The Five Fold Ministries Cannot Function In Our Current Factionalised Church

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Nope. So what?

Is he Jesus Christ, the chief Apostle? Not at all, nor has anyone else been.

Just because a fellow gets up on his hind legs and calls himself an apostle doesn't make him one. Just because a select group of people call him an apostle also doesn't make him one. (Six munce ago I cudden spel apossul, and now I are one!"}

 

[bbbbbbb]

Just because a fellow gets up on his hind legs and calls himself an apostle doesn't make him one. Just because a select group of people call him an apostle also doesn't make him one. (Six munce ago I cudden spel apossul, and now I are one!"}

A missionary by any other name is a missionary. I don't understand why you think missionaries need to be divinely ordained by God Himself.

I suppose John Darby may have been right, after all. The Church is in utter ruin and has not possessed any authority at all since the last of Christ's twelve apostles died.

 

[Marilyn C]

I accept that concerning the apostles connected with Paul's ministry. So, name me some modern apostles that fit the criteria.

Thank you for asking. Now I am nearly 76 years old and am 3rd generation Apostolic. (NOT the NAR Dominionists & CEO Apostles)

I was brought up amongst Apostles, prophets etc. My uncle and grandfather were recognised Apostles and became leaders of the Apostolic denomination in Australia and New Zealand for a time last century. They originally came out from Scotland after having been with those who came out of the Welsh Revival back early last century.

People tend to think that Apostles are CEO`s or those who start churches. However, my understanding is that they have a deep understanding of the Lord, His character and His purposes to give to the Body.

Charles James Rolls a well known Bible teacher from last century wrote books on the names and offices of the Lord in such an amazing detail that only the Lord could have given Him such understanding. You can get some of his books second hand quite cheaply now.

Now, my hubby and I are in a relational network of believers so we are not so much into the denominational meetings any more but rather helping each other daily and helping with those we are mentoring. We teach what I was taught by these past Apostles etc to our disciples.

 

[Marilyn C]

So,
He personally witnessed the resurrection of Christ.
Has signs and wonders as an integral component of his ministry.
Recognised and supported by the whole body of Christ.

That requirement was only for the 12 who walked with the Lord and had to witness of His resurrection to Israel.

The 5 fold ministries were given by the Lord when He ascended to build up and equip the Body. (Eph. 4: 11 & 12)

Also, remember that when any truth is clarified by the Holy Spirit after many years of error, it is only accepted by a few first then later spreads throughout the Body. Plus, the billions in the Body of Christ are not going to know every Apostle, Prophet etc.

 

[Marilyn C]

Just because a fellow gets up on his hind legs and calls himself an apostle doesn't make him one. Just because a select group of people call him an apostle also doesn't make him one. (Six munce ago I cudden spel apossul, and now I are one!"}

That`s so true however it also doesn`t mean that the Lord has not given of His ministries for the Body to build and equip over the centuries. That is where discernment comes in.

 

[Marilyn C]

A missionary by any other name is a missionary. I don't understand why you think missionaries need to be divinely ordained by God Himself.

I suppose John Darby may have been right, after all. The Church is in utter ruin and has not possessed any authority at all since the last of Christ's twelve apostles died.

Do you really mean that? Has the Head of the Body done such a bad job at building His called out ones? Can you see into every believer`s heart across the world and thus declare the ruin?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

A missionary by any other name is a missionary. I don't understand why you think missionaries need to be divinely ordained by God Himself.

I suppose John Darby may have been right, after all. The Church is in utter ruin and has not possessed any authority at all since the last of Christ's twelve apostles died.

Recognising missionaries is no problem. The people who set themselves up as apostles, giving the impression that they have a special place with God that the common believers don't have, are a real problem. The "new" revelation that these men are teaching is mainly heresy and is leading people away from sound doctrine.

 

[Pioneer3mm]

They originally came out from Scotland after having been with those who came out of the Welsh Revival back early last century.

Revivals in Scotland & Wales.
- Interesting history..
- 'Welsh Revival' had an impact/influence on several countries.
---
I will be in Scotland..next month/September..
- short trip

 

[Carl Emerson]

Revivals in Scotland & Wales.
- Interesting history..
- 'Welsh Revival' had an impact/influence on several countries.
---
I will be in Scotland..next month/September..
- short trip

Such revivals are little spoken of, because they shake the theological cages that we sadly love to live in.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you really mean that? Has the Head of the Body done such a bad job at building His called out ones? Can you see into every believer`s heart across the world and thus declare the ruin?

I can't at all and disagree with Mr. Darby, but that was his conclusion following a lifetime of dissension and discord, primarily caused by his fractious personality, among the Plymouth Brethren.

