Ukraine Might Still Loose the War

childeye 2

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2018
4,995
2,895
66
Denver CO
✟205,178.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I Agree, Putin brought cannons to liberate Russian speaking people in the Donbas from Zelensky's genocide, that was in direct violation of the internationally recognized Minsk Agreements
Before you implied that the U.S. was the instigator of the war by saying Ukraine was a proxy for the West. Now you claim Zelensky was killing anyone speaking Russian, so Putin had to bring cannons to stop him. Sounds like hyperbole to me (exaggerating reality).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,151
6,364
✟277,654.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I Agree, Putin brought cannons to liberate Russian speaking people in the Donbas from Zelensky's genocide, that was in direct violation of the internationally recognized Minsk Agreements

This is entirely backwards. Putin bought cannons in first. Zelensky wasn't elected until 2019 - at which point the conflict in the Donbas had been going on for five years. [Corrections in bold]

Atrributing the Donbas conflict to Zelensky is about as accurate as arguing that Churchill should be blamed for the Battle of France, or that Truman was responsible for Pearl Harbour.

Russian interference in the Donbas region had been ongoing for years, up to the point where hundreds of armoured vehicles and artillery pieces were being driven up to the Russia-Ukraine border and the 'disappearing' only to resurface in the arms of the DPR & LPR. Russian armed forces personnel were documentated as being involved in direct conflict with Ukrainian armed forces from early 2014 onwards, in roles from logistics all the way up to direct infantry combat.

Russian supported ultra-nationalist para-militaries in the Donbas were operating since late 2013. GRU Spetznaz and SOF personnel identified as operating in Georgia before the 2008 war were also identified as being in Donbas in early 2014. The were then joined by troops identified as belonging to the VDV and various Russian PMCs.

Those are the famous 'little green men'.

The leader of the DPR claimed in 2015 that there were as many as 50,000 Russian troops had been rotated through Ukraine in the past 18 months. That's likely an exaggeration, but not by an order of magnitude.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,792
858
62
Florida
✟116,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
More than (1)

Glad to see you have acknowledged the innocent killing of Russian speaking people in the Donbas, with Zelensky being in violation of the internationally recognized Minsk Agreements
Donbas only had 4 million people and less than 40% (38.2%) of the population was Russian. So you are claiming that more than HALF of the less than 2 million ethnic Russians in Donbas were murdered before the Russian Invasion.

I call balderdash!​


If TRUE, then the Donbas region is overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian now and it is too late for Russia to accomplish anything by invading. Your mythical facts do not stand up to scrutiny.
 
Upvote 0

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,098
1,318
✟93,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is entirely backwards. Putin bought cannons in first. Zelensky wasn't elected until 2017 - at which point the conflict in the Donbas had been going on for three years.

Atrributing the Donbas conflict to Zelensky is about as accurate as arguing that Churchill should be blamed for the Battle of France, or that Truman was responsible for Pearl Harbour.

Russian interference in the Donbas region had been ongoing for years, up to the point where hundreds of armoured vehicles and artillery pieces were being driven up to the Russia-Ukraine border and the 'disappearing' only to resurface in the arms of the DPR & LPR. Russian armed forces personnel were documentated as being involved in direct conflict with Ukrainian armed forces from early 2014 onwards, in roles from logistics all the way up to direct infantry combat.

Russian supported ultra-nationalist para-militaries in the Donbas were operating since late 2013. GRU Spetznaz and SOF personnel identified as operating in Georgia before the 2008 war were also identified as being in Donbas in early 2014. The were then joined by troops identified as belonging to the VDV and various Russian PMCs.

Those are the famous 'little green men'.

The leader of the DPR claimed in 2015 that there were as many as 50,000 Russian troops had been rotated through Ukraine in the past 18 months. That's likely an exaggeration, but not by an order of magnitude.
Did Zelensky continue to kill Russian speaking people in the Donbas that was in direct violation of the internationally recognized Minsk Agreements, 100% Yes
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,098
1,318
✟93,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Donbas only had 4 million people and less than 40% (38.2%) of the population was Russian. So you are claiming that more than HALF of the less than 2 million ethnic Russians in Donbas were murdered before the Russian Invasion.

I call balderdash!​


If TRUE, then the Donbas region is overwhelmingly ethnic Ukrainian now and it is too late for Russia to accomplish anything by invading. Your mythical facts do not stand up to scrutiny.
Good research, what is your source?
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,420
11,569
76
✟371,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian

NBCNews​

Ukraine is running low on ammo. Europe faces pressure to produce more.​

Mar 3, 2023

Dwindling foreign stockpiles are an increasing concern as the U.S. and other allies debate how to increase production of munitions the world hasn’t much needed since the Cold War.

