POLL: Did the ancient Hebrews believe that the earth was flat?

[BeyondET]

Balls are not compass inscribed, nor the shape of a stamp, as described in proverbs and Job verses noted in the original post.

Of course not, stamps weren't even invented when proverbs and job was written.

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course not, stamps weren't even invented when proverbs and job was written.

Actually, stamps were around back then.

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‭-‬5‬ ‭NRSV
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. [5] Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
[14] It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.

And both Job and proverbs note that the circumference described dome is in the shape of a circle, as drawn with a compass.

‭‭Job‬ ‭26:10‬ ‭NRSV
[10] He has described a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:27‬ ‭NRSV
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:22‬ ‭NRSV
[22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them like a tent to live in,

tents of course also rest on flat surfaces. The face of the deep is also flat, that's why it's called a "face" of the deep. Faces are flat. And the circle drawn upon the face of the deep, is likewise flat. Etc.

 

[Job 33:6]

Actually, stamps were around back then.

View attachment 341604View attachment 341605View attachment 341606View attachment 341607

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‭-‬5‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. [5] Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
[14] It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.

And both Job and proverbs note that the circumference described dome is in the shape of a circle, as drawn with a compass.

‭‭Job‬ ‭26:10‬ ‭NRSV
[10] He has described a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:27‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:22‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them like a tent to live in,

tents of course also rest on flat surfaces. Etc.

View attachment 341608

And here's another image that is helpful with respect to understanding compass inscribed circle of the earth in the Bible. A compass is a tool used for two-dimensional drawings.

 

[Job 33:6]

Of course not, stamps weren't even invented when proverbs and job was written.

And we can also look at the verses right before Jon 38:14 for additional clarity as well:

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[13] so that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it? [14] It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.

Verse 13 is describing earth with skirts. Kind of like a carpet, laid out on the floor with skirts along the edges. And the carpet can be shaken to get dust out. Here the earth can be shaken to remove the wicked.

That's what the verse is describing, right before it talks about earth having the shape of clay under a seal, which is flat. For reference, see Nehemiah 5:13.

 

[BeyondET]

Actually, stamps were around back then.

View attachment 341604View attachment 341605View attachment 341606View attachment 341607

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:4‭-‬5‬ ‭NRSV
[4] “Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. [5] Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
[14] It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.

And both Job and proverbs note that the circumference described dome is in the shape of a circle, as drawn with a compass.

‭‭Job‬ ‭26:10‬ ‭NRSV
[10] He has described a circle on the face of the waters, at the boundary between light and darkness.

‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:27‬ ‭NRSV
[27] When he established the heavens, I was there; when he drew a circle on the face of the deep,

‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭40:22‬ ‭NRSV
[22] It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain and spreads them like a tent to live in,

tents of course also rest on flat surfaces. The face of the deep is also flat, that's why it's called a "face" of the deep. Faces are flat. And the circle drawn upon the face of the deep, is likewise flat. Etc.

View attachment 341608

You can't have 6 months of nights and 6 months of days in the poles on a flat earth. It's that's simple.

 

[BeyondET]

And we can also look at the verses right before Jon 38:14 for additional clarity as well:

‭‭Job‬ ‭38:13‭-‬14‬ ‭NRSVUE‬‬
[13] so that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it? [14] It is changed like clay under the seal, and it is dyed like a garment.

Verse 13 is describing earth with skirts. Kind of like a carpet, laid out on the floor with skirts along the edges. And the carpet can be shaken to get dust out. Here the earth can be shaken to remove the wicked.

That's what the verse is describing, right before it talks about earth having the shape of clay under a seal, which is flat. For reference, see Nehemiah 5:13.

Can't even have days and nights on a flat earth. You would be able to see the sun and moon across a flat circle.

 

[Job 33:6]

You can't have 6 months of nights and 6 months of days in the poles on a flat earth. It's that's simple.

What?