I respectfully disagree with both yourself and Watchman in defining what an apostle is. I prefer to derive the definition from the Greek word itself which simply means one sent out (for a purpose). Thus, we see that Jesus Christ is the chief Apostle, as named in Hebrews, having been sent from the Father with the unique purpose of providing salvation. He appointed Twelve whom He sent out as seen in the Great Commission at the end of Matthew and Mark. One of the Twelve, Judas, failed (to say the least) and was replaced by Matthias. Paul, who made no secret about being an apostle, was not of the Twelve, and was sent with the gospel to the Gentiles. There were others in the New Testament who were mentioned as being apostles. They were also sent out, but we do not know precisely for what purpose, but it seems to have been to proclaim the Gospel and establish churches.

Today we call the folks sent to preach the gospel and establish churches as missionaries. Curiously, there are no "missionaries" in our Bibles, so they occupy sort of a foggy area which cannot easily be reckoned with in a biblical manner. It is more than peculiar that God would not provide spiritual empowerment for such a vital aspect of His church. Thus, I believe that what we term to be missionaries are sent out ones on the order of apostles (note the small a, not the large A as in the Twelve).

If, however, there are folks with the chutzpah to style themselves as equivalent to the Twelve, then they are quite probably either seriously deluded or intentionally self-promoting. The Apostolic Catholic Church comes to my mind as only one example.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Recognising missionaries is no problem. The people who set themselves up as apostles, giving the impression that they have a special place with God that the common believers don't have, are a real problem. The "new" revelation that these men are teaching is mainly heresy and is leading people away from sound doctrine.

I agree with you completely. Please see my post above.

 

[Marilyn C]

I can't at all and disagree with Mr. Darby, but that was his conclusion following a lifetime of dissension and discord, primarily caused by his fractious personality, among the Plymouth Brethren.

I respectfully disagree with both yourself and Watchman in defining what an apostle is. I prefer to derive the definition from the Greek word itself which simply means one sent out (for a purpose). Thus, we see that Jesus Christ is the chief Apostle, as named in Hebrews, having been sent from the Father with the unique purpose of providing salvation. He appointed Twelve whom He sent out as seen in the Great Commission at the end of Matthew and Mark. One of the Twelve, Judas, failed (to say the least) and was replaced by Matthias. Paul, who made no secret about being an apostle, was not of the Twelve, and was sent with the gospel to the Gentiles. There were others in the New Testament who were mentioned as being apostles. They were also sent out, but we do not know precisely for what purpose, but it seems to have been to proclaim the Gospel and establish churches.

Today we call the folks sent to preach the gospel and establish churches as missionaries. Curiously, there are no "missionaries" in our Bibles, so they occupy sort of a foggy area which cannot easily be reckoned with in a biblical manner. It is more than peculiar that God would not provide spiritual empowerment for such a vital aspect of His church. Thus, I believe that what we term to be missionaries are sent out ones on the order of apostles (note the small a, not the large A as in the Twelve).

If, however, there are folks with the chutzpah to style themselves as equivalent to the Twelve, then they are quite probably either seriously deluded or intentionally self-promoting. The Apostolic Catholic Church comes to my mind as only one example.

So, the `sent out with a purpose` is for -

- the 12 disciples/apostles - witnessing of Christ`s resurrection to Israel. (Acts 1: 22, 2: 36)
- the apostles after Jesus ascended and gave apostles to His Body, their purpose for being sent is to receive of the Head, Christ and share that with the believers in the Body. (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

 

[bbbbbbb]

So, the `sent out with a purpose` is for -

- the 12 disciples/apostles - witnessing of Christ`s resurrection to Israel. (Acts 1: 22, 2: 36)
- the apostles after Jesus ascended and gave apostles to His Body, their purpose for being sent is to receive of the Head, Christ and share that with the believers in the Body. (Eph. 3: 3 - 5)

Yes, but I will also include Jesus Christ as the chief Apostle (Hebrews 3:1).

 

[Rasalhague888]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trump666/comments/s2l7oa
Be on the lookout for FIVE figures that are described in Revelation: (1) The Red Dragon/Antichrist, (2) the First Beast, (3) the Second Beast, (4) the False Prophet, (5) the harlot of Babylon.

The most likely candidates: (1) Donald Trump (2) Barack Obama -- he is a clone with 7 heads/copies, and an 8th copy which will be destroyed (3) Jared Kushner, (4) Pope Francis, (5) Taylor Swift.

The NAR ("New Apostolic Reformation") is based on what they call the "FIVE-FOLD Ministry". Not a coincidence.

In the near future, either during a staged debate or inauguration, they are going to perform a mock resurrection. Obama is going to receive a "mortal head wound" by sacrificing himself to "save" Trump from the attacker, and he'll be "miraculously" resurrected (a clone-swap via traditional trap-door stage magic most likely). Jared Kushner, Trump's "senior advisor" and son-in-law, will demand that all worship Obama, because Trump will give Obama all his authority. It is quite funny that Trump self-identifies as a Presbyterian.

