The Failure of the Church in Making Disciples

[shaul]

I wonder if others out there are as concerned as I about how much ignorance exist in the Churches today? I have recently moved and have been visiting many churches in order to find a real home. What I have encountered is a plethora of ignorance that exists among so many fervent yet misguided and ignorant believers as a result.

No, I am not saying that these believers are not sincere. I am not saying that they are intentionally ignorant of basic theology or understanding of basic theological or ecclesiastical history. I am saying they are not being taught even basic foundational doctrine and origins of the Church. It is quite alarming to me and concerns me greatly.

They do not even know very basic Judaic foundations from which the church came, how the Bible came to be, or any church history whatsoever. They know little to nothing about the difference of what a Gospel is verses an Epistle, outside of content. They lack any historical understanding or the purpose of why the authors of the Epistles were being written or to whom. Even worst, there seems to be a general attitude of "I know enough and if God wants me to know more, he will tell me." I have even heard modern Christians says that the first century church were fervent in reading the Bible everyday and that is why they were not swayed by false teachings. One church member actually believed that the original Bible was the King James version.

Have others had similar experiences? It really tugs at my heart and really concerns me. I am reminded of Hosea 4:6 where we read:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. (NASV).

Original Hebrew:

נִדְמ֥וּ עַמִּ֖י מִבְּלִ֣י הַדָּ֑עַת כִּ֣י אַתָּ֞ה הַדַּ֣עַת מָאַ֗סְתָּ וְאֶמְאָֽסְךָ֙ (כתיב וְאֶמְאָֽסְאךָ֙) מִכַּהֵ֣ן לִ֔י וַתִּשְׁכַּח֙ תּוֹרַ֣ת אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֶשְׁכַּ֥ח בָּנֶ֖יךָ גַּם־אָֽנִי

Would love to hear from others (including clergy). I would love to know what approaches others are taking in order to educate and train. We cannot possible win the world, when we cannot even defend what we believe and why.

It seems the world knows more about the contents of the Bible and history than the church does. I have had to intervene in many discussions where the church people were sharing erroneous information to people they were attempting to share their faith with. Those whom they were conversing with were actually eating their lunch and the believers were totally lost in how to respond.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I understand your point that churches are replete with persons who have scant knowledge of theology, church history, or even knowledge of the tenets of denomination/branch they are attending. Yet, I wonder how important it is in the big scheme of things? Not all of us are going to be theologians or church historians. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18: 3-4). Children have a simple faith. They don't understand it all. They may even get a few things wrong. Yet, they believe.

The disciples, themselves, spent a few years following Jesus around while trying to sort out who this guy was and what he was about. They followed Him anyway. The Church itself spent a few centuries weeding out heresies and having debates before coming together to hash out the Creed that defines correct belief about Jesus, the Trinity, and what it means to be Christian.

So, knowledge is important (and more important to many of us than others), yet I think simple faith and obedience are the pathway to discipleship. The rest is mere gravy, or value-added. Like the disciples, those persons in your church may not understand it all right now, but they will learn more as they stick around for a while.

 

[shaul]

I understand your point that churches are replete with persons who have scant knowledge of theology, church history, or even knowledge of the tenets of denomination/branch they are attending. Yet, I wonder how important it is in the big scheme of things? Not all of us are going to be theologians or church historians. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18: 3-4). Children have a simple faith. They don't understand it all. They may even get a few things wrong. Yet, they believe.

The disciples, themselves, spent a few years following Jesus around while trying to sort out who this guy was and what he was about. They followed Him anyway. The Church itself spent a few centuries weeding out heresies and having debates before coming together to hash out the Creed that defines correct belief about Jesus, the Trinity, and what it means to be Christian.

So, knowledge is important (and more important to many of us than others), yet I think simple faith and obedience are the pathway to discipleship. The rest is mere gravy, or value-added. Like the disciples, those persons in your church may not understand it all right now, but they will learn more as they stick around for a while.

