The Five Fold Ministries Cannot Function In Our Current Factionalised Church

[HatGuy]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. In our current church environment we have many Lords depending on the denomination's theology, a particular baptism for each denomination, often not transferrable between them, forcing the believer to be re-baptised when changing denominations, and many versions of the faith, also depending on that denomination's view of the Gospel and its theology.

What this means is that persons can view themselves as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors or teachers in their own denomination, but in all case, they are not recognised outside of their particular movement or denomination. This means that these ministries as part of the five fold ministries cannot function as they were designed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not respect denominational labels, and therefore does not practice favouritism.

The Scripture says that the household of faith (the Christian church) is based on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The problem is that one the last Apostle and Prophet died, that foundation ceased to exist. Because there are no general apostles and prophets recognised by the whole church, that foundation no longer exists. This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

Therefore the New Apostolic Restoration movement is man's mistaken view that the Holy Spirit has restored the five fold ministries to their particular movement. But the Holy Spirit's criteria for the restoration of the five fold ministries is that the denominational structures are done away with and the Christian church is restored to a totally unified body once more where there is truly one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism, and one God and Father over all.

In 1 Corinthians 9:2, Paul says:

2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Indicating that some did not see him as an apostle in his time.

Not everyone will recognize someone's ministry. I don't think this is a bad thing.

But onto Eph 4 - the verses explicitly state that the reason why the five-fold ministry exists is to create unity. Your hypothesis is the wrong way around - it's not that we need unity before we have the five-fold ministry, it's that the five-fold ministry is necessary to create unity. The ministries themselves are designed to work in a disunited state. The scripture says they are to exist UNTIL we reach unity of the faith.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In 1 Corinthians 9:2, Paul says:

2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you, for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

Indicating that some did not see him as an apostle in his time.

Not everyone will recognize someone's ministry. I don't think this is a bad thing.

But onto Eph 4 - the verses explicitly state that the reason why the five-fold ministry exists is to create unity. Your hypothesis is the wrong way around - it's not that we need unity before we have the five-fold ministry, it's that the five-fold ministry is necessary to create unity. The ministries themselves are designed to work in a disunited state. The scripture says they are to exist UNTIL we reach unity of the faith.

You are correct. If these ministries are used according to the Holy Spirit, they will steer the body of Christ toward the unity of the faith. Therefore if a person says he is an apostle, a prophet, an evangelist, pastor, or teacher, and is not actively working to bring all believers into the unity of the faith, then he is not called of God to any of those ministries. This is why I think that the majority of those who call themselves apostles and prophets are not sent by the Holy Spirit, because all they are doing is forming a movement of disciples around themselves and their own name instead of the Name of Christ.

 

[HatGuy]

You are correct. If these ministries are used according to the Holy Spirit, they will steer the body of Christ toward the unity of the faith. Therefore if a person says he is an apostle, a prophet, an evangelist, pastor, or teacher, and is not actively working to bring all believers into the unity of the faith, then he is not called of God to any of those ministries. This is why I think that the majority of those who call themselves apostles and prophets are not sent by the Holy Spirit, because all they are doing is forming a movement of disciples around themselves and their own name instead of the Name of Christ.

Oh, I get it now. Thank you! I agree!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Oh, I get it now. Thank you! I agree!

How does that conclusion apply to say Martin Luther ?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

How does that conclusion apply to say Martin Luther ?

I don't think that Martin Luther set out to form a denomination around himself. Those who came after and formed the Lutheran denomination did that.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And Paul for that matter - strongly opposed Barnabas and disunited...

Was he no longer an apostle from thence ?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And Paul for that matter - strongly opposed Barnabas and disunited...

Was he no longer an apostle from thence ?

Paul only disagreed with Barnabas concerning whether or not to include Mark in the next missionary journey. There is no record that Paul opposed Barnabas in the way he preached the Gospel. I believe they both remained apostles. We don't know what happened to Barnabas after that because Luke remained with Paul and it was Luke's journal that became the Book of Acts.

 

[HatGuy]

How does that conclusion apply to say Martin Luther ?

I think what is being addressed here is motive and ambition.

Luther was a fiery character for sure. Yet quite brilliant. Straightforward and sometimes crass. But his ambition appeared to be to see the truth set people free, and find unity in that truth. The situation with Zwingli was unfortunate, but sometimes I think Luther had burnt himself out and the guy really needed a long vacation.

I've often wondered where Luther might fit in the five-fold ministry perspective. I believe people tend to have a 'gift mix' - perhaps somewhat more of one than the other, but a little bit of each. That seems to be the case and the Bible certainly allows for such an interpretation (Paul, Peter were both apostles and elders - so pastoral as well).

In that case it seems Luther was quite prophetic - and a teacher with a pastor's heart. His concerns were primarily pastoral, but that prophetic voice is what was so cutting. There is space for honest prophetic voices. Sometimes those create a separation, but the motive is unity around the right things. Jesus too said he came not to bring peace, but a sword. There is a time to break down and a time to build up.

