Israel is Real! Avoid the Christian arrogance that Paul Specifically warned against (Romans 11:25)

[Grip Docility]

As long as it is in agreement with the NT.

Correct, Heb 11:7 refers to the believing remnant of Israel.
While the branches grafted into the one olive tree of God's people in Heb 11:17 refer to the believing remnant of Gentiles, who are likewise the ELECT.

All mankind is on the same footing now, there are no carve-outs; i.e., salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ

God has hardened all of Israel except for a remnant (Ro 11:5).

Only those who have believed in Jesus Christ will be part of the Body of Christ, including
those who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).
Which has been only a remnant of Jews for the last 2,000 years now. . .just as it has been only a remnant of the Gentiles for the same period of time.

The Jews were separated from the Gentiles as the cleanliness laws required.
Christians are not forbidden to associate with Jews.

I will now bow out and turn this thread over to you.

I implore you to search out the “MYSTERY” that Paul laid out from Romans 11:25-36… but respect that you feel that you understand scripture from your perspective and won’t delve any further into the matter.

All Love in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, God the Son, The King of the Jews, to you

 

[Clare73]

I will now bow out and turn this thread over to you.

I implore you to search out the “MYSTERY” that Paul laid out from Romans 11:25-36…

"Mystery" in the NT meaning something formerly hidden or obscure but now revealed by God. . .

In this case, it being the plan by which a remnant of both Jew and Gentile, after a period of disobedience by both, will by his mercy be included in the kingdom of God, in fulfillment of the mystery of God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9), especially to include both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-6).

but respect that you feel that you understand scripture from your perspective and won’t delve any further into the matter.

All Love in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, God the Son, The King of the Jews, to you

I take my understanding of all Scripture from apostolic teaching.
All not in agreement with apostolic teaching is in error.

 

[Grip Docility]

"Mystery" in the NT meaning something formerly hidden or obscure but now revealed by God. . .

In this case, it being the plan by which a remnant of both Jew and Gentile, after a period of disobedience by both, will by his mercy be included in the kingdom of God, in fulfillment of the mystery of God's purpose to sum up all things in Christ (Eph 1:9), especially to include both Jews and Gentiles in the NT church (Eph 3:3-6).

I take my understanding of all Scripture from apostolic teaching.
All not in agreement with apostolic teaching is in error.

We are both saved by the Same Jesus. Error will exist in all of us, until we are with Jesus.

These matters that we have discussed are not salvational issues for you and I.

I acknowledge that I am a mere human and all theological Truth belongs only to the Living Truth… therefore, I have only shared with you my perspective and opinion.

<3

 

[Mr. M]

You have literally quoted from Romans 11 which distinctly defines Israel as Enemy of the Gospel Jews, and those of Faith in Jesus as the Church. Abraham came "Before Israel", so the Land promises have not been made to Abraham.... who is not Israel. Jacob is Israel, so that logic doesn't hold up to scripture. IMO

Romans 9:
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;
but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God;
but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

Isaiah 51:
“Listen to Me, you who follow after righteousness,
You who seek the Lord:
Look to the rock from which you were hewn,
And to the hole of the pit from which you were dug.
2 Look to Abraham your father,
And to Sarah who bore you;
For I called him alone,
And blessed him and increased him.”

Galatians 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.

The body of Christ are all those of saving faith in Jesus Christ, including those of faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Now, to Romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened
to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; ={natural Israel}
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

If and when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in,
the door is open wide for Jewish conversion to belief in
the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As it seems to be this day.

 

[Clare73]

Galatians 3:29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Now, to Romans 11:
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened
to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; ={natural Israel}
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

If and when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in,
the door is open wide for Jewish conversion to belief in
the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As it seems to be this day.

The door has been open wide since the coming of Christ.

The problem is not the door, but their hearts, the majority of which are still hardened, right?

 

[Mr. M]

The door has been open wide since the coming of Christ.

The problem is not the door, but their hearts, the majority of which are still hardened, right?

There has been widespread acceptance of Yeshua as Messiah in the past couple of decades among Jews, even as belief in the Lord among the nations has been steadily diminishing, suggesting but not stating definitively, that the fullness of the Gentiles approaches, and blindness is coming off the hearts of natural Israel.
Jesus is the door.
John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

 

[Clare73]

There has been widespread acceptance of Yeshua as Messiah in the past couple of decades among Jews,

I did not realize that. . .wow!

