Israel is Real! Avoid the Christian arrogance that Paul Specifically warned against (Romans 11:25)

[Grip Docility]

Romans 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[Clare73]

Romans 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

No one is personally superior to anyone else. . .we are all born sinners.

But unbelieving Israel has been cut off from the one olive tree of God's people, the church, the body of Christ, and but for a remnant, remain cut off to this day (Ro 11:16-23).

Israel is on the same footing as all mankind; salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ.
And all Israel is being saved the same way that all mankind is being saved; i.e., in a believing remnant only.

 

[Grip Docility]

No one is personally superior to anyone else. . .we are all born sinners.

But unbelieving Israel has been cut off from the one olive tree of God's people, the church, the body of Christ, and but for a remnant, remain cut off to this day (Ro 11:16-23).

Israel is on the same footing as all mankind; salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ.
And all Israel is being saved the same way that all mankind is being saved; i.e., in a believing remnant only.

I challenge you to exegete Romans 11:25-32 and maintain that exact point without changing what the scripture says…

 

[Clare73]

I challenge you to exegete Romans 11:25-32 and maintain that exact point without changing what the scripture says…

"Some of the branches (unbelieving-in-Christ Israel, not the true Israel of Ro 9:6) ) have been broken (cut) off. . ." (v.17)

". . .God did not spare the natural branches (unbelieving-in-Christ Israel, not the true Israel). . ." (v. 21)

"If they (unbelieving-in-Christ Israel) do not persist in unbelief (in Jesus Christ, which they have for 2,000+ yrs. now), they will be grafted in. . ." (v. 23)

"And thus (in the same way, by the same method of vv.11-12, by jealousy at the salvation of the Gentiles) all the (true) Israel will be saved." (vv. 25-27)

Not all Israel is true Israel. . .only believing-in-Christ Israel is true Israel.

The majority of Israel who have died over the past 2,000 years were not true Israel.
Only the believing-in-Jesus-Christ remnant was true Israel.

God's gifts and his call are irrevocable (v.29), and are being fulfilled in a remnant, just as the salvation of the Gentiles is being fulfilled in a remnant.

God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all (so that all are subject to his mercy, Ro 11:32), none are entitled.

 

[Grip Docility]

"Some of the branches (unbelieving-in-Christ Israel, not the true Israel of Ro 9:6) ) have been broken (cut) off. . ." (v.17)

". . .God did not spare the natural branches (unbelieving-in-Christ Israel, not the true Israel). . ." (v. 21)

"If they (unbelieving-in-Christ Israel) do not persist in unbelief (in Jesus Christ, which they have for 2,000+ yrs. now), they will be grafted in. . ." (v. 23)

"And thus (in the same way, by the same method of vv.11-12, by jealousy at the salvation of the Gentiles) all the (true) Israel will be saved." (vv. 25-27)

Not all Israel is true Israel. . .only believing-in-Christ Israel is true Israel.

The majority of Israel who have died over the past 2,000 years were not true Israel.
Only the believing-in-Jesus-Christ remnant was true Israel.

God's gifts and his call are irrevocable (v.29), and are being fulfilled in a remnant, just as the salvation of the Gentiles is being fulfilled in a remnant.

First problem... you seem to believe that True Israel doesn't mean literal Jews and Land of Israel.... which is a major issue. You have legitimately twisted the actual meaning of each verse.

Paul literally wrote; Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

If that isn't TRUE ISREAL, I'm not sure what else is.

They are the true "ELECT"... It actually says so in the verse... is this where your contention is hung?

Are you attempting to define the Body of Christ as Israel?

 

[Clare73]

First problem... you seem to believe that True Israel doesn't mean literal Jews and Land of Israel.... which is a major issue. You have legitimately twisted the actual meaning of each verse.

Elect in the NT refers to salvation.
True Israel in NT usage refers to Israel which believes in the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

Paul literally wrote; Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

All Israel is not elect to salvation, only a remnant (believers in Jesus Christ) are elect (Ro 11:1-7).