Historically, the "Holy See" has been the arbiter in authenticating miracles, so Pope Francis will legitimize the false resurrection.
As for Taylor Swift, the harlot of Babylon (America), she has been a VERY outspoken supporter of Obama. She is the scarlet harlot that "rides" the beast. The mark of the beast is the digital RFID embedded in every man, woman and child, without which nobody can buy or sell anything (evolved from rice-sized capsule to GRAPHENE NANO-BOTS.)

The evil genius of Trump lies in the fact that HE will rule by PROXY through Obama, who is not only a clone, but a CYBORG connected to the "Internet of Things", including the computers that run DEW (directed energy weapons). That is the technology which will permit him to bring fire down from the sky.

https://coverjunkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1289931572.jpg

 

[sandman]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Trump666/comments/s2l7oa
Be on the lookout for FIVE figures that are described in Revelation: (1) The Red Dragon/Antichrist, (2) the First Beast, (3) the Second Beast, (4) the False Prophet, (5) the harlot of Babylon.

The most likely candidates: (1) Donald Trump (2) Barack Obama -- he is a clone with 7 heads/copies, and an 8th copy which will be destroyed (3) Jared Kushner, (4) Pope Francis, (5) Taylor Swift.

The NAR ("New Apostolic Reformation") is based on what they call the "FIVE-FOLD Ministry". Not a coincidence.

In the near future, either during a staged debate or inauguration, they are going to perform a mock resurrection. Obama is going to receive a "mortal head wound" by sacrificing himself to "save" Trump from the attacker, and he'll be "miraculously" resurrected (a clone-swap via traditional trap-door stage magic most likely). Jared Kushner, Trump's "senior advisor" and son-in-law, will demand that all worship Obama, because Trump will give Obama all his authority. It is quite funny that Trump self-identifies as a Presbyterian.

Historically, the "Holy See" has been the arbiter in authenticating miracles, so Pope Francis will legitimize the false resurrection.
As for Taylor Swift, the harlot of Babylon (America), she has been a VERY outspoken supporter of Obama. She is the scarlet harlot that "rides" the beast. The mark of the beast is the digital RFID embedded in every man, woman and child, without which nobody can buy or sell anything (evolved from rice-sized capsule to GRAPHENE NANO-BOTS.)

The evil genius of Trump lies in the fact that HE will rule by PROXY through Obama, who is not only a clone, but a CYBORG connected to the "Internet of Things", including the computers that run DEW (directed energy weapons). That is the technology which will permit him to bring fire down from the sky.

https://coverjunkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/1289931572.jpg

WOW
I never thought of it in that light....but then again.... it's been decades since I have done acid.

 

[Rasalhague888]

WOW
I never thought of it in that light....but then again.... it's been decades since I have done acid.

That's your problem... having done acid. And now, you are unable to think. Our condolences.

 

[Bobber]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism.

By saying though one faith if you're meaning by that they all believe exactly the same thing about every issue I'd say that was not so. And God never even insisted that they do. If one wanted to observe certain days and if the conscience insisted it was said let each one (on some issues) be convinced in their own mind.

This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

It's certainly different but I refuse to accept Jesus isn't building his church or that it has no hope of being what God wanted it to be.

 

[Marilyn C]

By saying though one faith if you're meaning by that they all believe exactly the same thing about every issue I'd say that was not so. And God never even insisted that they do. If one wanted to observe certain days and if the conscience insisted it was said let each one (on some issues) be convinced in their own mind.


It's certainly different but I refuse to accept Jesus isn't building his church or that it has no hope of being what God wanted it to be.

Hi Bobber,

I agree. The 5 fold ministries are not CEO`s of man`s organizations but ministries out in the field as they were in the early days. It is only over time that man has build these grand buildings that need to be paid for, also the salaries of those credentialed by man, and the insurances, etc etc.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hi Bobber,

I agree. The 5 fold ministries are not CEO`s of man`s organizations but ministries out in the field as they were in the early days. It is only over time that man has build these grand buildings that need to be paid for, also the salaries of those credentialed by man, and the insurances, etc etc.

What I find curious (to put it mildly) is the very large number of people who are deeply attached to hugely bloated religious bureaucracies.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

By saying though one faith if you're meaning by that they all believe exactly the same thing about every issue I'd say that was not so. And God never even insisted that they do. If one wanted to observe certain days and if the conscience insisted it was said let each one (on some issues) be convinced in their own mind.


It's certainly different but I refuse to accept Jesus isn't building his church or that it has no hope of being what God wanted it to be.

Which of our denominations is Christ's own church? That is the question.