LDS Mormons Think They Came Here From Heaven

Rescued One

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Proverbs 30
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?



Jesus said:

John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 

Peter1000

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Proverbs 30
4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?



Jesus said:

John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
I love who you are. We would get along nicely.
 
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Rescued One

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God made us in the womb of our mothers.

He planned our lives before we were born. God knows past, present and future, and is not limited to a certain place.


Acts 17: 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
 
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Rescued One

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Thank you for the correction. I thought there was something in the bible to that affect.:)

You're welcome.

Adam was made from the dust of the earth and God breathed into him the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 11
5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

Job 31
14 What then shall I do when God riseth up? and when he visiteth, what shall I answer him?
15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

There are a lot of things we don't have exact answers for.
 
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He is the way

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Thank you for the correction. I thought there was something in the bible to that affect.:)
There is:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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returntosender

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There is:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
I am not a biblical scholar but that doesn't seem clear to me in supporting your stance. If only one verse in the whole bible you feel supports where you are coming from it wouldn't be enough to convince me. Especially when it isn't spelled out clearly.
Perhaps you have more verses to put forth to stand behind your beliefs? Same goes for Phoebe who can offer counter verses to prove her point?
 
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He is the way

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I am not a biblical scholar but that doesn't seem clear to me in supporting your stance. If only one verse in the whole bible you feel supports where you are coming from it wouldn't be enough to convince me. Especially when it isn't spelled out clearly.
Perhaps you have more verses to put forth to stand behind your beliefs? Same goes for Phoebe who can offer counter verses to prove her point?
(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 8)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
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returntosender

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(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 5:1 - 8)

1 FOR we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


I can't see that any of this proves your point and your last verse to me has always meant that if you are present with the Lord it is after your death.
Phoebe's verse is very telling and the meaning can't be disputed:

"John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

I don't think much of the doctrines of men, we have so many.
I don't usually have any argument with LDS because they believe in Jesus and what it takes to be with him. I do have much to disagree with their doctrine.

Only the Lord knows whether all your beliefs will get you to heaven or if it even matters. There are three things that he requires for salvation. The biggest problem I have with your beliefs is some say your Jesus is not my Jesus. My very best friend is a Mormon and she maintains that Her Jesus was born of Mary, and is not just a man. If true I have no problem. There are other things that I dispute but it only matters to me what Jesus thinks. My opinion is nothing in comparison.
God bless you.
One other problem is your bible, the book of Mormon. There is only one and that is inspired by God. To me adding to it with the BOM is risking your salvation.
 
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He is the way

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I can't see that any of this proves your point and your last verse to me has always meant that if you are present with the Lord it is after your death.
Phoebe's verse is very telling and the meaning can't be disputed:

"John 3
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

I don't think much of the doctrines of men, we have so many.
I don't usually have any argument with LDS because they believe in Jesus and what it takes to be with him. I do have much to disagree with their doctrine.

Only the Lord knows whether all your beliefs will get you to heaven or if it even matters. There are three things that he requires for salvation. The biggest problem I have with your beliefs is some say your Jesus is not my Jesus. My very best friend is a Mormon and she maintains that Her Jesus was born of Mary, and is not just a man. If true I have no problem. There are other things that I dispute but it only matters to me what Jesus thinks. My opinion is nothing in comparison.
God bless you.
One other problem is your bible, the book of Mormon. There is only one and that is inspired by God. To me adding to it with the BOM is risking your salvation.
There is some differences between the scripture Phoebe used and the one I used. We know that Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected and therefore the first MAN to ascend up to heaven. That verse uses the word MAN not spirit. I have already shown that the spirit RETURNS to God who gave it. When we look at the next verses I used we also see that it is about our ETERNAL IN THE HEAVENS spirit. You may remember what Jesus said to the thief:

(New Testament | Luke 23:42 - 43)

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So while all of these scriptures are correct it is important that we look closely at each one to see the differences between them.
 