If that isn't TRUE ISREAL, I'm not sure what else is.

They are the true "ELECT"... It actually says so in the verse... is this where your contention is hung?

Unbelieving Israel are not God's elect to salvation in Jesus Christ. They are cut off from the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11).

Are you attempting to define the Body of Christ as Israel?

The body of Christ is all those who believe in the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, including those of Israel.
That body of Christ is the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

 

[Grip Docility]

Elect in the NT refers to salvation.
True Israel in NT usage refers to Israel which believes in the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth.

All Israel is not elect to salvation, only a remnant (believers in Jesus Christ) are elect (Ro 11:1-7).

Unbelieving Israel are not God's elect to salvation in Jesus Christ. They are cut off from the one olive tree of God's people (Ro 11).

The body of Christ is all those who believe in the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, including those of Israel.
That body of Christ is the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

You have literally quoted from Romans 11 which distinctly defines Israel as Enemy of the Gospel Jews, and those of Faith in Jesus as the Church. Abraham came "Before Israel", so the Land promises have not been made to Abraham.... who is not Israel. Jacob is Israel, so that logic doesn't hold up to scripture. IMO

 

[Clare73]

You have literally quoted from Romans 11 which distinctly defines Israel as Enemy of the Gospel Jews, and those of Faith in Jesus as the Church. Abraham came "Before Israel", so the Land promises have not been made to Abraham

Review Ge 17:8, 26:3, 28:14, 35:12 with reference to "you," and Heb 11:11-13 regarding Abraham.

 

[Grip Docility]

Review Ge 17:8, 26:3, 28:14, 35:12 with reference to "you,' and Heb 11:11-13 regarding Abraham.

Perfect! You have the Body of Christ represented through Abraham and on, which is with Jesus, in heaven, as it is being stored up. This poses a problem to the idea that Israel on earth is currently for the gentiles (Romans 11:25, Luke 21:24), because Paul specifically refers to the Decedents of Jacob(Israel), which you have bound to the current timeline through Gen 35:12.
"
Now, since you appreciate what the LORD says; Matthew 23:39... and we see in Acts 1:6-7 that "Earthly Israel" still matters to God by lineage and location (Romans 11:28-29). Remember, The BOC is in Heaven and towards the very end... snatched away at the final time of the Anti-Christ, which we know will rule from Israel.... and be terrible towards the Jews that live in Israel (Joel 3 and Zechariah 12-14)...

I'll keep my reply short to make your rebuttal simple... but it is here, based on timeline and all scripture that I will double down to my original point... Zechariah 12:10 See, Zechariah 12:10 is to LITERAL Israel of Jacob's bloodline and Literal Land Location.... The BOC isn't joined with Literal Israel until Jesus returns....

We know per Acts 1:12 that Jesus left the Mount of Olives... and the angel in Acts 1:11 specifies that Jesus will return exactly as He left...

This is why Joel 3 and Zechariah 12-14 CANNOT be ignored.... because we see Jesus return to LITERAL ISRAEL Bloodline and Land (Romans 11:28-29) exactly HERE (Zechariah 14:3-4 ........ Back to Matthew 23:39 which was specifically towards "Rebellious Israel" we now see Zechariah 12:10 as the fulfillment of Matthew 23:39

I appreciate your quotation of ALL scriptural points... but note that you don't seem to have timeline perceived as it is biblically laid out through ALL scripture.

Your IMO error is to thrust our use of "Israel" towards the BOC before the close of time. See, The Messiah has already introduced Himself to Israel and has been partially rejected by "some of Israel", while the rest of Israel is the very flame that ignited the BOC. This said... if there is no Jew nor Gentile in the BOC, and we know that the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9) is still relevant which scripture makes abundantly clear.... to call the BOC "Israel" in this current time of the GENTILES, which will close and return time TO THE JEWS... for THEIR SALVATIONAL SAKE (Romans 11:25)... Is to Erase God's plan for literal Israel.... which, mind you, is ironic, because that is the very reason that the Jews rejected Messiah, because they didn't understand His work with us Gentile Sinners. Take close note of this.... because I will double down on each specific aspect as we continue debate and discussion.