Russia Is Running Out of Fresh Ammo and May Need to Use 40-Year-Old Shells

Russia is running low on ammunition as its Ukraine invasion careens toward the one-year mark, and it may soon be forced to use older, unreliable rockets and artillery shells -- some built decades ago, according to a senior U.S. military official.

The new ammunition, what the Pentagon calls "fully serviceable," could be used up by early next year as the war continues despite the winter weather, said the official, who briefed the press Monday on the condition of anonymity. Russia also appears to be running low on precision-guided munitions.

Moscow is faced with relying more heavily on degraded rockets and shells, which could ratchet up risks to its own troops and leave unexploded ordnance strewn across Ukraine, or finding some way to replenish new stocks despite international sanctions designed to stamp out its war effort.


Difference is, NATO nations have the money and technology to make more of it.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,151
6,364
✟277,654.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Did Zelensky continue to kill Russian speaking people in the Donbas that was in direct violation of the internationally recognized Minsk Agreements, 100% Yes

The Minsk agreement was moribund in 2015 - four years BEFORE Zelensky was elected.

The only reason the Minsk agreements were needed in the first place was because of a Russian supported separatist campaign being waged WITHIN Ukraine.

Russian forces were operating illegally within the Donbas region at least since the start of 2014.

In 2016, OSCE reported Russian forces were present in Donbas and Russia was engaged in "continued and active support of combined separatist-forces in Ukraine". In 2018, the OSCE noted the "clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by acts of aggression by the Russian armed forces since February 2014" in the region. This was up to the point of observing Russian soldiers who had failed to remove their unit identification patches and identifying armoured vehicles and specalised equipment that had been manufactured in Russia within the past five years and passed to DPR/LPR service.

Let me reiterate that - the conflict in the Donbas was deliberately precipitated by Russia. Russia promised and delivered financial and material support to separatist groups. It then covertly invaded a neighbour in order to provide armed support to those separatist groups.

When those separatist groups failed to make sufficient headway, Russia then opted to move from a quiet invasion to a 'special military operation'.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,151
6,364
✟277,654.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private

Russia Is Running Out of Fresh Ammo and May Need to Use 40-Year-Old Shells

Russia is running low on ammunition as its Ukraine invasion careens toward the one-year mark, and it may soon be forced to use older, unreliable rockets and artillery shells -- some built decades ago, according to a senior U.S. military official.

The new ammunition, what the Pentagon calls "fully serviceable," could be used up by early next year as the war continues despite the winter weather, said the official, who briefed the press Monday on the condition of anonymity. Russia also appears to be running low on precision-guided munitions.

Moscow is faced with relying more heavily on degraded rockets and shells, which could ratchet up risks to its own troops and leave unexploded ordnance strewn across Ukraine, or finding some way to replenish new stocks despite international sanctions designed to stamp out its war effort.

One of the more obvious examples is Russia rolling out old 122mm Grad ammunition.

Russia is reporting having problems with premature detonations of 122mm rockets - which is a major problem as the things come in a launcher with 40 to 48 tubes.

This problem was observed in the West as having being solved by the end of the 1970s. So, if this problem is cropping up again, it could be that Russia is having to resort to ammunition produced before 1980.
 
Upvote 0

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,098
1,318
✟93,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Minsk agreement was moribund in 2015 - four years BEFORE Zelensky was elected.

The only reason the Minsk agreements were needed in the first place was because of a Russian supported separatist campaign being waged WITHIN Ukraine.

Russian forces were operating illegally within the Donbas region at least since the start of 2014.

In 2016, OSCE reported Russian forces were present in Donbas and Russia was engaged in "continued and active support of combined separatist-forces in Ukraine". In 2018, the OSCE noted the "clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by acts of aggression by the Russian armed forces since February 2014" in the region. This was up to the point of observing Russian soldiers who had failed to remove their unit identification patches and identifying armoured vehicles and specalised equipment that had been manufactured in Russia within the past five years and passed to DPR/LPR service.

Let me reiterate that - the conflict in the Donbas was deliberately precipitated by Russia. Russia promised and delivered financial and material support to separatist groups. It then covertly invaded a neighbour in order to provide armed support to those separatist groups.

