ARE NON BELIEVERS LOWER IN MORAL CHARACTER THAN CHRISTIANS? Peanut Gallery.

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Is there a difference in believing in religion and believing that there is a God? Are they the same thing? If they are not the same thing, then what is a NONBELIEVER? Someone that doesn't believe in religion or someone that doesn't believe in God? I don't believe in religion because of its negative energy that it creates. And God won't be associated with this negative energy. God tells you not to judge in the bible. But here you are judging! How far must we all go to battle religions against GOD's will. I respect everyone's view of how a soul should be. But religion doesn't control my soul. God guides our souls to see if our souls are good and at peace. Is your soul at peace and are you able to accept people's differences no matter what their adversity?

Yes.. there is a big difference but its common for people to assume the two (practicing religion and having a personal relationship with God thru Christ) are one of the same ; in fact, people will actually use the term 'religion' as an excuse to stay far from God as some professed atheists do that I know in my locale . They put down religion so as to keep at arms length from God --- its all quite self deceiving but whatever it takes to keep God from having his rightful authority in Ones life .

Secondly, Christ never came to start 'a religion' or even an institution...rather., he came to show that he was and IS the Creator of the Universe and that his death on the cross was sufficient to save all from their sins if they could just simply believe that it was enough and to surrender ones life to him in all authority ; so for those who wont, it becomes a pride issue and not a head issue since there is adequate evidence to prove Christ is real. Only people don't wish to go looking at it even when its presented to them on a platter.

Thirdly...what is an UNbeliever ? Its anyone who doesn't want to believe in God the Creator of the heavens and earth and who instead wants to make SELF their god in life. Again, its not a head issue but a will issue.

I don't believe in 'religion ' either...just like you. I think the practice of religion is an affront to God because it involves so much legalism and fluff invented by human beings or an institution...whereas its a deep meaningful personal relationship with The Creator that is what this life is all about. And if the person is willing to go deep with God, they soon find out that he reveals more of himself on an emotional and spiritual level for the person to even have greater rational faith in him. But we must take the first step as God wont thrust himself on you so it becomes an affront to your Will. If you truyly want to examine God, then be humble and available like a child...and his promise is that he will let you see the reality of his existence even though you cant touch him physically ; he will show you the personal and intelligent effects of him creating our Universe and Earth if we are open to it.

The greatest life to be lived is one that seeks the Creator because as so many millions of people have found out over the centuries... THAT is where true fulfillment and purpose and meaning come into play for the Person. Its knowing him that gives so much joy and meaning to this life..and...its something that doesn't stop upon physical expiration to this life. What could be better than that ? Nothing...nothing indeed.

Give God a chance with your life and watch the transformation and meaning come to your life. And best of all...its real .

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

ARE NON BELIEVERS LOWER IN MORAL CHARACTER THAN CHRISTIANS?

TCMD starts with a long boring No True Scotsman.

REAL CHRISTIANS have Fruits, including "greater expressions" of moral behavior.
Christians without fruits are pseudo Christians.

Survey #1: Theists rate certain moral qualities "very important" at higher rates than atheists.

As the press release itself notes, "That's not to say that God-believers always translate their values into action."

The study tells us nothing about actual behavior.

Survey #2: Evangelical Christians say they do 'bad things' less frequently than atheists.

The study tells us nothing about actual behavior..........

Wow. TheycallmeDavid starts right out of the gate with a no-true-Scotsman fallacy. Classy. Then he decides, for some reason, to define Christians right out of any possible studies he's going to cite....... Any study he presents then is invalid.
Speaking of invalid studies....

The first one he cites doesn't even have anything to do with the topic. The topic is ARE christians more moral than non christians....not do christians THINK they're more moral than non christians.

I'd be really surprised if BSHMT doesn't slam dunk this.

LLoJ once again heads for Wiki!

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[For the practice of wearing a kilt without undergarments, see True Scotsman.]




No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing").[2]
It can also be used to create unnecessary requirements.