More than just a remnant?

even as belief in the Lord among the nations has been steadily diminishing, suggesting but not stating definitively, that the fullness of the Gentiles approaches, and blindness is coming off the hearts of natural Israel.
Jesus is the door.
John 10:7 Then Jesus said to them again, Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

 

[Mr. M]

More than just a remnant?

I would venture to say that there is near a remnant in Israel alone,
which should be all that is necessary.
Many are persecuted, which is also relevant.
The point being, without hard statistics that there are many more
Jewish believers among the nations, even as a majority remain
secular humanists as you seem to be suggesting.
The decline in belief among Gentiles was the main point, in that
the fullness of the Gentiles is stated to being a prerequisite to a
complete lifting of the veil. Trendy, I know.

 

[Mr. M]

I did not realize that. . .wow!

More than just a remnant?

Nor would I consider this a completely positive movement.
There has been a growing "Messianic Jewish" sect with many
Gentiles among them that seem less interested in evangelizing
the world's unbelievers, as holding a somewhat militant stance toward
"fixing"Christianity with their superior understanding of the scriptures.
This is very common in this and many forums, and you do realize that.

 

[Grip Docility]

Nor would I consider this a completely positive movement.
There has been a growing "Messianic Jewish" sect with many
Gentiles among them that seem less interested in evangelizing
the world's unbelievers, as holding a somewhat militant stance toward
"fixing"Christianity with their superior understanding of the scriptures.
This is very common in this and many forums, and you do realize that.

Not so... opposed to the old approach where it was... "you're hellbound".... there is a strong intermingling of Jews and Christians. Or, should we underestimate Paul when he said, and to those under the law, I became as those under the law... becoming all things to all men to win some to the gospel?

 

[Mr. M]

Not so... opposed to the old approach where it was... "you're hellbound".... there is a strong intermingling of Jews and Christians. Or, should we underestimate Paul when he said, and to those under the law, I became as those under the law... becoming all things to all men to win some to the gospel?

I have enjoyed strong fellowship with Jewish believers since the early nineties.
I have also had many unpleasant experiences with Messianics, especially Gentiles
in the past five years on this and other forums. I have watched very militant videos
by so called Jewish believers who speak with open disdain towards the doctrines of Paul.
I have nothing but best hopes for relationships among all believers. Forums are in
no way representative of those relationships overall. But I speak of experiences, not empty opinion.
I most certainly have never underestimated Paul.

 

[Grip Docility]

I have enjoyed strong fellowship with Jewish believers since the early nineties.
I have also had many unpleasant experiences with Messianics, especially Gentiles
in the past five years on this and other forums. I have watched very militant videos
by so called Jewish believers who speak with open disdain towards the doctrines of Paul.
I have nothing but best hopes for relationships among all believers. Forums are in
no way representative of those relationships overall. But I speak of experiences, not empty opinion.
I most certainly have never underestimated Paul.

1 Kings 19:18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

 

[Zao is life]

Romans 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

BALANCE

I'm on the state we all know as Israel's side, and the side of the Jews in this hatred and evil we see today where evil is being put for good, and good for evil, darkness for light (includes lies for truth) and light for darkness .

God love the Jews who are broken off through unbelief, despite the fact that they are broken off:

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

The fathers being Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

There is only one covenant that takes away sins and only one Deliverer, and He made the (new) covenant with Israel 2,.000 years ago - with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The salvation of Israel has been ongoing for the last 2,000 years - but not the repentance of each and every individual Jew from unbelief in Jesus (yet):

And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

If you're looking for a scripture that tells us that ALL unbelieving Jews are going to stop abiding in unbelief and be "grafted in" again, Romans 11 is the wrong scripture.

Firstly, if you believe that "history is prophecy" (as the Rabbis say) or "Old Testament history is full of types of what is to come" (as the Preacher says) then ask yourself:

Did Joseph's brothers become reconciled to him before or after they finally recognized the one who had become ruler of all Egypt (the type of the world) for who he was?

Did they finally recognize him for who he was before or after he revealed to them who he was?