When those separatist groups failed to make sufficient headway, Russia then opted to move from a quiet invasion to a 'special military operation'.
1.) You will note that foreign minister for Russia Lavrov extended to the US implementation of the Minsk in Oct 2021, the issue could be settled "Quickly" this took place four months before Feb 24th 2022 and the beginning of the conflict

2.) You will closely note that Russian officials insisted that Ukraine's Zelensky negotiate directly with the leadership of the Donetsk and Luhansk people, and Zelensky stated he wasn't going to negotiate with terrorist, Zelensky's words apparently sealed the fate regarding the future conflict that started on Feb 24, 2022

3.) Finnish president on Feb 2022 stated a return to the Minsk is the solution to the problem, move towards significant progress

4.) Russian spokesperson Feb 15, 2022 stated recognizing the Donbas republics wouldn't be in keeping the Minsk agreements, he stated it was Putins plan to implement the agreement

5.) On Feb 22, 2022 Russian President Putin stated the Minsk agreements no longer existed, and on Feb 24, 2024 Russia entered Ukraine

Conclusion: Russia extended the olive branch to the US and Ukraine, four months prior to Feb 24, 2022, the Finnish president endorsed Minsk implementation, the Russian spokesman affirmed this

It appears that when Ukraines president Zelensky stated he wasn't going to negotiate with terrorist in the Donbas is the straw that broke the camels back, and here we are 17 months later, 10's of thousands of lives lost, and $Billions$ spent, with tactical nuclear missiles on high alert in Belarus?

Wikipedia: Minsk Agreements
In October 2021, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov said that "if the Americans are genuinely prepared to support the implementation of the Minsk Agreements, this issue can be settled very quickly."[98]

A dispute emerged over the role of the Russian Federation, with the parties understanding Minsk as an agreement between Ukraine and Russia,[99][100][101][102] but Russian officials claiming the role of mediator, insisted that Ukraine negotiate directly with representatives of the self-proclaimed separatist republics in parts of Donetsk and Luhansk.[103] Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he has "no intention of talking to terrorists".[104] The Russian side refused high-level talks, and the Kremlin endorsed an October 2021 Kommersant article by former Russian president Dmitri Medvedev entitled "Why It Is Senseless to Deal with the Current Ukrainian Leadership",[105][106] which some have criticized.[107]

In November 2021, the Russian foreign ministry breached diplomatic protocol by releasing confidential correspondence with negotiators Germany and France.[108][109]

In December 2021, Chief of General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Valery Gerasimov said that "Kyiv is not fulfilling the Minsk Agreements. The Ukrainian armed forces are touting that they have started to employ US-supplied Javelin anti-tank missile systems in Donbas and are also using Turkish reconnaissance/strike drones. As a result, the already tense situation in the east of that country is further deteriorating."[110]

In January 2022, Oleksiy Danilov, the secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, said that "The fulfillment of the Minsk agreement means the country’s destruction. When they were signed under the Russian gun barrel — and the German and the French watched — it was already clear for all rational people that it’s impossible to implement those documents."[111]

In February 2022, Finnish President Sauli Niinistö said "the most possible solution (to the current situation) could be the Minsk agreement to be fulfilled or that there would be significant progress in its implementation."[112]

On 15 February 2022, the Russian Duma voted to appeal to President Putin to recognise the self-proclaimed LPR and DPR.[113] The next day, a Russian government spokesman acknowledged that officially recognising the Donbas republics would not be in keeping with the Minsk agreements.[114] However, he also told journalists that Putin's priority in regulating the situation in Donbas is the implementation of mechanisms adopted under those agreements.[115] Russia went on to officially recognise the self-proclaimed Luhansk and Donetsk people's republics on 21 February 2022.[9] Following that decision, on 22 February 2022, President Putin said that the Minsk agreements "no longer existed", and that Ukraine, not Russia, was to blame for their collapse, accusing Ukraine of genocide in Donbas in his comments[116][117][10] – a statement largely seen as baseless and factually wrong by the wider world, academics studying genocide, and the United Nations.[118][119][120][121] Russia then invaded Ukraine on 24 February 2022.[11]
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,098
1,318
✟93,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Minsk agreement was moribund in 2015 - four years BEFORE Zelensky was elected.

The only reason the Minsk agreements were needed in the first place was because of a Russian supported separatist campaign being waged WITHIN Ukraine.

Russian forces were operating illegally within the Donbas region at least since the start of 2014.

In 2016, OSCE reported Russian forces were present in Donbas and Russia was engaged in "continued and active support of combined separatist-forces in Ukraine". In 2018, the OSCE noted the "clear violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity by acts of aggression by the Russian armed forces since February 2014" in the region. This was up to the point of observing Russian soldiers who had failed to remove their unit identification patches and identifying armoured vehicles and specalised equipment that had been manufactured in Russia within the past five years and passed to DPR/LPR service.

