GabrielWithoutWings
Strolling through Naraka
- Jul 25, 2006
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What's up with your username? It kind of defeats the purpose of this thread.
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They accused him of heresy, and the accusation was done away with. He was not condemned at Chalcedon for heresy, but for alleged ecclesiastical issues.So you believe the Fathers of Chalcedon, who accused him of proposing this heresy - including Saint Flavianus, who was lynch-mobed because of that - were ignorant and didn't know what they were dealing with?
Or that major Church historians, like Meyendorff, Florovsky, Wace, Walker, Schaff or Runciman were wrong?
He provides his own opinion without proving it. Has he read Ephesus 449?Dioscorus only condemned Eutyches when, after refusing to attend Chalcedon to prove his Orthodoxy, he realized what he had done. Eutyches's condemnation was a desparate attempt to prove his Orthodoxy - which had a terrible side effect, by the way, because many monks were Eutychianists and severely draw their support because of that.
I like to call it that everyone is happy to seach for the truth, and keep the Orthodox faith in true ecumenism.The thing I find amusing is that whenever Roman Catholics use the same argument to justify the filioque - they say "we believe the same things you do, but we just phrase it differently", most Orthodox fret about it. Now, everyone is more than happy to ignore Church Councils and compromising the faith in the for a false ecumenism's sake.
How do you know that? Did you read this work? Was St. Cyril that ignorant?The sentence "one incarnate nature" used by St. Cyrill was an apollinarian forgery falsely aributed to St. Athanasius.
Let's see what St. Cyril thought of the phrase "one nature" versus "two natures":St. Cyrill knew this sentence had its problems.
Letter to Acacius[FONT="]But the brethren at Antioch, understanding in simple thoughts only those from which Christ is understood to be, have maintained a difference of natures, because, as I said, divinity and humanity are not the same in natural quality, but proclaimed one Son and Christ and Lord as being truly one; they say His person is one, and in no manner do they separate what has been united.[/FONT]
Letter to Succensus[FONT="]Accordingly they are speaking in vain who say that, if there should be one incarnate [/FONT]fusiV[FONT="] ‘of the Word’ in every way and in every manner it would follow that a mixture and a confusion occurred as if lessening and taking away the nature of man.[/FONT]
Even Rick by his own writing agrees that the phrase is an Alexandrian expression. It's a shame that he lies and gets caught lying by his own writing.That's why he composed the Tome of Agreement with John of Antioch. This document was a perfect synthesis of Alexandrian and Antiochian schools of theology.
These "fathers" included men who say that the letters of Ibas and Theodoret were Orthodox, and that Theodore of Mopsuestia was a doctor in the Church. I think if anything, if these men knew St. Cyril despised those three specifically (which probably they did), then there was really an agenda, not a fair trial. Leo simply did not know Cyril's writings to begin with. This was only lip service.Since "Leo agreed with Cyril", so said the Fathers of Chalcedon, yes, the oros of Chalcedon was a synthesis of the three theological schools of the time.
I'm glad this man is no authority in the Church. Even Orthodoxinfo.com doesn't make that stupid mistake that he is making. By that same mouth, he is condemning St. Cyril who saw "two natures" as a weak expression to his last breath. St. John of Damascus himself does not condemn the use of "one nature," but embraces it. He condemns, or assumes, the belief of a confused nature, who he thought St. Dioscorus believed. Today, with recent scholarship, Rick only tries to compromise what the EO fathers believed with the truths of Chalcedonian conflict. At least orthodoxinfo.com is more consistent than he is in sticking with what the EO fathers taught them.all of them claim(ed) Our Lord has "One Nature", and this is not Orthodox.
Yes, it is not monotheletism. What HH Pope Shenouda is affirming is the "who" that does miracles or accepts insults. This "who" is ONE. Thus, since the person is one, it is one action aka will. This was answered earlier in the thread.Now are you going to say that this is not monothelistims, but that we share the same faith (and just use different words?)