I get what you are saying, but we will not be able to witness effectively if Christians are ignorant as to what they believe and why. We do not live in a generation that grew up in Church and many believe the Bible to be nothing more than a collection of fables. Arguing that the Bible says this and the Bible says that, only solidifies the opinion of many in the world that Christianity embraces ignorance as a means to explain the complex.

It is the Church and the Clergy's responsibility to educate or to delegate that education to see that the saints are equipped. That's not my opinion, it was also the opinion of Christ Himself (Matt. 5:19, Matt. 28:19-20) as well as St. Paul (2 Tim. 2:2, Phillipians 4:9, Cols. 3:16, Titus 2:1).

Also see Proverbs 1:7, Psalms 25:5, Acts 5:42, Hosea 4:6.

 

[seeking.IAM]

It is the Church and the Clergy's responsibility to educate or to delegate that education to see that the saints are equipped...

I agree. Your experience that the church has abdicated this has not been my experience. I've done church for a few decades longer than most among different bodies. Opportunities for learning were always there, although some chose to not take advantage. I'm not sure we can fault clergy for that. I think personal motivation to learn and dig into things is also a factor. Some of us want to know, so we read and study. We ask questions & seek answers. Others, not so much.

 

[shaul]

I agree. Your experience that the church has abdicated this has not been my experience. I've done church for a few decades longer than most among different bodies. Opportunities for learning were always there, although some chose to not take advantage. I'm not sure we can fault clergy for that. I think personal motivation to learn and dig into things is also a factor. Some of us want to know, so we read and study. We ask questions & seek answers. Others, not so much.

That has been part of my experience as well. However (unprompted)I have had clergy also state that they really do not need to learn outside the Bible (no history, no sitz im leben) as well. This was in private conversations.

All these same type minister's messages are practical in nature, not historical or expository in nature. I understand there are times for topical sermons, thematic sermons, etc. but there is very little actual content or context. Basically proof texting which almost always implies eisegesis not exegesis.

I realize there are differences in denominational emphasis, as well as geographical differences, as well as education of the clergy itself. However, my recent experience has been most alarming in the new location I find myself in.

I do appreciate immensely your feedback as that is what I am looking for. Shared experiences. Ευχαριστώ

 

[Strong in Him]

I wonder if others out there are as concerned as I about how much ignorance exist in the Churches today? I have recently moved and have been visiting many churches in order to find a real home. What I have encountered is a plethora of ignorance that exists among so many fervent yet misguided and ignorant believers as a result.

No, I am not saying that these believers are not sincere. I am not saying that they are intentionally ignorant of basic theology or understanding of basic theological or ecclesiastical history. I am saying they are not being taught even basic foundational doctrine and origins of the Church. It is quite alarming to me and concerns me greatly.

That might well be true and, to some extent, I share your concern.
However, the title of your thread is "the failure of the church in making disciples".
The person who is witnessing, or talking, to a non Christian does not have to have all the answers or be able to join in an academic debate.
The best testimony of all is, surely, "God loves you, Jesus is alive and I know this is true because he lives in me". Personal testimony is very powerful.
Then, if the non Christian expresses an interest, have a Gospel, a tract or a booklet ready - along with an invitation to church, or to a group like Alpha where they can find out more in a non threatening environment.
If they were to take a non Christian to church and find out that the preacher didn't know anything about the faith, that would be far more alarming, and I'd recommend getting out of there fast.

Forget, for a moment, how much they know academically; have they got hearts for Jesus and the Gospel? Do they go to church to learn, hear from God, be challenged etc, or just out of duty? Is a good service one where they have heard God speak, hearts have been changed and prayers answered, or is a good service one where they know all the hymns?
If you feel concerned by the general level of Bible knowledge in a church you have two options: join the church, lead a Bible study, write Christian articles/meditations, try to improve their knowledge and give a good grounding in Scripture and in doctrine, or tell the Minister that you won't be going back because the lack of knowledge, and level of ignorance, in his church is alarming..

