Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[stevevw]

Ahh. The "vaunted" western canon of literature. A very 19th century view of western literature from the Anglo(and sometimes)-American elites and their educational institutions formed before the ethnics, Jews, Catholics, and poors were contaminated their educational spaces. The big whingers about the reduced teaching of that literature also bemoan (mostly out of view) that we got into their spaces. Of course this "western canon" needs to be revamped and expanded. Stuff was written after 1850 and outside England. Stylistically I find most of it unreadable.

Actually the western canon contains a fair number of non western authors and thinkers. That is the good think about the western canon is that I don't think it was dictated by culture or ideology but on the outstanding thinkers who contributed something to understanding ourselves, life and brought new insights that made an impression.

For example the canon includes Russians like Tolstoy and Germans such as Kant and Nietzsche. Or muscians like Beethoven and Mozart hardly American country music or western pop. There are also Asians, South Americans, African authors. If the wworks impacted society and made an impression on our lives it made the canon.

I think the canon contains those great works which we all need to know which gives us the pivotal periods of thinking and how this changed and influenced society. Not just for the west but for everyone. Like Frauds great insights which changed psychology and led to psychological profiling. Or the many great ethical philosophers who have challenged our ideas about morality.

Some say in this case Peterson that the canon can be put in a hierarchal order of truth. Basically literature is about truth, trying to reveal a truth about self and the world. The more ideas about truth that are dependent on a given idea the more fundemental that idea and truth is. So the great authors like Shakesphere are in there because so many other texts rely on its literary revelations. Others like Milton funny enough and Dante woiuld be deep in the hiearchy.

So those great canon texts are there because they influences other texts in the hierarchy than all other texts with the bible at its base as this for the west was the first book literally at one point. In fact it was the church that helped get it printed for the public back then. Before it was a book it was on papyrus and other smaller texts.

So the bible is not just truth that all other texts have stemmed from but its the precondition for the manifestation of truth.

Ugh. It wasn't a good story the first time, why would I read an Englishman's rewrite?

I guess its not just the story moral of the story. I mean with quotes like "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, and a Hell of Heaven" and "Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven" says it all.

These ideas still underpin our thinking and reveal insights into values about life. About how we can be lured by pride to make choices based on short term glory but will make us unhappy in the end. All that glitters is not gold ect. Be wise in your choices and ensure you look after whats important and not what others think is important.

These ideas and principles come out of canon literature and are important truths the west discovered which have helped us understand ourselves and life.

 

[BCP1928]

Actually the western canon contains a fair number of non western authors and thinkers. That is the good think about the western canon is that I don't think it was dictated by culture or ideology but on the outstanding thinkers who contributed something to understanding ourselves, life and brought new insights that made an impression.

For example the canon includes Russians like Tolstoy and Germans such as Kant and Nietzsche. Or muscians like Beethoven and Mozart hardly American country music or western pop. There are also Asians, South Americans, African authors. If the wworks impacted society and made an impression on our lives it made the canon.

I think the canon contains those great works which we all need to know which gives us the pivotal periods of thinking and how this changed and influenced society. Not just for the west but for everyone. Like Frauds great insights which changed psychology and led to psychological profiling. Or the many great ethical philosophers who have challenged our ideas about morality.

Some say in this case Peterson that the canon can be put in a hierarchal order of truth. Basically literature is about truth, trying to reveal a truth about self and the world. The more ideas about truth that are dependent on a given idea the more fundemental that idea and truth is. So the great authors like Shakesphere are in there because so many other texts rely on its literary revelations. Others like Milton funny enough and Dante woiuld be deep in the hiearchy.

So those great canon texts are there because they influences other texts in the hierarchy than all other texts with the bible at its base as this for the west was the first book literally at one point. In fact it was the church that helped get it printed for the public back then. Before it was a book it was on papyrus and other smaller texts.

So the bible is not just truth that all other texts have stemmed from but its the precondition for the manifestation of truth.