The whole house of Pharaoh (the biblical type of the whole world) heard his loud sobs when he finally became reconciled to his brothers - and after this ALL ISRAEL dwelt with him in the adyllic land of Goshen during a prolonged period of peace, safety and prosperity

- until something happened to close that "millennium".

Secondly, Old Testament prophecy is PACKED with promises regarding the restoration of ALL Israel to God, to the land of the fathers, and the reuniting of the house of Israel - the 10 tribes of Ephraim - "the fullness of the Gentiles" who were cut off in 725 BC - and the house of Judah (Jews and Benjamin) into ONE NATION under the descendant of David.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all you heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause your mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put all of you in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the wine-vats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall all of you know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses ransacked, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Today of all times we need to show our love for God by showing our love for the people He also loves - both the saints in Christ, Jew and Gentile - and the Jews who are still broken off:

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

I do not have to do this out of my own human effort. It flows naturally out of my love for Christ, I don't even have to try. So I do not understand why ALL Christians to not feel the same way.

And besides this, if anyone cannot discern the spirit behind Gog of Magog as the spirit behind all this uncalled for hatred of the state of Israel and of the Jews going on today, then he is B-L-I-N-D, IMO.

As God's prophet said,

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter." -- Isaiah 5:20

Putting lies for truth and truth for lies is part of putting darkness for light and light for darkness. The Almighty God and Father of all creation knows and sees all.

"Woe to those who pull evil along using cords of deception and destruction, who pull sin as with cart ropes." -- Isaiah 5:18
Because, as the prophet of God said,

"Men will be humiliated, they will be brought low; the proud will be brought low. The LORD who commands armies will be exalted when he punishes, the sovereign God's authority will be recognized when he judges." -- Isaiah 5:15-16.

So as the prophet of God said,

"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" -- Isaiah 5:21

19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.

BALANCE

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

23 And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Keep praying for Israel - i.e the state we call Israel, and for all the Jews of Israel and all around the world.

And remember the favorite slogan of their enemies: "First the Saturday people. Then the Sunday people."

 

[Grip Docility]

BALANCE

I'm on the state we all know as Israel's side, and the side of the Jews in this hatred and evil we see today where evil is being put for good, and good for evil, darkness for light (includes lies for truth) and light for darkness .

God love the Jews who are broken off through unbelief, despite the fact that they are broken off:

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

The fathers being Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

There is only one covenant that takes away sins and only one Deliverer, and He made the (new) covenant with Israel 2,.000 years ago - with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. The salvation of Israel has been ongoing for the last 2,000 years - but not the repentance of each and every individual Jew from unbelief in Jesus (yet):

And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

If you're looking for a scripture that tells us that ALL unbelieving Jews are going to stop abiding in unbelief and be "grafted in" again, Romans 11 is the wrong scripture.

Firstly, if you believe that "history is prophecy" (as the Rabbis say) or "Old Testament history is full of types of what is to come" (as the Preacher says) then ask yourself:

Did Joseph's brothers become reconciled to him before or after they finally recognized the one who had become ruler of all Egypt (the type of the world) for who he was?

Did they finally recognize him for who he was before or after he revealed to them who he was?

The whole house of Pharaoh (the biblical type of the whole world) heard his loud sobs when he finally became reconciled to his brothers - and after this ALL ISRAEL dwelt with him in the adyllic land of Goshen during a prolonged period of peace, safety and prosperity

- until something happened to close that "millennium".

Secondly, Old Testament prophecy is PACKED with promises regarding the restoration of ALL Israel to God, to the land of the fathers, and the reuniting of the house of Israel - the 10 tribes of Ephraim - "the fullness of the Gentiles" who were cut off in 725 BC - and the house of Judah (Jews and Benjamin) into ONE NATION under the descendant of David.

11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all you heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause your mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put all of you in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the wine-vats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall all of you know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses ransacked, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Today of all times we need to show our love for God by showing our love for the people He also loves - both the saints in Christ, Jew and Gentile - and the Jews who are still broken off:

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

I do not have to do this out of my own human effort. It flows naturally out of my love for Christ, I don't even have to try. So I do not understand why ALL Christians to not feel the same way.