If you are interested, I will be focusing on Acts 1, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14 quite a bit to rebut your disagreement with timeline.

All respect to you in our Lord God, Jesus the Son of God, God the Son.

 

[Clare73]

Perfect! You have to Body of Christ represented through Abraham and on, which is with Jesus, in heaven, as it is being stored up. This poses a problem to the idea that Israel on earth is currently for the gentiles (Romans 11:25, Luke 21:24), because Paul specifically refers to the Decedents of Jacob(Israel), which you have bound to the current timeline through Gen 35:12."
Now, since you appreciate what the LORD says; Matthew 23:39... and we see in Acts 1:6-7 that "Earthly Israel" still matters to God by lineage and location (Romans 11:28-29). Remember, The BOC is in Heaven and towards the very end... snatched away at the final time of the Anti-Christ, which we know will rule from Israel.... and be terrible towards the Jews that live in Israel (Joel 3 and Zechariah 12-14)...
I'll keep my reply short to make your rebuttal simple... but it is here, based on timeline and all scripture that I will double down to my original point... Zechariah 12:10 See, Zechariah 12:10 is to LITERAL Israel of Jacob's bloodline and Literal Land Location.... The BOC isn't joined with Literal Israel until Jesus returns....

We know per Acts 1:12 that Jesus left the Mount of Olives... and the angel in Acts 1:11 specifies that Jesus will return exactly as He left...

This is why Joel 3 and Zechariah 12-14 CANNOT be ignored.... because we see Jesus return to LITERAL ISRAEL Bloodline and Land (Romans 11:28-29) exactly HERE (Zechariah 14:3-4 ........ Back to Matthew 23:39 which was specifically towards "Rebellious Israel" we now see Zechariah 12:10 as the fulfillment of Matthew 23:39

I appreciate your quotation of ALL scriptural points... but note that you don't seem to have timeline perceived as it is biblically laid out through ALL scripture.

Your IMO error is to thrust our use of "Israel" towards the BOC before the close of time.

God has only one people, composed of believing (in the promise, Seed, Jesus Christ, Ge 15:5) Jews and believing-in-Jesus Christ Gentiles, both being saved only in remnants (Ro 11:17-23, 32).

 

[Grip Docility]

God has only one people, composed of believing (in the promise, Seed, Jesus Christ, Ge 15:5) Jews and believing-in-Jesus Christ Gentiles, both being only remnants (Ro 11:17-23).

I have to be honest... I'm locking down on my post number 9... Because you have clearly not read it. It addresses and assigns your error involving timeline. You haven't even addressed Luke 21:24, or Romans 11:25 and what "The time of the gentiles" means.

Without understanding biblical timeline, you can go to any scripture and make your point... but I do believe that I have successfully nailed scripture down to specific timeline and thus, have a more relevant usage of it in this matter... at the current.

IMO, Post number 9 remains fully Unrebutted... as I specifically said;

"Your IMO error is to thrust our use of "Israel" towards the BOC before the close of time. See, The Messiah has already introduced Himself to Israel and has been partially rejected by "some of Israel", while the rest of Israel is the very flame that ignited the BOC. This said... if there is no Jew nor Gentile in the BOC, and we know that the Body of Moses (Jude 1:9) is still relevant which scripture makes abundantly clear.... to call the BOC "Israel" in this current time of the GENTILES, which will close and return time TO THE JEWS... for THEIR SALVATIONAL SAKE (Romans 11:25)... Is to Erase God's plan for literal Israel.... which, mind you, is ironic, because that is the very reason that the Jews rejected Messiah, because they didn't understand His work with us Gentile Sinners. Take close note of this.... because I will double down on each specific aspect as we continue debate and discussion."

I have ensured that I backed all of my statements up with scripture and sincere timeline that is backed up in ALL scripture, which post number 9 covers the portions that can be linked from.

 

[Clare73]

I have to be honest... I'm locking down on my post number 9...

Your post does not address my post #8.