 

[anetazo]

Because they broke away from the foundation of christ and formed denominations. These are apostates, hirelings. First Corinthians chapter 3 to document.
They allow heathen traditions and customs to infiltrate their churches. Psychology or trancendal meditation, it's from the east, it's heathen. Easter is pagan. It derived from ancient Iraq.
Zephniah chapter 1:4 CHERMARIMS, black robed priests, idolatry. These are heathen priests or hirelings. They teach tradition of men and false doctrine.

Hosea chapter 10:5. KEMARIM = priests of baal. 4:16 Dont go to Beth Aven. See the connection. Gods word isn't taught in many churches. Amos chapter 8 warns us of famine in end times. Pope is leader of catholic church. It's a denominations.
Another terminology for KEMARIM is KAMAR. Its idolatrous priests. Get the picture.
Bottom line. Don't go to Beth Aven !.

 

[Strong in Him]

Because they broke away from the foundation of christ and formed denominations. These are apostates, hirelings. First Corinthians chapter 3 to document.
They allow heathen traditions and customs to infiltrate their churches. Psychology or trancendal meditation, it's from the east, it's heathen. Easter is pagan. It derived from ancient Iraq.
Zephniah chapter 1:4 CHERMARIMS, black robed priests, idolatry. These are heathen priests or hirelings. They teach tradition of men and false doctrine.

Much as I dislike denominations, they are not apostate and hirelings.
Who are the "they" who allow heathen traditions, practice transcendental meditation and teach false doctrine? What evidence do you have for that?

Easter is about celebrating the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's not pagan, it's one of the central tenets of the Christian faith.
My experience is that Christian churches do not worship the Easter bunny and spend all their time eating chocolate.

 

[anetazo]

Passover is about resurrection of Jesus. Corinthians chapter 5, Christ became our Passover. Its holy communion, Christian people take small piece of bread and tiny cup of wine/juice in remembrance of christ crucifixion. Documentation, mark 14:22 to 14:25. Luke chapter 22:15 to document. Easter is pagan holiday. Some churches have replaced Passover for Easter. I witnessed one church in another city , engaging in Easter.

First samuel 7:4. Then the children of Israel did put away Baal and Astaroth, and served the Lord. Judges 2:13. And they for sook the Lord, and served baal and Ashtaroth. The canaanites came from ancient Iraq, descendants of Ham, genesis chapter 12. Phoenician goddess Astare, of Babylon Ishtar. In ancient Iraq, Astare was the fertility goddess of agriculture. Today its called Easter. Its idolatry. King Solomon followed after Astharoth and baal, heathen women turned Solomon heart away from God, first kings chapter 11:6 to 11:9.

Proverbs chapter 5:;3. For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil. ZUR in Hebrew means = Apostates . It applys to heathen religion. The apostates are the ones who developed denominations. Proverbs chapter 5:20. And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger. Zur in Hebrew means = apostate or stranger. Some of these denominations have counselors who practice psychology. Psychology came from India. This is far east. Yes??. Trancendal meditation comes from Nepal. Again, the far east. Some churches have indoctrinated it into thier services. Proverbs chapter 6:1. My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with stranger. 6:2. Thou are snared with the words of thy mouth, Thou art taken with the words of thy mouth. Traditions of men sound right to someone who lacks knowledge of Gods word. Some churches say, are you saved? Then the person allows them to work them over. Some people won't think for themselves. 6:3. Do this now my son, and deliver Thyself, When thou art come into hand of thy friend;
Sound doctrine, God's truth is the only rescue. Traditions of men and false doctrine is Bondage. These apostates put stumbling block before the congregation. After 20 years, the congregation is still in diapers, on milk. Where's the spirtual growth??.
Hosea chapter 12:1. Ephraim feeds on the wind, and follows after the East Wind: Where does east wind come from. Orient, middle east. How about Egypt or India or China or Nepal. These heathen traditions and customs are picked up by some churches. Isaiah chapter 30:1. Woe to the rebellious children says the Lord, that take counsel, but not of Me; I'm not knocking churches down.

Some denominations teach false doctrine. People will be hard pressed to hear sound doctrine. The famine of the end times is hearing God's truth, Amos chapter 8. Colossians chapter 2:8. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy, and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after rudiments of the world, and not after christ. The apostates are those who caused divisions and development of denominations. I documented this. I thoroughly explained this. I'm moving on to other threads. Peace.

