless with your last sentence you admit that what is unexpected to us is not unexpected to God —and, in fact, planned all along, and caused by God, either through miracle or simple long-chain causation.

Ok let me try to be more clear, God does not care if I brush my teeth everyday, He is not causing me to do that. He would very much care if I was working on a cure for cancer and He wanted me to be successful because of the good it would do in the world, under those circumstances He might very well cause me to do some things that I would not have thought about doing myself. Simply God is involved in the BIG picture.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Planning events in our lives need not remove free will. If it is impossible for God to sin, or tempt man to sin, he would never plan adultery, but he could know it "could happen", and plan outcomes based upon it. I have done up a rough diagram to show how this planning works. At any point in time God can know all future outcomes, and even state facts that "will definitely occur" - he can prophesy. He can design into our plans set, definite, events. All the following events can be said to be predestined, yet retain free will. We are predestined for salvation, but our choices will determine if that becomes our outcome.

He can essentially say that "He knew me before I was formed in the womb", for He did pre-plan me. Planning actually works hand in hand with a choice-based salvation. It allows for common types of choices.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

God can plan things in such a way that we never "exceed the limits". But we still have the choice of accepting Christ or hiding His knowledge away resulting in damnation.

Tit 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

The person chooses damnation, by rejecting Christ's evidence. They are self-condemned.

 

[Mark Quayle]

No, they disobeyed, but God knew they would do so, and used what He didn't choose. By "chance" Joseph went towards Egypt. And Joseph followed the Spirit, and fulfilled his destiny. This also led to the recovery of his brothers.

So, Genesis 50:20 doesn't mean, "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good..."?

Btw, why did you put "chance" in quotes. Do you mean by chance, or what? How did Joseph go towards Egypt? How does anything happen?