The use of the term was advanced by British philosopher Antony Flew:

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton [(England)] Sex Maniac Strikes Again". Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing". The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again; and, this time, finds an article about an Aberdeen [(Scotland)] man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing
​

.

 

[PastorTeacher]

This debate will never be resolved as it is a comparison of two different "systems" of moral ethics. As a Christian, my morality is based on the Word of God, yet even then it would not be "moral ethics" but divine mandates. Is an atheist more moral than a Christian? Depends on your system. From a divine perspective, the answer would be no. If you ask if Christians are more moral than atheist, using a worldly moral system, and granted the Christian is spiritual, than the answer again would be no. The moral argument is simply an argument of "good vs. evil". What society deems as good, may not be what the Bible considers good. Same with evil. Many Christians-and I am one of them-believes that anything apart from God should be rendered as "not good" or "evil". After all, the Christian definition of evil should be anything that is without or apart from God. So, while feeding the homeless may be considered moral from both an atheist and Christian perspective, is it really moral? Again, you may get the same answer which would be yes. However, this again depends on your "system". However, if a Christian acts in a way as to help the poor-in this scenario, feeding the homeless-to bring the glory onto themselves, or to make themselves feel good, then it must not be considered "good" as it was not done with the proper motives, which is to glorify God, or to be obedient to His divine mandates. So, are Christians more moral than atheist or vise versa? It all depends on the actions and motives of the Christian. Now, is the divine mandates a Christian must follow more moral or superior to the moral system of an atheist? From a Christian perspective the answer would be absolutely.

 

[MissRowy]

Are non-believers lower in moral character than Christians?
From all my experiences, yes, because:

• They all use foul language sometimes
• Some of them seduce Christians in relationships and marriages, convincing the Christians that having a faith in common doesn't matter - only moral and other things matter
• Many of them mock the Bible and some other important Christian works such as Ptolemy's letter to Flora, Teachings of Silvanus, Gospel of Truth
• Many of them view being Christian as just a hobby or special interest (although some Christians actually are like that)

And Christians don't use foul language? Also can I ask what do you classify as foul? I can understand expletives are foul but do you also count cursing Gods name as foul?

 

[Unix]

I haven't met Christians that use foul language. All foul language is foul language:

And Christians don't use foul language? Also can I ask what do you classify as foul? I can understand expletives are foul but do you also count cursing Gods name as foul?

 

[stevevw]

The problem with atheism is not that atheists cannot arrive moral conclusions, as after all, God had reasons for the laws He made, but the problem is that atheism lacks a commonly held transcendent standard which basically defines morality and sin.

Thus the atheist himself becomes the standard, with no objective standard that he must be judged by.

What you say is true. Atheists can have a range of morals and can even be more moral than someone who professes to be religious. But as you said religion is not always the judge of what is moral. But because subjective views take the individuals view rather than the moral itself almost anything can be argued as moral in the eyes of the world view. A lot of the time its is disguised with another good intention or objection to make what is proposed as being not so bad. Like two wrongs make a right. Pots not so bad because alcohols kills way more people. So why cant we legalize pot. Or pornography isn't that bad and in some ways its an expression of your sexuality. As someone once said its better to disguise an untruth with a grain of truth as then its not so obvious.

 

[stevevw]

PeaceByJesus

Thus labels can be misleading, and what really should be debated here is how much strong Christian faith versus committed atheism translates into morality, which itself needs to be defined

Maybe I see things to simple. But when you say strong Christian faith I take it as committed Christian and not strong in the arms. I dont know what you mean by committed atheist though. But I think you mean someone that professes that they dont believe there is a God.

Its hard to do those surveys as like some have said people can identify as a Christians by saying they were born a catholic. Many will fill this section out on a form and they havnt been near a church all their life except for when their parents may have baptized them. But they certainly dont like a Christian life that has accepted Christ. So I am not sure how you would correctly do those surveys and get the proper data.