Eph 4 is referring to 'team ministry'. If you look at the verses we see the purpose and motivation. Eph 4 ministry is to

(1) Equip the saints for the work of the ministry (therefore not to build platforms for themselves)
(2) Build up the body of Christ (not their own ministry - not create their own denomination - not build their own legacy)
(3) For the purposes of us ALL to attain unity of the faith, knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood (not elevate some elite prophets with a hotline to God)
(4) so we won't be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine (thinking Luther here) (also thinking about a lot of the present-day apostolic movement; are they really doing this? Or introducing new doctrine?
(5) We would grow up (not easy to do)
(6) to work properly together
(7) to be joined in love

11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

FULL DISCLAIMER: I myself am part of an 'apostolic team', so I believe the Eph 4 gifts operate today - but we don't consider ourselves as part of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movement. Our roots lie elsewhere.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think what is being addressed here is motive and ambition.

Luther was a fiery character for sure. Yet quite brilliant. Straightforward and sometimes crass. But his ambition appeared to be to see the truth set people free, and find unity in that truth. The situation with Zwingli was unfortunate, but sometimes I think Luther had burnt himself out and the guy really needed a long vacation.

I've often wondered where Luther might fit in the five-fold ministry perspective. I believe people tend to have a 'gift mix' - perhaps somewhat more of one than the other, but a little bit of each. That seems to be the case and the Bible certainly allows for such an interpretation (Paul, Peter were both apostles and elders - so pastoral as well).

In that case it seems Luther was quite prophetic - and a teacher with a pastor's heart. His concerns were primarily pastoral, but that prophetic voice is what was so cutting. There is space for honest prophetic voices. Sometimes those create a separation, but the motive is unity around the right things. Jesus too said he came not to bring peace, but a sword. There is a time to break down and a time to build up.

Eph 4 is referring to 'team ministry'. If you look at the verses we see the purpose and motivation. Eph 4 ministry is to

(1) Equip the saints for the work of the ministry (therefore not to build platforms for themselves)
(2) Build up the body of Christ (not their own ministry - not create their own denomination - not build their own legacy)
(3) For the purposes of us ALL to attain unity of the faith, knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood (not elevate some elite prophets with a hotline to God)
(4) so we won't be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine (thinking Luther here) (also thinking about a lot of the present-day apostolic movement; are they really doing this? Or introducing new doctrine?
(5) We would grow up (not easy to do)
(6) to work properly together
(7) to be joined in love

11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d] 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

FULL DISCLAIMER: I myself am part of an 'apostolic team', so I believe the Eph 4 gifts operate today - but we don't consider ourselves as part of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movement. Our roots lie elsewhere.

Billy Graham was a true evangelist as part of the five fold ministry, because he was transdenominational in the preaching of the Gospel.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think we may all be on the same page, but the way Wm1 put it made me feel that the divisive prophetic Word may have no place...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I think we may all be on the same page, but the way Wm1 put it made me feel that the divisive prophetic Word may have no place...

I didn't say that. The prophetic word belongs in the local assembly. Actually, when Paul wrote about the five fold ministries, the church was still one unified body, it was later on that the disunity began with the Arians and Gnostics splitting off from the main body. In Paul's later ministry when he wrote to Timothy, there were those who were departing from sound doctrine and promulgating fables. In a sense, by the time Paul was martyred the purpose of the five fold ministries was failing. By the time John received the Revelation, we see in what Jesus said about the seven churches the unity of the faith was starting to break down even in those seven churches which Jesus saw as examples of all the churches. By the 4th Century, the five fold ministries were a thing of the past as the bishops took over and professional clergy were installed in the churches.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

You are completely misreading the passage of the five-fold ministry.

"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness." (Ephesians 4:11–13)

The key word is "until." And that has not happened yet. It mirrors Paul's words when he says, "Now we see in part" from 1 Corinthians 12. Prophesy will cease, but that has not happened yet because Christ has not returned yet. "There must be divisions among you." Why? So the wheat can be made to show itself--so the true church can be the salt and light of the world.

Further, Paul and Barnabas had a falling out but they were both apostles. Paul had to rebuke Peter and they were both Apostles. Does anyone function in the same way as the 12 today? No. But that is not necessary to be called an apostle (lowercase).

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are completely misreading the passage of the five-fold ministry.

"And he himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, to build up the body of Christ, until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness." (Ephesians 4:11–13)

The key word is "until." And that has not happened yet. It mirrors Paul's words when he says, "Now we see in part" from 1 Corinthians 12. Prophesy will cease, but that has not happened yet because Christ has not returned yet. "There must be divisions among you." Why? So the wheat can be made to show itself--so the true church can be the salt and light of the world.

Further, Paul and Barnabas had a falling out but they were both apostles. Paul had to rebuke Peter and they were both Apostles. Does anyone function in the same way as the 12 today? No. But that is not necessary to be called an apostle (lowercase).