So, perhaps, you can see that the Formula of Reunion was misinterpreted in the Council of Chalcedon, even misinterpreted by Nestorius, who thought that St. Cyril "retracted from his own heresy".Well these sources certainly prove nothing. Let's have a look at them:
The fact Apollinarius may have used the phrase does not negate the idea that St. Athanasius used it. There is no logical connection between the proposition that Apollinarius used the phrase, and the proposition that St. Athanasius didn't. Therefore, there is no argument here.In other words, the Christ as Apollinaris conceived him is a single organism - "one composite nature" [3] - in which "the earthly body is knit together with the Godhead" ...
from Williston Walker et al, A history of the Christian Church, p. 164
Note [3] -> Apollinarius, Fragment 111, in Lietzman, H., Apollinaris von Laodicea und sine Schule (Tübingen, 1904).
In any event, the Chalcedonian emphasis and stress on the idea that Apollinarius used the phrase is meaningless in consideration of the following:
1) The term homoousion, before its Orthodox application at the Council of Nicaea had previously been used by condemned heretical groups (e.g. Gnostics) and figures. In fact it was conciliarly condemned at a local Synod at Antioch in A.D. 268 because of its being misused in a heretical context by Paul of Samosata. Regardless of all this, the homoousion expression now stands as a pillar of Orthodoxy regardless of its past misuse. Similarly, assuming the phrase to be of Apollinarian origin, we can confidently state that it was sanctified by the Holy Spirit's operation through St. Cyril and Ephesus 431.
2) Apollinarius's only heresies were his denial of Christ's human soul, and communicatio idiomatum; however, he did not teach that the humanity of Christ was somewhat divine as many claim. Thus, his heresies were not a result or the corollary of the mia physis forumula, but rather independent of it.
3) St. Cyril's employment of the mia physis Formula was not dependent upon the belief that it was used by St. Athanasius; St. Cyril employed it because he believed it to exemplify a proper Christological Confession of Faith. There were many instances in his writings where he went out of his way to defend the Mia Physis Formula; not once did he merely appeal to the notion that the phrase originated with St. Athanasius. Instead of resorting to an appeal to authority, he went on to prudently defend the expression on its own terms.
I think if one is going to argue that St. Cyril was ignorant of the sources he was using (as if we today know better), that there be some substantial evidence to support that argument. So far, I have not seen a shred of credible evidence to support the claim that St. Cyril was ingnorantly using an Apollinarian forgery; the fact Apollinarius used the phrase is of little relevance.The effect of this language [i.e. John 1:14 and Philippians 2:6-11] , Cyril thought, could be summed up nicely in the expression "one incarnate nature of the divine Logos" - a phrase ge found in a work attributed to Athanasius but which in fact (though he was not aware of it) had been written by Apollinaris.
Ha! That's nonsense. If St. Cyril thought there was something wrong with the Mia Physis formula, and if he truly sought to remedy his alleged error by allegedly proclaiming a belief in "two natures" in the Symbol of Reunion, then why would he insist on using the Mia Physis formula after the Symbol of Reunion, nay, till his very last breath (he in fact used it in the last work written before his death--"On the Unity of Christ")?Even though St. Cyril used this phrase, he knew that there was something wrong about it. That's why he clarified his position in the Formula of Reunion written in 433 to John of Antioch, where he mentions his belief in two natures.