 

[anetazo]

Much as I dislike denominations, they are not apostate and hirelings.
Who are the "they" who allow heathen traditions, practice transcendental meditation and teach false doctrine? What evidence do you have for that?

Easter is about celebrating the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. That's not pagan, it's one of the central tenets of the Christian faith.
My experience is that Christian churches do not worship the Easter bunny and spend all their time eating chocolate.

Hello friend
I posted my reply. I documented it and gave Hebrew language to support it. Peace.

 

[Strong in Him]

Passover is about resurrection of Jesus. Corinthians chapter 5, Christ became our Passover. Its holy communion, Christian people take small piece of bread and tiny cup of wine/juice in remembrance of christ crucifixion.

"Do this in memory of me", is Communion; yes.
Jesus celebrating one final Passover meal with his disciples - Maundy Thursday; before the crucifixion which was on what we call Good Friday. Those are in Holy Week, pre crucifixion.
Resurrection day = empty tomb = Easter Sunday.

Some churches have replaced Passover for Easter.

Some churches may not observe Maundy Thursday, that doesn't mean they've "replaced it with Easter". Last Supper and empty tomb; two different events, 2 days apart.

First samuel 7:4. Then the children of Israel did put away Baal and Astaroth, and served the Lord. Judges 2:13. And they for sook the Lord, and served baal and Ashtaroth. The canaanites came from ancient Iraq, descendants of Ham, genesis chapter 12. Phoenician goddess Astare, of Babylon Ishtar. In ancient Iraq, Astare was the fertility goddess of agriculture. Today its called Easter. Its idolatry.

Something is only idolatry if idols are worshipped.
We worship the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who raised his Son from the dead - how about you?

Proverbs chapter 5:;3. For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil. ZUR in Hebrew means = Apostates . It applys to heathen religion. The apostates are the ones who developed denominations.

In your view.
Calling John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, William, Booth and others, "apostates" is both laughable and uncharitable.

Some of these denominations have counselors who practice psychology.

Psychology means study of the human mind.
Psyche is a Greek words, I'm told, and means human mind, spirit or soul.
Yes, the word "Psychic" comes from it, and mind reading and stuff is not allowed, or good for, Christians. That doesn't mean that Psychology is bad. Some police and detectives talk about studying the psychology of a crime. That means, they are trying to work out the killer's motive, if he/she works to a pattern and what they might do next.
If you've ever been upset, angry, disturbed at someone's behaviour and have wondered what makes them "tick" or why they do what they do - you are into the realm of psychology.
Of course counsellors study it - understanding human thinking and behaviour is part of the training to do what they do.

Sound doctrine, God's truth is the only rescue.

Jesus IS Truth. I don't think you'd find a Christian church which disagrees with that.

These apostates put stumbling block before the congregation. After 20 years, the congregation is still in diapers, on milk. Where's the spirtual growth??

Where's your evidence??

Some denominations teach false doctrine.

Which ones, and what are they teaching?

I documented this. I thoroughly explained this. I'm moving on to other threads. Peace.

You might have explained it, that doesn't mean it's correct.

I don't expect an answer from you. I have learned that you seem to write threads and then, if anyone challenges them, presents Scripture to the contrary or asks you to explain, you say "I'm not going to argue; I'm moving on."
But at least this may help other people.

 

[Richard.20.12]

I wonder if others out there are as concerned as I about how much ignorance exist in the Churches today? I have recently moved and have been visiting many churches in order to find a real home. What I have encountered is a plethora of ignorance that exists among so many fervent yet misguided and ignorant believers as a result.

No, I am not saying that these believers are not sincere. I am not saying that they are intentionally ignorant of basic theology or understanding of basic theological or ecclesiastical history. I am saying they are not being taught even basic foundational doctrine and origins of the Church. It is quite alarming to me and concerns me greatly.