Good point here. There were from the very outset of the church various apostles sent out from the various churches, primarily to preach the gospel and establish new churches. Of the original eleven, all seemed to minister primarily to Jew or Jewish converts, but Paul was the one sent out by God to the Gentiles. One of the niggling questions is how many Apostles were there? If the account in Acts is reliable, and I believe it is, then Matthias became the twelfth Apostle following the loss of Judas. Then Paul comes on the scene claiming, with great authority, to be an apostle. Was he one of the Twelve Apostles, or an apostle?

 

[HatGuy]

Then Paul comes on the scene claiming, with great authority, to be an apostle. Was he one of the Twelve Apostles, or an apostle?

I believe the latter.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I believe the latter.

Thank you. I agree with you.

 

[Marilyn C]

The five fold ministries of apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher were designed to function in a church that was totally unified and all the regional churches in the then-known world totally complied with One Lord, One Faith, and One Baptism. In our current church environment we have many Lords depending on the denomination's theology, a particular baptism for each denomination, often not transferrable between them, forcing the believer to be re-baptised when changing denominations, and many versions of the faith, also depending on that denomination's view of the Gospel and its theology.

What this means is that persons can view themselves as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors or teachers in their own denomination, but in all case, they are not recognised outside of their particular movement or denomination. This means that these ministries as part of the five fold ministries cannot function as they were designed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not respect denominational labels, and therefore does not practice favouritism.

The Scripture says that the household of faith (the Christian church) is based on the foundation of the apostles and prophets. The problem is that one the last Apostle and Prophet died, that foundation ceased to exist. Because there are no general apostles and prophets recognised by the whole church, that foundation no longer exists. This means that our present factionalised churches have no secure foundation in the same way that the early unified church had.

Therefore the New Apostolic Restoration movement is man's mistaken view that the Holy Spirit has restored the five fold ministries to their particular movement. But the Holy Spirit's criteria for the restoration of the five fold ministries is that the denominational structures are done away with and the Christian church is restored to a totally unified body once more where there is truly one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism, and one God and Father over all.

Hi Watchman,

I read that the foundation of the Body of Christ is Christ.

`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

Eph. 2: 20 `Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. `

The Body of Christ is NOT built on men, but on the REVELATION of Christ that He gives to them for the Body to mature.

Now when Jesus ascended to the Father and was made Head of the Body He gave apostles etc. Here are a few -

APOSTLES GIVEN AFTER CHRIST`S ASCENSION.

Apostle Paul -

`Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,...` (2 Cor. 1; 1)


Apostle Silvanus -

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)


Apostle Timothy -

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)


Apostle Andronicus -

`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)


Apostle Junia -

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)


Apostle James - (The Lord`s brother, not James the son of Zebedee, Matt. 10: 2)

`But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord`s brother.` (Gal. 1: 19)


Apostle Epaphroditus - ( messenger is Gk. word `apostolos` meaning Apostle.)

`Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger, (apostolos/apostle) ...` (Phil. 2: 25)


Apostle Titus - (He does the work of an Apostle.)

`For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you - ` (Titus 1: 5)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi Watchman,

I read that the foundation of the Body of Christ is Christ.

`For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.` (1 Cor. 3: 11)

Eph. 2: 20 `Having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. `

The Body of Christ is NOT built on men, but on the REVELATION of Christ that He gives to them for the Body to mature.

Now when Jesus ascended to the Father and was made Head of the Body He gave apostles etc. Here are a few -

APOSTLES GIVEN AFTER CHRIST`S ASCENSION.

Apostle Paul -

`Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,...` (2 Cor. 1; 1)


Apostle Silvanus -

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)


Apostle Timothy -

`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)


Apostle Andronicus -

`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)


Apostle Junia -

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)


Apostle James - (The Lord`s brother, not James the son of Zebedee, Matt. 10: 2)

`But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord`s brother.` (Gal. 1: 19)


Apostle Epaphroditus - ( messenger is Gk. word `apostolos` meaning Apostle.)

`Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger, (apostolos/apostle) ...` (Phil. 2: 25)


Apostle Titus - (He does the work of an Apostle.)

`For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you - ` (Titus 1: 5)

I accept that concerning the apostles connected with Paul's ministry. So, name me some modern apostles that fit the criteria.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I accept that concerning the apostles connected with Paul's ministry. So, name me some modern apostles that fit the criteria.

Jim Brase, for one of tens of thousands of Christians sent out from churches as apostles (missionaries)

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jim Brase, for one of tens of thousands of Christians sent out from churches as apostles (missionaries)

So,
He personally witnessed the resurrection of Christ.
Has signs and wonders as an integral component of his ministry.
Recognised and supported by the whole body of Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So,
He personally witnessed the resurrection of Christ.
Has signs and wonders as an integral component of his ministry.
Recognised and supported by the whole body of Christ.

Nope. So what?

Is he Jesus Christ, the chief Apostle? Not at all, nor has anyone else been.