But to me common sense tell you that if a person is a committed Christian then he is living as Christ said. Even if they are very religious they are attending church every week. Either way they are more or less living a daily life surrounded by religious teachings and people. So they are constantly subjected to all those good living principles. Hopefully most Christians are sincere and are doing the right thing. But even so just being around that all the time rubs off. If you hang with ducks you will start to walk like one as the saying goes.

But compared to secular society they dont put themselves into these positions. So common sense tells you that Christians especially but also regular religious people are being taught and even forced in some ways to live very moral lives. They are constantly told to help others, give or their time and money, dont sin or you will go to hell. Its like they are doing a course or at school for morals and living good. So because of this I have to say that people in these positions will live more moral lives. If they dont then they will be exposed or feel very uncomfortable. Secular society may have some examples like this but not as intense and consistent.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

And Christians don't use foul language? Also can I ask what do you classify as foul? I can understand expletives are foul but do you also count cursing Gods name as foul?

Many professed Christians use foul language fluently, but not all who profess Christ are truly Christians according to the biblical standards . So, a true genuine changed Christian doe not use foul language for that was part of their past worldly life. And when an 'Atheist' goes about showing the wrong which professed Christians have done whether in modern times or ancient times....all they've accomplished is to show what real Christianity IS NOT.

Foul talk can be classified as wrong, immoral, defamation, using offensive language that the majority would find offensive and unnecessary to express oneself with , etc.... Some common examples would be : The F word , S word , God.D., Jesus Christ as a figure of speech or to exhibit hostility , et al.... Some common behavior which comes from the Atheist Community almost exclusively is :

Using filthy language while in a restaurant with others nearby , finding spewtum on elevator walls or public restroom walls, bragging of sexual conquests to a friend in public, being highly insensitive in public by denouncing Christianity/God/Jesus/The Cross when CHristians are most likely around , defacing or robbery of Nativity Scenes on private property , same for Churches or Church Cemetaries, any number of acts of vandalism, casual hookup sex often leading to pregnancy often leading to murder , and many other forms of moral relativism which is the basis of atheistic Secular Humanism .

 

[keith99]

While this was a very interesting debate, I think it only emphasizes the main point of difference between the two sides: the completely different view of what it means to be "moral".

While in David's post there were such points as "gambling", "drunkenness","looking at pornography" and "profanity in public", bhsmte repeatedly cited "nationalism", "gender equality", "torture" and "authoritarian[ism]"

I for one know which values I support.

I was thinking more of being concerned to not say the 7 magic bad words while happily telling evil lies about his neighbor.

Neither Christ nor the God of the OT were at all shy about using strong earthy language.

 

[4U2C]

I think the evidence is pretty clear on who has the wiser or higher morality, the Christian or the non Christian.
When I look at this, I judge it as a whole. The secular western world has basically followed the Greek way, over the last 500yrs. In that time humanity has progressed, even evolved if you like. However, the Christian church has opposed this at every turn, exposing the deep ingrained immorality established by the church.

The secular world brings us democracy (the ability to contribute to who we have as a leader.

It gives us freedom of speech, Freedom of ideas, Freedom from slavery, freedom of religion, rights for homosexuals, women's rights, children rights, Human rights, welfare, and in general, the freedom to be who you are or what you want to be. In general, the secular world works on the principal of empathy, something the church seem to lack...

The Christian church has opposed this every step of the way. The church eroded peoples freedom until it was in total control in Europe. The church had every opportunity to put their superior morals into action like any good government but instead they stripped way peoples freedom and tortured them and burned them alive for daring to believe something different to the church, making them experience the hellfire they refuse to believe in. That is the motivation behind the torturous Christian ways. There isn't another time in history where humanity became so torturous towards the populous. This was totally a Christian creation... Some might conclude that it was Christianity fully expressed because that is what they did with their power once they got it.

Unfortunately the church didn't build a paradise, instead they built a living hell for the world...

IMO, I don't think it is to hard to see who has the better morality. History is very clear on the evidence for his...