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mac777

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The early Christian Father Origen was commissioned by the Christian church of alexandria to write a refute against a Pagan philosopher whom had wrote a treatise against the Saviour and His followers.
With that Authority from that venerable christian centre around 220 AD he stated the Christian doctrines of his church of Alexandria and of Christians in general.
One of those doctrines was that of the pre earth lives of all men, that man lived before he was born.
In the sixth century council documents were falsified to claim that Origen was to be claimed a heretic and that his teaching about the Pre earth life of man was a heresy.
Christian historians verify this and declare that Origen was one of that blessed band of early christians that lived and died in grace!
The Alexandrian church nor Origens belief in the pre existance of man was never refuted or cast as a heresy in the early christian church.
To this very day Origen is respected as one of the most important of the christian writers of the early church
 
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Rescued One

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There is some differences between the scripture Phoebe used and the one I used. We know that Jesus Christ was the first to be resurrected and therefore the first MAN to ascend up to heaven.

Jesus was God --- fully God and fully man. He was in heaven before He lowered Himself to become a man. He resurrected Himself after He died.

Our God is omnipresent. Your god isn't. Therefore we weren't born on your Kolob!
 
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dzheremi

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Just so that it's out there, post #16 in no way represents the view of the Alexandrian Church. That's my Church, and I know what we teach and believe, and it is not accurate to claim that Origen's doctrine on the preexistence of man is that of the Alexandrian Church itself. It isn't. We don't believe that, and our rejection of this idea has absolutely nothing to do with what the Chalcedonian churches did much later in the sixth century.

While our stance concerning Origen is admittedly more ambiguous than that of the Chalcedonian churches (because he was, after all, a son of Alexandria and the one-time dean of the Catechetical School), he was quite unambiguously condemned in his own time by HH Pope Demetrius (who is a saint in our Church, while Origen is not) and subsequent Pope HH St. Heraclas (who had been an assistant to Origen at the catechetical school), so everything he wrote after this condemnation (by a synod held in Alexandria in 232, which found him guilty of accepting ordination in a foreign see in Palestine, without the consultation of his bishop) is most definitely not to be taken as representative of the thought of the Alexandrian Church, as he was not a part of it anymore. And he never returned to Alexandria after this condemnation, dying probably in Tyre, Phoenicia (now Lebanon) around 253. So some of his most famous works, like Against Celsus (written well after his condemnation, in 248; I'm assuming this is the work the poster was referencing, since it is a famous refutation against the ancient world's most strident pagan critic of Christianity at that time), were written when he actually had no standing in the Alexandrian Church, and hence certainly could not have been working under its authority, or entrusted to convey its doctrines.

This is not a new stance or some kind of about-face, either. No less a figure in Alexandrian Church history than the champion fighter HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic (d. 373), who was Pope of the Church for 45 years (328-373), wrote against the pre-existence of man by his argument against the various schools of philosophy that argued that everything was created from preexistent matter (this is the Mormon argument, since Mormonism is nothing but ancient pagan heresies dressed up in a bunch of vaguely Jesus-y language to be sold to those who don't know what the early Church itself actually taught and believed), which would no doubt includes man. HH points out that the Holy Scriptures themselves say otherwise, and so the Church says otherwise as well (from his masterwork, On The Incarnation):

Thus do they vainly speculate. But the godly teaching and the faith according to Christ brands their foolish language as godlessness. For it knows that it was not spontaneously, because forethought is not absent; nor of existing matter, because God is not weak; but that out of nothing, and without its having any previous existence, God made the universe to exist through His word, as He says firstly through Moses: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth; secondly, in the most edifying book of the Shepherd, "First of all believe that God is one, which created and framed all things, and made them to exist out of nothing." To which also Paul refers when he says, "By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the Word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which do appear."

This is what we still teach today. As HG Bishop Youssef of the Southern United States Diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church puts it in response to a question on preexistence as relates to Jeremiah 1:5 ("Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee..."), "Pre-existence can only apply to the Holy Trinity. God is Omnipotent and Omniscient. Thus, He has foreknowledge of everything and everyone. There is no pre-existence of any other creature, not of mankind and not even of angels, but only God."
 
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He is the way

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Jesus was God --- fully God and fully man. He was in heaven before He lowered Himself to become a man. He resurrected Himself after He died.

Our God is omnipresent. Your god isn't. Therefore we weren't born on your Kolob!
Isn't this omnipresent?

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 6:32)

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, as I said unto my disciples, where two or three are gathered together in my name, as touching one thing, behold, there will I be in the midst of them—even so am I in the midst of you.

No one was born on Kolob that I know of. God does NOT live on Kolob.
 
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