 

[Grip Docility]

Your post does not address my post #8.

Read 9 again... I thanked you for your excellent usage of scripture involving the promises, but then noted that you have zero understanding of biblical timeline. For me, the promise to Abraham has no point, until the close of all time, in reference to land... as scripture agrees. I always refer to Jacob, because his timeline is not finished and comes before the union of the BOC with the BOM. I went into such depth on this matter, that I will now triple down on Post #9.

In short, you are looking at a baseball game through the lens, that it doesn't matter, what inning that you are referring to, IMO... Biblically speaking.. It most certainly matters, which inning we are referring to.

This may become circular and that is fine, because discerning readers can read both sides for themselves and decide in the Spirit's guidance, for themselves.

 

[Clare73]

Read 9 again... I thanked you for your excellent usage of scripture involving the promises, but then noted that you have zero understanding of biblical timeline. For me, the promise to Abraham has no point, until the close of all time,

Heb 11 shows that it was not a promise of earthly land, but a promise of heavenly land, which he received at his death.

 

[Grip Docility]

Heb 11 shows that it was not a promise of earthly land, but a promise of heavenly land, which he received at his death.

You're still making the case for my point in post #9. If the BOC is in Heaven, why then does the Land promise still dominate end times prophecy? Go back to post #9! The BOC and the Body of Moses hasn't been joined yet! Romans 11 declares a mystery that binds to "THE DAY OF THE LORD".

Post #9 is only strengthened!

 

[Clare73]

You're still making the case for my point in post #9. If the BOC is in Heaven,

Scripture reference teaching the body of Christ in heaven?

why then does the Land promise still dominate end times prophecy?

The land promise to the patriarchs personally ("you"--Ge 17:8, 26:3, 28:4, 35:12), who never received a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5), was a promise of heavenly land, not earthly land (Heb 11:13-16).

 

[Grip Docility]

Scripture reference teaching the body of Christ in heaven?

The land promise to the patriarchs personally ("you"--Ge 17:8, 26:3, 28:4 35:12), who never received a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5), was a promise of heavenly land, not earthly land (Heb 11:13-16).

Exodus 23:31 literally draws out the physical boarders that make up Israel. This is to the Body of Moses Jude 1:9... not the BOC (Abraham)...

To the Jew, Moses isn't just a name... It's an alternate name for the Torah (Books of the Law). We Christians even acknowledge that Moses is responsible for the Authorship of Genesis - Deuteronomy. Every prophet that talks about Physical Israel as it exists on planet earth is referring to the boarders of Exodus 23:31. Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 are about those EXACT boarders!

Every time you include Genesis 35:12 in the promises, you are further bolstering my point... as those are to "Jacob (Israel)"... the literal Bloodline of Jacob.

The BOC does make up "Heavenly Jerusalem", which Peter describes as;

1 Peter 2:4 Coming to Him, a living stone—rejected by men but chosen and valuable to God— 5 you yourselves, as living stones, are being built into a spiritual house for a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

but that AIN'T "Israel"...

There is a Physical Blood line and Literal earthly Land... and the BOC which is in Heaven, and not on earth.

Anything else that I need to emphasize goes directly back to post #9, which remains bolstered.

 

[Clare73]

Exodus 23:31 literally draws out the physical boarders that make up Israel. This is to the Body of Moses Jude 1:9... not the BOC (Abraham)...

"The body of Moses" is the physical human body of the prophet Moses, nothing more nor nothing less.

The "dispute of the archangel Michael with the devil about the body of Moses" (Jude 9) is Jewish tradition, as is
the angel in Ac 7:38,
Jannes and Jabres in 2 Tim 3:8, and
the sawing in two of Isaiah in Heb 11:7.

They are not found in the OT texts.

First problem... you seem to believe that True Israel doesn't mean literal Jews and Land of Israel.... which is a major issue. You have legitimately twisted the actual meaning of each verse.

Paul literally wrote; Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
If that isn't TRUE ISREAL, I'm not sure what else is.