 

[4U2C]

It's beyond me why anyone would start a thread on a debate over who has the higher morality and then moderate that thread so every post is reviewed before being posted so that only the Christian side of the debate gets supported while any good opposing argument can be stopped before it even gets posted.

I think this kind of dishonest manipulation exposes who has the higher morality straight off the bat...Good way to hide the truth I suppose?

I doubt this will be posted like my last attempt at sharing my opinion on this subject...Shame on anyone who does this...

 

[IamNazarene]

No, we are all equal in Sin.
Believes are forgiven on their Sin and like unbelievers we still commit so how are we better?

Because we try not to be wicked?

No, the fact is Christians have a high standard they can not meet.
We think we can but we fail and then we need forgiveness.

There really is very little difference.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Forgive me, I lost track of this thread; all posts are now approved.

Mark
CF Admin

 

[hiphopopotomus]

Jesus said that a tree will be judged by its fruit.
How we live our lives is more important than what we believe.
Mathew 25.31.40.

 

[keith99]

Are non-believers lower in moral character than Christians?
From all my experiences, yes, because:

• They all use foul language sometimes
• Some of them seduce Christians in relationships and marriages, convincing the Christians that having a faith in common doesn't matter - only moral and other things matter
• Many of them mock the Bible and some other important Christian works such as Ptolemy's letter to Flora, Teachings of Silvanus, Gospel of Truth
• Many of them view being Christian as just a hobby or special interest (although some Christians actually are like that)

Wow,

So the things you can mark against non believers are foul language and not respecting your myths. Am I permitted to mark up the same against Christians for not respecting the Father Odin?

And in my experience 99% of Christians show less respect for scripture than I do as they twist the meaning to fir their biases. Disbelieving I have no such need and am more prone to read if for what it actually says.

Yes I swear, but compared to the vast majority of Christians I do not lie. I like others have learned that if a businessman says he is Christian he is not to be trusted.

And why is it that Christians are grossly overrepresented in the prison population?

 

[MishSill]

Are non-believers lower in moral character than Christians?

By whose standards?

If you are referring to God's standards then I would have to say yes... that is for a true follower of Christ.

God is holy and demands holiness of us. We become transformed into that holiness by our faith in Him and by His resurrective power in peeling off our graves clothes that would ultimately lead to an eternal separation from Him.

Therefore, by God's standard, the believer would have to be in a higher moral standing.

God himself said that in the last days, he would send a strong delusion so that non-believers would believe the lie, which is why they are not able to discern or understand God's standards of morals.

 

[Unix]

Would I think "All Christians" know enough about the Bible? No I certainly don't think so. Nor do I think Atheists know enough about the Bible. Only a fraction are knowledgeable. I don't call all "Christians" Christians. Many who don't use foul language are Christians:

And in my experience 99% of Christians show less respect for scripture than I do as they twist the meaning to fir their biases. Disbelieving I have no such need and am more prone to read if for what it actually says.

 

[bhsmte]

Would I think "All Christians" know enough about the Bible? No I certainly don't think so. Nor do I think Atheists know enough about the Bible. Only a fraction are knowledgeable. I don't call all "Christians" Christians. Many who don't use foul language are Christians:

You would be mistaken. Most atheists in the United States were once Christian and many have studied the bible quite extensively including myself.

In fact, the Pew research company did an analysis a few years back and measured the religious knowledge of; certain Christians, atheists, agnostics and those of other religions. The atheists scored the highest, with Muslims close behind and Christians brought up the rear.

 

[Unix]

I didn't say they don't know anything, I said they don't know enough:

You would be mistaken. Most atheists in the United States were once Christian and many have studied the bible quite extensively including myself.
In fact, the Pew research company did an analysis a few years back and measured the religious knowledge of; certain Christians, atheists, agnostics and those of other religions. The atheists scored the highest, with Muslims close behind and Christians brought up the rear.

 

[bhsmte]

I didn't say they don't know anything, I said they don't know enough:

According to Pew's research, Christians know even less.