They do not even know very basic Judaic foundations from which the church came, how the Bible came to be, or any church history whatsoever. They know little to nothing about the difference of what a Gospel is verses an Epistle, outside of content. They lack any historical understanding or the purpose of why the authors of the Epistles were being written or to whom. Even worst, there seems to be a general attitude of "I know enough and if God wants me to know more, he will tell me." I have even heard modern Christians says that the first century church were fervent in reading the Bible everyday and that is why they were not swayed by false teachings. One church member actually believed that the original Bible was the King James version.

Have others had similar experiences? It really tugs at my heart and really concerns me. I am reminded of Hosea 4:6 where we read:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. (NASV).

Original Hebrew:

נִדְמ֥וּ עַמִּ֖י מִבְּלִ֣י הַדָּ֑עַת כִּ֣י אַתָּ֞ה הַדַּ֣עַת מָאַ֗סְתָּ וְאֶמְאָֽסְךָ֙ (כתיב וְאֶמְאָֽסְאךָ֙) מִכַּהֵ֣ן לִ֔י וַתִּשְׁכַּח֙ תּוֹרַ֣ת אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֶשְׁכַּ֥ח בָּנֶ֖יךָ גַּם־אָֽנִי

Would love to hear from others (including clergy). I would love to know what approaches others are taking in order to educate and train. We cannot possible win the world, when we cannot even defend what we believe and why.

It seems the world knows more about the contents of the Bible and history than the church does. I have had to intervene in many discussions where the church people were sharing erroneous information to people they were attempting to share their faith with. Those whom they were conversing with were actually eating their lunch and the believers were totally lost in how to respond.

You raise some very sobering points we are all guilty of and express it very well. Because every person on the planet could spend more time with God. The world is one very distracting place. So what you see missing is more of an active participation in the search for Biblical understanding, not just sitting blankly in a pew every week, doing pew penance.

As for the authors of the books of the Bible I think we all can agree that the Bible was God inspired so authorship has little importance. Probably why it's not clear who wrote all the books of the Bible. God wanted us to focus on the message, not the messenger. Otherwise He would have told us who wrote what. That wouldn't have been difficult! The fact that we're not told tells us much. It says "don't worry about it".

What I find very useful is to try to better understand the customs of life back then. Because with that knowledge then the Bible makes a lot more relevance to us today. This is where history can be invaluable because culture and customs change hugely over time. And this is vital when reading the Bible. It also makes the stories far more vivid. They come alive in our minds when we can visualize how things were back then, along with their struggles and challenges, which must have been enormous at times.

 

[Richard.20.12]

I understand your point that churches are replete with persons who have scant knowledge of theology, church history, or even knowledge of the tenets of denomination/branch they are attending. Yet, I wonder how important it is in the big scheme of things? Not all of us are going to be theologians or church historians. Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18: 3-4). Children have a simple faith. They don't understand it all. They may even get a few things wrong. Yet, they believe.

The disciples, themselves, spent a few years following Jesus around while trying to sort out who this guy was and what he was about. They followed Him anyway. The Church itself spent a few centuries weeding out heresies and having debates before coming together to hash out the Creed that defines correct belief about Jesus, the Trinity, and what it means to be Christian.

So, knowledge is important (and more important to many of us than others), yet I think simple faith and obedience are the pathway to discipleship. The rest is mere gravy, or value-added. Like the disciples, those persons in your church may not understand it all right now, but they will learn more as they stick around for a while.

Good points - especially the reference to the purity of a child's faith. But I think he feels that we can have a purer faith with better understanding. Children are limited by their brain growth but we're not so we have no excuse not to broaden our horizons. And really, why not pursue historical knowledge of Biblical times more? Think of when you go to Israel. Imagine the depth of your experience with a thorough knowledge of scripture compared to someone who occasionally glances through the New Testament when they want something fixed in their life. Those two people will have dramatically different experiences in the Holy Land. He's right. We should put in the work. The rewards are priceless. You can't put a price on Biblical understanding. Good thing it's free!

 

[Richard.20.12]

"We do not live in a generation that grew up in Church and many believe the Bible to be nothing more than a collection of fables."

