Romans 13

[throughfiierytrial]

Why do you guys always bring American slavery into this? And no, that is not what the bible says. Read Lev 25:44-46. The fact is even if they were treated the very best they are still slaves and owned as property by other people and God allowed for that.

Why could God not have provided for His people without allowing for an immoral system to take care of them?

Nope, please read your bible. There were slaves taken against their will and slaves forever. Read Lev 25:44-46.

But can you please respond to my assertion that even if the slaves were treated well does not mean that people owning people as property is moral.

NT says do not become slaves of men...I Corinthians 7:23; so we are clear on that as stated above.
OT is seems condoned, but also seems that among Isrealites that it was frowned upon also to become a slave...perhaps not managing money properly; though at times it was due to misfortune and God provided a way out in the Jubilee.
We know that Isrealites were allowed to take slaves from among the foreigners added to their numbers, but it was a process to integrate them or marry such a woman (after purification.)
Some became slaves for life by choice and God commanded an awl be driven into their ear...condoned if they loved their masters. (Deuteronomy 15:17)
The faithful wavered. At times they had hardened and darkened hearts for which Moses in the instance of divorce alone here, it is clearly stated, compensated fo by issuing certificates of divorce, that is OT to NT...
(Matthew 19:8)

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

NT says do not become slaves of men...I Corinthians 7:23; so we are clear on that as stated above.

Here is the actual verse in context:

Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. 1 Cor 7:17-24

It seems that the verse is saying don't become a slave but if you are a slave and cannot gain your freedom to stay a slave. Nowhere does it say slavery is wrong and all masters should free their slaves.

OT is seems condoned, but also seems that among Isrealites that it was frowned upon also to become a slave...perhaps not managing money properly; though at times it was due to misfortune and God provided a way out in the Jubilee.

So what. Just because they can be released does not make slavery moral. Also, not all slaves were freed at Jubilee.

We know that Isrealites were allowed to take slaves from among the foreigners added to their numbers, but it was a process to integrate them or marry such a woman (after purification.)

Did they have a choice? You seem to think that the ends justifies the means. You are trying to defend biblical slavery by claiming that taking women by force and making them marry is somehow a moral justification. It is not, it is all immoral.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Here is the actual verse in context:

Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. 1 Cor 7:17-24

It seems that the verse is saying don't become a slave but if you are a slave and cannot gain your freedom to stay a slave. Nowhere does it say slavery is wrong and all masters should free their slaves.

So what. Just because they can be released does not make slavery moral. Also, not all slaves were freed at Jubilee.

Did they have a choice? You seem to think that the ends justifies the means. You are trying to defend biblical slavery by claiming that taking women by force and making them marry is somehow a moral justification. It is not, it is all immoral.

You quoted...
Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. 1 Cor 7:17-24

One can see from all these verses...which I certainly knew about and understand...that slavery was to end...mankind/believers were not to make themselves slaves and were to seek release from slavery....so the practice would die out normally and gradually...at least among believers. I am NOT defending the practice at all!
God provided for divorce through Moses and He permitted slavery...there was indeed a hardening of the hearts of men and the LAW could neither prevent or atone for it.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

You quoted...
Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts. Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.
Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so. For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them. 1 Cor 7:17-24

One can see from all these verses...which I certainly knew about and understand...that slavery was to end...mankind/believers were not to make themselves slaves and were to seek release from slavery....so the practice would die out normally and gradually...at least among believers. I am NOT defending the practice at all!
God provided for divorce through Moses and He permitted slavery...there was indeed a hardening of the hearts of men and the LAW could neither prevent or atone for it.

Ok, I think it was immoral for God to allow slavery to continue. Divorce and being a slave are not comparable morally. Allowing divorce can be a good thing, allowing slavery was never a good thing.

It also never died out gradually. It was perpetuated by Christians as recent as the 17-1800's.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Ok, I think it was immoral for God to allow slavery to continue. Divorce and being a slave are not comparable morally. Allowing divorce can be a good thing, allowing slavery was never a good thing.

It also never died out gradually. It was perpetuated by Christians as recent as the 17-1800's.

People do not always obey God's commands...you know this.
Divorce...God Hates...Malachi 2:16...notice...even though condoned, by Isreal...hated by God.
Slavery is sometimes initiated by the slave to be...esp. originally...OT

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Ok, I think it was immoral for God to allow slavery to continue. Divorce and being a slave are not comparable morally. Allowing divorce can be a good thing, allowing slavery was never a good thing.

It also never died out gradually. It was perpetuated by Christians as recent as the 17-1800's.

And btw, it is a sin for you to judge God...you, born in sin and prone to sin!
James 2:10 !!

 

[Tinker Grey]

And btw, it is a sin for you to judge God...you, born in sin and prone to sin!
James 2:10 !!

The Bible says God say "taste and see that the lord is good". What is that but judgement? And, if I come to the conclusion that there is either no taste or bad taste? Well, he asked.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

People do not always obey God's commands...you know this.
Divorce...God Hates...Malachi 2:16...notice...even though condoned, by Isreal...hated by God.
Slavery is sometimes initiated by the slave to be...esp. originally...OT

Then why did God tell people to not murder or not steal or not covet etc. if He knew not all would listen?

Lets say my kid beats up other kids to take their lunch money. Would it be moral of me to tell my kid how best to take other kids money without beating them up instead of telling him it is wrong and why it is wrong? This is what the God did on the bible. Instead of telling us humans that slavery was wrong He made regulations for it. Notice it says "do not be slaves of men" it does not say anywhere "Do not make slaves of others humans".