And besides this, if anyone cannot discern the spirit behind Gog of Magog as the spirit behind all this uncalled for hatred of the state of Israel and of the Jews going on today, then he is B-L-I-N-D, IMO.

As God's prophet said,

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter." -- Isaiah 5:20

Putting lies for truth and truth for lies is part of putting darkness for light and light for darkness. The Almighty God and Father of all creation knows and sees all.

"Woe to those who pull evil along using cords of deception and destruction, who pull sin as with cart ropes." -- Isaiah 5:18
Because, as the prophet of God said,

"Men will be humiliated, they will be brought low; the proud will be brought low. The LORD who commands armies will be exalted when he punishes, the sovereign God's authority will be recognized when he judges." -- Isaiah 5:15-16.

So as the prophet of God said,

"Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" -- Isaiah 5:21

19 You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.

BALANCE

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, IF you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.

23 And they also, IF they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Keep praying for Israel - i.e the state we call Israel, and for all the Jews of Israel and all around the world.

And remember the favorite slogan of their enemies: "First the Saturday people. Then the Sunday people."

This is a powerful and much appreciated post! Thank you so very much for taking the time to author it!

 

[Grip Docility]

No one is personally superior to anyone else. . .we are all born sinners.

But unbelieving Israel has been cut off from the one olive tree of God's people, the church, the body of Christ, and but for a remnant, remain cut off to this day (Ro 11:16-23).

Israel is on the same footing as all mankind; salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ.
And all Israel is being saved the same way that all mankind is being saved; i.e., in a believing remnant only.

You get the patience of Job award for blessing our dialogue with so many scripture references and putting up with my unrefined demeanor!

Thank you so very much for seeing the discussion all the way through to the end!

 

[Hazelelponi]

No one is personally superior to anyone else. . .we are all born sinners.

But unbelieving Israel has been cut off from the one olive tree of God's people, the church, the body of Christ, and but for a remnant, remain cut off to this day (Ro 11:16-23).

Israel is on the same footing as all mankind; salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ.
And all Israel is being saved the same way that all mankind is being saved; i.e., in a believing remnant only.

There's something spiritual in what is happening.

I don't know what, I don't think I understand it. I don't think the Bible is a land deed.

But the world against them? What's happening is pure evil.

I don't know what God is doing, but the longer this goes on, the more I just feel like we have no choice but to protect them. It's our job somehow, to stand with them. In front if need be.

I feel like not doing so is a sin: if we turn our back we will have sinned.

We came out of them... They are our family, even if they don't know Christ. We do have a duty to family whether they believe or not.

 

[Clare73]

BALANCE

I'm on the state we all know as Israel's side, and the side of the Jews in this hatred and evil we see today where evil is being put for good, and good for evil, darkness for light (includes lies for truth) and light for darkness .

God love the Jews who are broken off through unbelief, despite the fact that they are broken off:

"As far as the election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs." (Ro 11:28)

It is the "election" (Ro 11:28), the part (remnant) who believes, who are not hardened (Ro 11:25), who are loved.

 

[Grip Docility]

"As far as the election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs." (Ro 11:28)

It is the "election" (Ro 11:28), the part (remnant) who believes, who are not hardened (Ro 11:25), who are loved.

leans in and whispers..... "yet"

 

[Zao is life]

"As far as the election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs." (Ro 11:28)

It is the "election" (Ro 11:28), the part (remnant) who believes, who are not hardened (Ro 11:25), who are loved.

I disagree with your deduction. The election you are talking about above is linked to the gospel which all must believe in order to be part of the elect remnant - but Paul states specifically that they are enemies as far as the gospel is concerned

- yet regarding God's election of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Paul states that God still loves those who are enemies as far as the gospel is concerned

- and this is for the sake of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, because God has His election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in mind always. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."
​

No election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, no election for us either.

Saying that God still loves them is not the same as saying that they are part of the elect remnant. It's saying that because of God's election of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He loves even those descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who are broken off through their unbelief

- and the words "BELOVED of God" should not be overlooked, IMO.

If what you said were true then it nullifies the need for faith in Christ and belief of the gospel - because then Paul is talking about the elect remnant being beloved for the fathers' sakes,

rather than because of believing the gospel.​

 

[Clare73]

leans in and whispers..... "yet"

Too cute!

IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23). . .