This is so very true. The mission field is vastly different from just one generation ago. Many, many have strayed. It used to be most people knew the basics. You had common ground there. But now it's so very different. It's like you have to start from scratch. Like you're talking to someone in an intensely Muslim country or in the middle of India. It's tough. But what unites us is history. We all know a little about history. This can be the bridge I think that can help us get the Word across. Or at the very least it can help.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I wonder if others out there are as concerned as I about how much ignorance exist in the Churches today? I have recently moved and have been visiting many churches in order to find a real home. What I have encountered is a plethora of ignorance that exists among so many fervent yet misguided and ignorant believers as a result.

No, I am not saying that these believers are not sincere. I am not saying that they are intentionally ignorant of basic theology or understanding of basic theological or ecclesiastical history. I am saying they are not being taught even basic foundational doctrine and origins of the Church. It is quite alarming to me and concerns me greatly.

They do not even know very basic Judaic foundations from which the church came, how the Bible came to be, or any church history whatsoever. They know little to nothing about the difference of what a Gospel is verses an Epistle, outside of content. They lack any historical understanding or the purpose of why the authors of the Epistles were being written or to whom. Even worst, there seems to be a general attitude of "I know enough and if God wants me to know more, he will tell me." I have even heard modern Christians says that the first century church were fervent in reading the Bible everyday and that is why they were not swayed by false teachings. One church member actually believed that the original Bible was the King James version.

Have others had similar experiences? It really tugs at my heart and really concerns me. I am reminded of Hosea 4:6 where we read:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. (NASV).

Original Hebrew:

נִדְמ֥וּ עַמִּ֖י מִבְּלִ֣י הַדָּ֑עַת כִּ֣י אַתָּ֞ה הַדַּ֣עַת מָאַ֗סְתָּ וְאֶמְאָֽסְךָ֙ (כתיב וְאֶמְאָֽסְאךָ֙) מִכַּהֵ֣ן לִ֔י וַתִּשְׁכַּח֙ תּוֹרַ֣ת אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֶשְׁכַּ֥ח בָּנֶ֖יךָ גַּם־אָֽנִי

Would love to hear from others (including clergy). I would love to know what approaches others are taking in order to educate and train. We cannot possible win the world, when we cannot even defend what we believe and why.

It seems the world knows more about the contents of the Bible and history than the church does. I have had to intervene in many discussions where the church people were sharing erroneous information to people they were attempting to share their faith with. Those whom they were conversing with were actually eating their lunch and the believers were totally lost in how to respond.

Where does one begin?

I have been reading about St Francis and his mission to the Muslims, the Muslim Sultan of Palestine, Syria, and Egypt: al-Malik al-Kamil.

Imagine that. Not only not Christian but Anti-Christian. Where does one begin?
His strategy was not to argue and not to condescend, But to share his joy and in the process share his faith and find common ground.

These days at least half of the population have no religious preference or church. Not mush catechesis and those who do pretty much reject it.

WE need to pray for more zeal, more fire, more Holy Spirt to inspire us and show us how best to evangelize.

Living the everyday moments of our lives with faith, hope, and love is the most effective way to share our faith with others. This witness is what is needed for reaching our families, friends, neighbors, and colleagues in order to transform culture. Be willing to listen to other peoples’ stories and questions about the Church without judgment.

It is up to the Holy Spirit then to inspire others to have the initiative to ask questions and search for answers. We can't do that for them.

 

[Richard.20.12]

Maybe one of the biggest problems is "the church". What church is correct? An unbeliever can always point to failures in any organization and say "I would NEVER want to be part of THAT group!" and one can see their point.

I believe it works much better if we focus on the Bible. That's all we have. There is no "Catholic" or "Protestant" or anyone else in the Bible. You're a believer or you aren't. What could be more simple? Get to the core. Ignore all the fluff. Focus only on what the Bible says. Question your leaders. Compare what they say and advise to what scripture says. If it's not in the Bible it's merely their opinion which can be used or ignored. They're human. They make LOTS of mistakes.