 

[Job 33:6]

Can't even have days and nights on a flat earth. You would be able to see the sun and moon across a flat circle.

Ancient Jews would debate on if the sun went under the earth or if the sun went behind the solid sky dome.

I'm not saying that I believe earth is flat. Rather I'm simply pointing out that 3,000 years ago, the ancient isrealites and Biblical authors assumed it to be so.

The important detail you're missing here is that the Bible is not a science textbook. If the Biblical authors got a few science details incorrect along the way, you are not obligated to believe their opinion. Just like you aren't obligated to support slavery just because King Solomon thought it was ok.

 

[BeyondET]

What?

Is that your way of avoiding the question about the arctic and antarctic zones?

 

[BeyondET]

Ancient Jews would debate on if the sun went under the earth or if the sun went behind the solid sky dome.

I'm not saying that I believe earth is flat. Rather I'm simply pointing out that 3,000 years ago, the ancient isrealites and Biblical authors assumed it to be so.

The important detail you're missing here is that the Bible is not a science textbook. If the Biblical authors got a few science details incorrect along the way, you are not obligated to believe their opinion. Just like you aren't obligated to support slavery just because King Solomon thought it was ok.

It wouldn't be solid if the sun went through the sky dome and positioned behind it.

Pretty much everybody knows the bible isn't a science textbook nor have i have suggested that it is.

I will agree ancient civilization didn't know the earth was a sphere up to early A.D even.

 

[Job 33:6]

Is that your way of avoiding the question about the arctic and antarctic zones?

As noted above. I don't believe that earth is flat. But that doesn't mean that the Biblical authors didn't. You keep asking me questions as if it's something I believe and therefore must justify.

 

[Job 33:6]

It wouldn't be solid if the sun went through the sky dome and positioned behind it.

Pretty much everybody knows the bible isn't a science textbook nor have i have suggested that it is.

I will agree ancient civilization didn't know the earth was a sphere up to early A.D even.

How the sun would have moved along the face of the raqia is anyone's guess. These ancient people's were not scientifically advanced as we are today.

Some suggest that celestial bodies were viewed as living beings. Hence why the sons of God, angels, were associated with shooting stars.

Job 38:7 it says, "while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?"

‭‭Daniel‬ ‭8:10‬ ‭NRSV
[10] It grew as high as the host of heaven. It threw down to earth some of the host and some of the stars and trampled on them.

Of course Satan is described as the morning star in Ezekiel etc.

So sometimes the stars that moved outside of the typical background motion were believed to be "alive".

 

[RDKirk]

It wouldn't be solid if the sun went through the sky dome and positioned behind it.

Pretty much everybody knows the bible isn't a science textbook nor have i have suggested that it is.

I will agree ancient civilization didn't know the earth was a sphere up to early A.D even.

The ancient Greeks knew the earth was spheroidal at least as far back as 350BC. They had even calculated its circumference to 90% accuracy. Their method of that discovery and there calculations are easy to recreate. Science at its basic level. The Hellenized Jews--such as Paul--would have known it as well.

The early Christian church appears to have accepted the Greek spheroidal earth understanding without question, at least without a question that was ever noted. Augustine apparently had no issues with Greek science as known in his day.

 

[Job 33:6]

The ancient Greeks knew the earth was spheroidal at least as far back as 350BC. They had even calculated its circumference to 90% accuracy. Their method of that discovery and there calculations are easy to recreate. Science at its basic level. The Hellenized Jews--such as Paul--would have known it as well.

The early Christian church appears to have accepted the Greek spheroidal earth understanding without question, at least without a question that was ever noted. Augustine apparently had no issues with Greek science as known in his day.

The old testament of course is much much older than Greek measurements of a spherical earth. Much of the old testament dates back to at least 600BC. With ancient near east parallels dating back over 1,000BC and beyond.