The Symbol of Reunion was not a clarification of St. Cyril's Christology. It was not even written by St. Cyril in the first place. T. Thomas accounts for St. Severos of Antioch's explanation of the purpose and implications of the Symbol of Reunion:
Notice that the Symbol does not indicate that Christ exists in Two Natures; rather, in speaking of how theologians are to treat the words and deeds of Christ, it explains that those very words and deeds can be distinguished between two natures. It's very important that we understand the fundamental implication of the context in which the phrase "two natures" is being used; it is being used in regard to theological contemplative analysis; it is not being used with regard to the reality and actuality of Christ's Incarnate existence.The Formula of Reunion, contends Severus [24], had been drawn up against the background of a split in the Church, which itself was the result of an inability on the part of the Antiochene tradition to understand the faith in a proper way. Cyril agreed to it only after seeing that all basic principles of the faith had been preserved. In other words, the Formula of Reunion can be cited as authority only after taking into account the terms of agreement which went with it. It is in this context that one should look into the meaning of the statement in which the phrase occurs. This statement reads:
And with regard to the evangelistic and apostolic sayings concerning the Lord, know that theologians make some common, as relating to one Person—prosopon—and distinguish others, as relating to two natures, interpreting the God-befitting ones to the Godhead of Christ, and the lowly ones of His humanity. [25]
This statement affirms that theologians take some of the words and deeds of our Lord as referring to the one Person, and the others they divide between the two natures. The intention is not to divide the words and deeds ‘between the natures in such a way that some are ascribed to the divine nature alone, and some to the human nature exclusively; they are of the one incarnate nature of God the Word. We recognize the difference in the words and the deeds; some are God befitting, some are man befitting, and some befit Godhead and manhood together’ [26]. The fact about this statement is that it did not contradict the Cyrilline principle of seeing the difference between Godhead and manhood in the one Christ in contemplation. But the Council of Chalcedon, argues Severus, went beyond the Formula of Reunion in sanctioning the ‘two natures after the union’, which the fathers had excluded.
One example concerns a certain Coptic Monastic identified as Abba Andrew. Abba Andrew is recounted as having witnessed a vision in which a group of wealthy Bishops stirring a blazing furnace pick up a small child and throw him in the furnace. After three days, the furnace is opened and the child comes out unharmed. Recognising the child to be Christ, Abba Andrew questions Him regarding those who had thrown Him into the fire. The child Christ responds saying: "The Bishops have crucified me for a second time and decided to deprive me of my glory." Abba Andrew, noticing a humble old man in the distance, who throughout the entire incident refused to participate in the activities of the Bishops, inquires into his identity. The child Christ responds: "This is Dioscoros, the Patriarch of the Alexandrines, who alone did not associate with them in their malicious intent."
Hi, I'm new to this I havent had time yet to read all the postings or threads, but I will.
I want to state in the first place, I am a convert to E.O.
(20 years now). A few years ago I went for the first time to a Coptic Church in I think it was Denton Texas, (St. Mary's?) during Great Lent. Taking my shoes off during Church was a new experiance for me, but I under stood the sugnifigance of it (Moses & the burning bush, holy ground etc.) As the Liturgy progressed, I fell in love with this different side of Orthodoxy. Orential, how deep and wonderful it all was to me. After the Liturgy I felt truly cleansed from my sins. Years later I talked with a priest at St. Anthony's Coptic Monastery near Barstow and he confirmed to me what I felt.
I travel around a lot so I have been able to visit a lot of Coptic Churches.
As a Baptized Eastern Orthodox Christian, I want to take it upon myself to APOLOGIZE for the entire E.O.C for the UNCHRISTLIKE way the Oriental Church has been treated over the centuries.
It just makes me sick in my soul to know how you true brothers in the faith have been misrepresented. I have read Coptic writings by your beloved Pope (forgive me I don't know how to spell his name right.) And I know for a fact he is PURE ORTHODOX.
MIA physite! WOW that would be the answer. I'm not a theologian in any sence of the term but I have read a little of the Church Fathers, too bad I'm not able to read Greek. Any way I hope to bring to this thread a small contribution, mostly I will read and learn and try to keep my mouth shut and let all the rest of you teach this unworthy one. Obadiah R.
It seems that many so-called "Orthodox" do nothing but act like Pharisees to affirm their Antiochian terminology, without even realizing that they are Antiochians in terminology.