It takes more time, I know. But it's the only thing that keeps false teachers in check. And the only thing that keeps you from being deceived. And there is a whole lot of deception out there. It's worse now then ever.

False teachers prey on what we want. Because it works. Because it gives them leverage over you. What do most people want? They want instant solutions. They want the easy way.

They may have eaten their way to bad health (about 95% of middle class and above Christians by middle age are in very poor health because of processed food and inactivity).

They may have spent their way through bad loans to bankruptcy so their family's finances are in jeopardy.

They may worry about the future. Who doesn't? It's rather human, isn't it?

So they promise what? Miracles for health problems, financial abundance and prophecy. Health, money and knowledge of the future. Sounds dreamy, doesn't it? By dangling those things in front of their congregation they entice them to give. The irony is these kinds of leaders always lead extravagant lifestyles. Yet I don't recall anyone in the New Testament of any prominence that was wealthy. Not a one. Jesus was homeless and didn't even have a change of clothes. You can't get more minimalistic than that! Holding on to a lot of wealth requires management and management requires lots of time. God wants us to focus on higher things than managing our Earthly stuff.

Yet all these answers are in the Bible. Note Jesus said "WHEN ye fast". How many of us regularly fast? I can guarantee you that after you fast for a few days that junk food will really feel horrible on your stomach. You'll want pure food. You'll have more energy afterwards so you'll be inclined to be far more active. You'll feel so much younger if your digestive system isn't burdened by processed food sludge. The Bible is full of examples of people doing surprisingly physical things in their old age. How many 90 year old's in modern times could walk all day for instance? 1 in 10,000? Back then they all had to or they got left behind. If you have to you find a way.

The Bible gives so many examples of good financial stewardship. And the first is that money is not ours. We are stewards, caretakers only. So we don't mind so much when values dip and unforseen events occur as they're bound to. And we don't spend foolishly when we suddenly have more. We are living on a higher plain where money is not so instrinsic to our existence because we always have a buffer, we always have savings to fall back on because we have never taken out high interest loans which can bankrupt anyone and in of themselves don't inspire financial control. The only loan we should ever take out is a low interest mortgage and that should be paid off fast. Once the home is paid for it gives a peace of mind that few financial issues can match. The fastest way to pay off that mortgage is to rent out MOST of the house to other people so you are only occupying a small percentage of the total. Yet almost no one does it. If most 1st home buyers did it we would completely revolutionize the next generation's financial security. Their living costs would plummet without a mortgage. Their rental income could allow them to not have to work for the rest of their life. For many that could be accomplished by the time they are in their mid to late 20's. Astounding, isn't it? No they won't buy a new car with 20+% interest rates. They won't buy lots of new clothes. They won't buy depreciating assets. They'll live at home saving their money until they have that down payment. That's just math. If we don't do illogical things life is so easy. Money is so much easier to manage. So then we can focus on what really matters. Getting close to the Lord and helping others to do the same.

As for prophecy and worrying about the future, what does Jesus say? He advises us that since we can't change the past there's no point in worrying about that and as we can't control the future there's no point in worrying about that either. (That doesn't mean we shouldn't learn from the past and prepare for the future!) Jesus helps us focus on the now. Just the daily battle agaInst the evil we'll face each day. If we do that our future will be pretty good. No prophets needed. Because in Heaven do you think it will matter much if we lived 20 years or 100? We'll be so glad we're there in paradise we'll be focused on the glory of it all. This is one of the reasons the argument that "a loving God wouldn't let bad things happen to good people" is so short sighted. Bad things have to happen to everyone once in a while in a free world. That's what a free world entails. If He intervened all the time we wouldn't have much freedom of choice! Both good and bad have to occur. You can't have freedom otherwise.

 

[shaul]

I agree. Your experience that the church has abdicated this has not been my experience. I've done church for a few decades longer than most among different bodies. Opportunities for learning were always there, although some chose to not take advantage. I'm not sure we can fault clergy for that. I think personal motivation to learn and dig into things is also a factor. Some of us want to know, so we read and study. We ask questions & seek answers. Others, not so much.