 

[RDKirk]

The old testament of course is much much older than Greek measurements of a spherical earth. Much of the old testament dates back to at least 600BC. With ancient near east parallels dating back over 1,000BC and beyond.

That's a non-sequitur to my post. The fact is that knowledge of the spheroidal nature of the earth is ancient, not modern, and the Church had accepted it early in Church history...presuming educated Jews hadn't already accepted it.

 

[BeyondET]

The ancient Greeks knew the earth was spheroidal at least as far back as 350BC. They had even calculated its circumference to 90% accuracy. Their method of that discovery and there calculations are easy to recreate. Science at its basic level. The Hellenized Jews--such as Paul--would have known it as well.

The early Christian church appears to have accepted the Greek spheroidal earth understanding without question, at least without a question that was ever noted. Augustine apparently had no issues with Greek science as known in his day.

It appears the human race has gone through sort of a reset of education several times. Like today could easily go from spaceships back to stone tools in no time, thinking the world is flat.

 

[Job 33:6]

That's a non-sequitur to my post. The fact is that knowledge of the spheroidal nature of the earth is ancient, not modern, and the Church had accepted it early in Church history...presuming educated Jews hadn't already accepted it.

The topic is about ancient Hebrews that wrote the old testament. It's not about early church fathers. That's what the two of us were discussing. It sounded like you were trying to correct someone, rather than just pointing out a random piece of information.

And the concept of ancient is also relative. The ancient near east is more ancient than the early church for example.

 

[RDKirk]

And the concept of ancient is also relative. The ancient near east is more ancient than the early church for example.

That doesn't make "ancient" relative. It just means the ancient near east has more negative numbers than the ancient early church. Ancient history covers all continents inhabited by humans in the period 5000 BC – AD 750.

 

[Job 33:6]

That doesn't make "ancient" relative. It just means the ancient near east has more negative numbers than the ancient early church. Ancient history covers all continents inhabited by humans in the period 5000 BC – AD 750.

Yes, and so for the purpose of this discussion, we are talking about the Hebrew authors and audience. Specifically as it relates to the old testament. Which means that the early church wouldn't fit in the subject of what we were talking about.

So for example, we were talking about ancient isrealites. Something like 1,000BC to about 500BC. And then you commented with:

"The fact is that knowledge of the spheroidal nature of the earth is ancient, not modern, and the Church had accepted it early in Church history"

But of course the early church is more like 0AD to 400AD or so.

So your response to the subject is centuries removed from what we were discussing, and centuries removed from the original authorship and audience of the old testament.

So it sounded like you were trying to imply that the ancient isrealites would have known earth was a sphere. And I'm just pointing out that they lived a long time before Greek observations related to a spherical earth.

Also, the ancient near east context of the old testament is something specific and independent of post-intertestimental period Greece. Even if we might consider the early church "ancient" by our standards. The early church is relatively young and new compared to the historical context of the old testament.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, and so for the purpose of this discussion, we are talking about the Hebrew authors and audience. Specifically as it relates to the old testament. Which means that the early church wouldn't fit in the subject of what we were talking about.

So for example, we were talking about ancient isrealites. Something like 1,000BC to about 500BC. And then you commented with:

"The fact is that knowledge of the spheroidal nature of the earth is ancient, not modern, and the Church had accepted it early in Church history"

But of course the early church is more like 0AD to 400AD or so.

So your response to the subject is centuries removed from what we were discussing, and centuries removed from the original authorship and audience of the old testament.

So it sounded like you were trying to imply that the ancient isrealites would have known earth was a sphere. And I'm just pointing out that they lived a long time before Greek observations related to a spherical earth.

Also, the ancient near east context of the old testament is something specific and independent of post-intertestimental period Greece. Even if we might consider the early church "ancient" by our standards. The early church is relatively young and new compared to the historical context of the old testament.

I guess after 16 pages, my question is: What difference does it make?

The ancient Hebrews also thought there were multiple gods and that they just worshipped the best one.