Says the same person who read Fr. Samuel's book? Chalcedon, whether you like it or not, was actually strongly Antiochian in terminology, more so than the Formulary. It never considered Alexandrian terminology until Constantinople 553. Not to mention the Papal legate's acceptance of the Three Chapters.If you were convinced and satisfied in believing that you are Orthodox, why start a thread like this? The Christology of Chalcedon is neither Antiochian nor Alexandrian, it is a reasonable compromise and faithful to the fathers. I have love for non-Chalcedonians, yet to me their Christology is a tertium quid that causes confusion.
If you were convinced and satisfied in believing that you are Orthodox, why start a thread like this? The Christology of Chalcedon is neither Antiochian nor Alexandrian, it is a reasonable compromise and faithful to the fathers. I have love for non-Chalcedonians, yet to me their Christology is a tertium quid that causes confusion.
PS Tertium quid? You gotta be kidding me. I thought people thought we didn't believe in the human nature, and now you're saying we're Nestorians? This is precisely the same irrational argument made against St. Severus, who was called BOTH a Eutychian and a Nestorian.
If Christ is of one incarnate nature, then He is neither truly human nor truly divine but a confusion of the two.
Amen. Amen. Amen.
I believe, I believe, I believe and confess to the last breath; that this is the Life-Giving Body that Your Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ took from our Lady, the Queen of us all, the holy Theotokos Saint Mary.
He made it one with His divinity without mingling, without confusion, and without alteration.
He witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate. He gave it up for us upon the holy wood of the cross, of His own will, for us all.
Truly, I believe that His divinity parted not from His humanity for a single moment nor a twinkling of an eye; given for us for salvation, remission of sins and eternal life to those who partake of Him.
I believe, I believe, I believe that this is so in truth.
Amen.
His Holiness Pope Shenouda III said:Union without Mingling, Confusion, Alteration, or Transmutation:
By "one nature," we mean a real union. This does not involve mingling as of wheat and barley, nor confusion as of wine and water or milk and tea. Moreover, no change occured as a result of chemical reaction. For example, carbon dioxide consists of carbon and oxygen, and the nature of both changes when combined; each loses its properties which distinguished it before the unity. In contrast, no change occurred in the Divine or Human nature as a result of their unity.
Furthermore, unity between the two natures occurred without transmutation.
Thus, neither did the Divine nature transmute into the human nature, nor did the human nature transmute into the Divine nature. The Divine nature did not mix with the human nature nor mingle with it, but it was a unity that led to the Oneness of Nature.
I do not believe that non-Chalcedonians are monophysite heretics. I do believe, however, that they are in schism and will be until full communion is restored. I desperately want to achieve unity, but not at the expense of renouncing Chalcedon. If the Holy Spirit guides the Church in an Ecumenical Council, then He'd have to be rather dumb for allowing the Church to excommunicate half its members without just cause.
The question is, which is the "just cause?"
BINGO!!!That is a hard question to answer. I don't believe it will be resolved without a new Ecumenical Council.
If you were so satisfied that Chalcedon was not Nestorian, you wouldn't need to continually defend yourselves either. If St. Athanasius considered the faith of the divinity of Christ to be sufficient, he wouldn't write dozens of books on the subject.If you honestly believed that your church is not heretical, you would be satisfied in this belief rather than starting threads to justify it. I do not know whether Non-Chalcedonians are heretical or not. I do believe, however, that you have more important matters to discuss regarding your faith.
If that is the case, that you stand as a person who does not want to assume a union or who does not know where you stand, then you should not assume we are anti-Cyrillians either (or that we even deserved the deaths the empire caused on our ancestors).I'm sorry that I have offended you. I do believe there are more important matters to discuss. If the Eastern Orthodox hierarchy decided to restore communion, that would be fine with me. Until that time, let's not pretend there is union where union does not yet exist, even if it should exist.