True Israel would be the election of the remnant of Israel to believe in Christ (Ro 11:1-6), the rest (majority) being hardened (Ro 11:7) and cut off the one olive tree of God's people, the roots of which tree are the holy patriarchs (Ro 11:16), the trunk which springs from the roots (patriarchs) being Jesus of Nazareth, and the branches being those in the body of Christ, the called-out people (ekklesia) of God, of both the OT and the NT.

Only the remnant who believe in the Messiah are the true Israel, the rest are cut off (Ro 11:17, 19), and will be grafted back in to the one olive of God's people IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, which they have for over 2,000 years now, and counting.

They are the true "ELECT"... It actually says so in the verse... is this where your contention is hung?

No, I'm "hung" at Ro 11:5-7:
"God did not reject his people whom he foreknew. . .at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. . .
what Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect (remnant) did.

Are you attempting to define the Body of Christ as Israel?

The body of Christ are all those of saving faith in Jesus Christ, including those of faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

 

[Grip Docility]

"The body of Moses" is the physical human body of the prophet Moses, nothing more nor nothing less.

The "dispute of the archangel Michael with the devil about the body of Moses" (Jude 9) is Jewish tradition, as is
the angel in Ac 7:38,
Jannes and Jabres in 2 Tim 3:8, and
the sawing in two of Isaiah in Heb 11:7.

They are not found in the OT texts.

True Israel would be the election of the remnant of Israel to believe in Christ (Ro 11:1-6), the rest (majority) being hardened (Ro 11:7) and cut off the one olive tree of God's people, the roots of which tree are the holy patriarchs (Ro 11:16), the trunk which springs from the roots (patriarchs) being Jesus of Nazareth, and the branches being those in the body of Christ, the called-out people (ekklesia) of God, of both the OT and the NT.

Only the remnant who believe in the Messiah are the true Israel, the rest are cut off (Ro 11:17, 19), and will be grafted back in to the one olive of God's people IF (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, which they have for over 2,000 years now, and counting.

No, I'm "hung" at Ro 11:5-7:
"God did not reject his people whom he foreknew. . .at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. . .
what Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect (remnant) did.

The body of Christ are all those of saving faith in Jesus Christ, including those of faith in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).

So, shall we also use Jewish tradition to understand "who" Messiah is? Notice that the ELECT is a direct reference to Israel, not Gentile Christians? I will attempt to spell it out. We are IN the Messiah (Body of Christ). God has "Hardened" a partial group of Israel, for HIS purpose. At the close of it all, THEN Israel will be part of the Body of Christ, and the Body of Christ will be part of Israel.

The Messiah's second coming hasn't happened yet. Shall we be to the Jews as they were to the Gentiles?

 

[Clare73]

So, shall we also use Jewish tradition to understand "who" Messiah is?

As long as it is in agreement with the NT.

Notice that the ELECT is a direct reference to Israel, not Gentile Christians?

Correct, Heb 11:7 refers to the believing remnant of Israel.
While the branches grafted into the one olive tree of God's people in Heb 11:17 refer to the believing remnant of Gentiles, who are likewise the ELECT.

All mankind is on the same footing now, there are no carve-outs; i.e., salvation is only by faith in Jesus Christ

I will attempt to spell it out. We are IN the Messiah (Body of Christ). God has "Hardened" a partial group of Israel, for HIS purpose.

God has hardened all of Israel except for a remnant (Ro 11:5).

At the close of it all, THEN Israel will be part of the Body of Christ, and the Body of Christ will be part of Israel.

Only those who have believed in Jesus Christ will be part of the Body of Christ, including
those who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16).
Which has been only a remnant of Jews for the last 2,000 years now. . .just as it has been only a remnant of the Gentiles for the same period of time.

The Messiah's second coming hasn't happened yet. Shall we be to the Jews as they were to the Gentiles?

The Jews were separated from the Gentiles as the cleanliness laws required.
Christians are not forbidden to associate with Jews.

There is, and has been since Abraham, only one people of God; i.e., those who believe in Jesus Christ, whether in the Promise or in the Person.