Let me reiterate that - the conflict in the Donbas was deliberately precipitated by Russia. Russia promised and delivered financial and material support to separatist groups. It then covertly invaded a neighbour in order to provide armed support to those separatist groups.

When those separatist groups failed to make sufficient headway, Russia then opted to move from a quiet invasion to a 'special military operation'.
Ukraines position on peace talks, that were to be sponsored by France and Germany, a denial for talks under claims it would create chaos

Associated Press​

Ukraine security chief: Minsk peace deal may create chaos​

Jan 31, 2022

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine’s security chief warned the West on Monday against forcing the country to fulfill a peace deal for eastern Ukraine brokered by France and Germany, charging that an attempt to implement it could trigger internal unrest that would benefit Moscow.
 
Upvote 0

Gene2memE

Newbie
Oct 22, 2013
4,151
6,364
✟277,654.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Why just misleadingly recycle part of a wiki article?

Minsk 2 was dead within months of its conclusion. Why? Because no party to the agreement followed it. Because a party that wasn't included under the agreement kept engaging in flagrant violations, which only triggered rounds of retaliation by agreement members.

Gee, I wonder who's forces those were. (end sarcasm)

Read the OSCE SMM's nearly 900 updates on the agreement. Or just those from 2015. Tell me what it says about activity in Donbas.
 
Upvote 0

Truth7t7

Newbie
Dec 20, 2012
5,098
1,318
✟93,658.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why just misleadingly recycle part of a wiki article?

Minsk 2 was dead within months of its conclusion. Why? Because no party to the agreement followed it. Because a party that wasn't included under the agreement kept engaging in flagrant violations, which only triggered rounds of retaliation by agreement members.

Gee, I wonder who's forces those were. (end sarcasm)

Read the OSCE SMM's nearly 900 updates on the agreement. Or just those from 2015. Tell me what it says about activity in Donbas.

Like Ukraine's military trying to cut off water supply to 300,000 civilians in Russian speaking Donetsk?​

OSCE Chief Monitor in Ukraine says ongoing failure to implement Minsk agreements jeopardizes Donetsk Filtration Station’s work, puts civilians on both sides of contact line at risk​

KYIV 3 May 2018

KYIV, 3 May 2018 –Civilian workers maintaining the Donetsk Filtration Station and the civilian monitoring officers from the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine (SMM) currently facilitating their access must be protected, said the SMM Chief Monitor Ertugrul Apakan in Kyiv today.

The Chief Monitor noted with concern the continued failure to abide by the Minsk agreements. He said sometimes hundreds of ceasefire violations have been recorded on a daily basis by the SMM in the wider area surrounding the Donetsk Filtration Station, endangering lives and jeopardizing the operation of the facility upon which more than 300,000 people on both sides of the contact line depend for drinking water.

These violations are being committed, the Chief Monitor said, despite the security guarantees recently provided. He stressed that the sides had committed to a cessation of fire as far back as September 2014, and had specifically reached an understanding last year that the Donetsk Filtration Station and other critical civilian infrastructure facilities must be protected.

While the SMM continues and stands ready to further facilitate dialogue, ultimately “responsibility rests exclusively with the sides to ensure the well-being of the civilian population,” the Chief Monitor said.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,420
11,569
76
✟371,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
And it moves forward...
putotrumpdown.jpg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Estrid

Well-Known Member
Feb 10, 2021
9,803
3,258
39
Hong Kong
✟153,066.00
Country
Hong Kong
Faith
Skeptic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Upvote 0

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Jun 18, 2017
1,792
858
62
Florida
✟116,295.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My response was "more than (1)" not 1 million as you apparently suggest
Ok, Then how many GENOCIDES happened in Russia, today?
(I bet more than 1 person was killed somewhere in Russia.)
The US has about 7 GENOCIDES per 100,000 people per year (almost 22,000 per year).

See how you have rendered the word "genocide" a meaningless pawn by using it to refer to "even a single death".
Russia should stop its INTERNAL GENOCIDE (your definition) before inflicting MASS GENOCIDE on Ukranians and worrying about the death of "more than 1" Ukrainian of Russian heritage.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
26,420
11,569
76
✟371,360.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Russia is reporting having problems with premature detonations of 122mm rockets - which is a major problem as the things come in a launcher with 40 to 48 tubes.
So, the crews step back a bit when firing them, I suppose...
 
  • Haha
Reactions: atpollard
Upvote 0