Everyone's experience is different. I am not saying that there are not good studious clergy in many churches. Neither am I saying that some churches do not do their best to educate and disciple their congregations.

But I have recently encountered an alarming number of ministers who actually hold to the belief that if God wants them to learn something, He himself will teach them.

Needless to say these ministers don't know much to begin with and my prayer is that God will show them he has given many gifts to the church and they should use these resources ardently and wisely.

 

[Marilyn C]

I wonder if others out there are as concerned as I about how much ignorance exist in the Churches today? I have recently moved and have been visiting many churches in order to find a real home. What I have encountered is a plethora of ignorance that exists among so many fervent yet misguided and ignorant believers as a result.

No, I am not saying that these believers are not sincere. I am not saying that they are intentionally ignorant of basic theology or understanding of basic theological or ecclesiastical history. I am saying they are not being taught even basic foundational doctrine and origins of the Church. It is quite alarming to me and concerns me greatly.

They do not even know very basic Judaic foundations from which the church came, how the Bible came to be, or any church history whatsoever. They know little to nothing about the difference of what a Gospel is verses an Epistle, outside of content. They lack any historical understanding or the purpose of why the authors of the Epistles were being written or to whom. Even worst, there seems to be a general attitude of "I know enough and if God wants me to know more, he will tell me." I have even heard modern Christians says that the first century church were fervent in reading the Bible everyday and that is why they were not swayed by false teachings. One church member actually believed that the original Bible was the King James version.

Have others had similar experiences? It really tugs at my heart and really concerns me. I am reminded of Hosea 4:6 where we read:

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children. (NASV).

Original Hebrew:

נִדְמ֥וּ עַמִּ֖י מִבְּלִ֣י הַדָּ֑עַת כִּ֣י אַתָּ֞ה הַדַּ֣עַת מָאַ֗סְתָּ וְאֶמְאָֽסְךָ֙ (כתיב וְאֶמְאָֽסְאךָ֙) מִכַּהֵ֣ן לִ֔י וַתִּשְׁכַּח֙ תּוֹרַ֣ת אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֶשְׁכַּ֥ח בָּנֶ֖יךָ גַּם־אָֽנִי

Would love to hear from others (including clergy). I would love to know what approaches others are taking in order to educate and train. We cannot possible win the world, when we cannot even defend what we believe and why.

It seems the world knows more about the contents of the Bible and history than the church does. I have had to intervene in many discussions where the church people were sharing erroneous information to people they were attempting to share their faith with. Those whom they were conversing with were actually eating their lunch and the believers were totally lost in how to respond.

Hi shaul,

Good observation. However, we are talking about man`s system there and not the Body of Christ. You will only see man and his desire for power and control in most public meetings of religious organizations. To find who is discipling you would have to see with the Lord`s omnipresent eyes throughout the whole world where daily, believers are making disciples.

In our relational network of believers in our area I can tell you some of whom are discipling. And yes, there are plenty I don`t know about. We really can only see ourselves and those around how they are discipling and help and encourage each other in that function.

 

[shaul]

Marilyn C,​

Thank you for your response. I am not saying there are not good churches out there who are actually mentoring and teaching, but I have found these to be few and far between.

I can provide many examples, but perhaps one question asked of most Christians can provide the answer. Who owned a personal Bible before 1600 A.D.? A follow up question might be if they did own a personal Bible, what version was it?

This one should be really easy. But you would not believe the answers I get when I asked these two questions of the average Christian believer. It only goes downhill from here. I would not expect the recent Christian to know this answer. But even among those who have been Christians for 20 plus years do not know the answer.

Some say I am nickpicking. But trust me, those that detract and sway people away from Christianity, know the answer. If we are not equipped to be witnesses in this world, what is our purpose as a Church organization?

 

[seeking.IAM]

Who owned a personal Bible before 1600 A.D.?

What was the literacy rate in 1600 AD? Gutenberg's printing press dates to 1440. Ownership requires ready availability of text and the ability to read, does it not?

If we are not equipped to be witnesses in this world, what is our purpose as a Church organization?

Common worship.