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

And btw, it is a sin for you to judge God...you, born in sin and prone to sin!
James 2:10 !!

Well if God wants to stop me from judging Him He can do that anytime. Until then, unless He can explain why His stance on slavery is moral, I will judge his actions as immoral.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Then why did God tell people to not murder or not steal or not covet etc. if He knew not all would listen?

Lets say my kid beats up other kids to take their lunch money. Would it be moral of me to tell my kid how best to take other kids money without beating them up instead of telling him it is wrong and why it is wrong? This is what the God did on the bible. Instead of telling us humans that slavery was wrong He made regulations for it. Notice it says "do not be slaves of men" it does not say anywhere "Do not make slaves of others humans".

Didn't know you were an atheist when I started posting to you...now I know why your posts were so shocking to me! I'm done!

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Didn't know you were an atheist when I started posting to you...now I know why your posts were so shocking to me! I'm done!

Are we atheists not worth talking to?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Didn't know you were an atheist when I started posting to you...now I know why your posts were so shocking to me! I'm done!

Are we atheists not worth talking to?

I bet Jesus would have a glass of wine with us.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Didn't know you were an atheist when I started posting to you...now I know why your posts were so shocking to me! I'm done!

Are we atheists not worth talking to?

The implication that being an atheist makes one morally deficient is disturbing. Also, Throughfireytrial appears not to be familiar with the purpose of this forum. @throughfireytrial , this a specifically designed as a place for atheists and other nonbelievers to interact with Christians.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

The implication that being an atheist makes one morally deficient is disturbing. Also, Throughfireytrial appears not to be familiar with the purpose of this forum. @throughfireytrial , this a specifically designed as a place for atheists and other nonbelievers to interact with Christians.

The posters I was interacting with were calling God immoral which is probably banned speech from this forum...I do not know.
It is wise to speak only what is edifying.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

The posters I was interacting with were calling God immoral which is probably banned speech from this forum...I do not know.
It is wise to speak only what is edifying.

Just to be clear I was not calling God immoral. I was saying some of His actions were immoral. The God of the bible does moral actions and immoral actions just like us humans.

 

[Ed1wolf]

ed: Some slaves are slaves forever because many will die before the year of Jubilee. But actually if your master treated you badly, then you can go to a sanctuary city and he cannot come after you. So your slavery would end. This is very different from American slavery.

cw: Why do you guys always bring American slavery into this?

Because many people consider chattel slavery the most immoral form.

cw: And no, that is not what the bible says. Read Lev 25:44-46. The fact is even if they were treated the very best they are still slaves and owned as property by other people and God allowed for that.

No, they were not treated like property. Property has no role in the buying process, biblical servitude is voluntary as I demonstrated earlier. They are selling themselves, property cannot sell itself. Also, if you killed someones cow, which was considered property, then you just paid a fine. But if you killed someones slave, you were executed for murder, you cannot murder property. They were recognized as human beings created in the image of God.

ed: Since there was no social security or welfare in ancient times, voluntarily selling your self and family actually saved many lives in ancient Israel during times of economic stress. That is why God did not ban it completely.

cw: Why could God not have provided for His people without allowing for an immoral system to take care of them?

Selling yourself into servitude during economic collapse is not immoral. And remember if the master did so much as knocking a tooth out, they could be freed.

ed: Though it is certainly not His ideal as seen in His freeing the slaves from Egypt. It is actually more like indentured servitude and in fact that is how the Puritans interpreted in early America.

cw: Nope, please read your bible. There were slaves taken against their will and slaves forever. Read Lev 25:44-46.

No, that would violate Exodus 21:16, Exodus 22:21-24 and Leviticus 19:33-34.

cw: But can you please respond to my assertion that even if the slaves were treated well does not mean that people owning people as property is moral.

See above where I show that they are not treated as property.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Because many people consider chattel slavery the most immoral form.

So what? Owning others as property even if they are treated well is immoral.

No, they were not treated like property. Property has no role in the buying process, biblical servitude is voluntary as I demonstrated earlier. They are selling themselves, property cannot sell itself. Also, if you killed someones cow, which was considered property, then you just paid a fine. But if you killed someones slave, you were executed for murder, you cannot murder property. They were recognized as human beings created in the image of God.

Nope.

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 24:44-46

 

[InterestedAtheist]

‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 24:44-46

The last part of which, @Ed1wolf , make it quite clear that the verses you are quoting are speaking either of Israelite slaves or of foreign non-slaves.

 

[Ed1wolf]

So what? Owning others as property even if they are treated well is immoral.


Nope.

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly. Lev 24:44-46

I think I demonstrated above they do not have the characteristics of property. The KJV translates property as possession in this passage which is actually a better translation. Which is unusual for the KJV, usually it is not the best translation. The term possession can be understood as a privilege. It is a privilege for them to become part of the masters family during this time of economic collapse, ie they are rescued from probably starvation and death. Just as many old hymns and the Bible refer to our conversion to Christ as getting heaven as our possession.

 

[Ed1wolf]

The last part of which, @Ed1wolf , make it quite clear that the verses you are quoting are speaking either of Israelite slaves or of foreign non-slaves.

Yes, foreign non-slaves that sell themselves as slaves during economic collapse.