I guess its not just the story moral of the story. I mean with quotes like "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, and a Hell of Heaven" and "Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven" says it all.

These ideas still underpin our thinking and reveal insights into values about life. About how we can be lured by pride to make choices based on short term glory but will make us unhappy in the end. All that glitters is not gold ect. Be wise in your choices and ensure you look after whats important and not what others think is important.

These ideas and principles come out of canon literature and are important truths the west discovered which have helped us understand ourselves and life.

Fraud. How delightfully Freudian, especially in a post that features Jordan Peterson.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Actually the western canon contains a fair number of non western authors and thinkers. That is the good think about the western canon is that I don't think it was dictated by culture or ideology but on the outstanding thinkers who contributed something to understanding ourselves, life and brought new insights that made an impression.

For example the canon includes Russians like Tolstoy and Germans such as Kant and Nietzsche. Or muscians like Beethoven and Mozart hardly American country music or western pop. There are also Asians, South Americans, African authors. If the wworks impacted society and made an impression on our lives it made the canon.

We were talking about literature (and Germans are definitly "Western" anyway) not music. You could make a case for Tolstoy being "non-Western", but I don't know where these Asian or African authors you think are in the "Western canon" are.

I think the canon contains those great works which we all need to know which gives us the pivotal periods of thinking and how this changed and influenced society. Not just for the west but for everyone. Like Frauds great insights which changed psychology and led to psychological profiling. Or the many great ethical philosophers who have challenged our ideas about morality.

Quite the Freudian slip there. (I like it though.)

Some say in this case Peterson that the canon can be put in a hierarchal order of truth. Basically literature is about truth, trying to reveal a truth about self and the world. The more ideas about truth that are dependent on a given idea the more fundemental that idea and truth is. So the great authors like Shakesphere are in there because so many other texts rely on its literary revelations. Others like Milton funny enough and Dante woiuld be deep in the hiearchy.

So those great canon texts are there because they influences other texts in the hierarchy than all other texts with the bible at its base as this for the west was the first book literally at one point. In fact it was the church that helped get it printed for the public back then. Before it was a book it was on papyrus and other smaller texts.

We weren't talking about the bible and it isn't "Western". No westerner wrote a single word of it. (If you believe the claims about authorship.

So the bible is not just truth that all other texts have stemmed from but its the precondition for the manifestation of truth.

Wait! Now "all other texts" are based on the bible? That's quite a claim.

[inchoherent ex-professor deleted]


I guess its not just the story moral of the story. I mean with quotes like "The mind is its own place, and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, and a Hell of Heaven" and "Better to reign in Hell, than to serve in Heaven" says it all.

I swear Peterson makes less sense every time I hear something from him.

These ideas still underpin our thinking and reveal insights into values about life. About how we can be lured by pride to make choices based on short term glory but will make us unhappy in the end. All that glitters is not gold ect. Be wise in your choices and ensure you look after whats important and not what others think is important.

You've degenerated into aphorisms at this point. Have you caught Peterson's disease? (That's what I shall call it from now on in "honor" of our best example - Jordo.)

These ideas and principles come out of canon literature and are important truths the west discovered which have helped us understand ourselves and life.

I'm not sure where you are getting this at this point.

 

[stevevw]

Fraud. How delightfully Freudian, especially in a post that features Jordan Peterson.

Lol a Freudian slip. I also knew that linking Peterson would stir the bees nest lol.

But he has a point. The western canon is a library of western thought, philosophy, insights, revelations about ourselves and the world. There are fundemental texts that express this and they are justified to be held with respect as they made us better people, helped us understand the world and symbolized who we are.

Freud being one who gave us insights into the human psyche and there were others like Kant who gave us insights into ethics.

But all those texts trace back to the Bible mainly and perhaps some aspects of the Greco Roman revelations as well. But these all converged on similar truths for which the west holds as fundemental.

And I might add that it is some of these truths that todays society want to dismantle.

 

[stevevw]

We were talking about literature (and Germans are definitly "Western" anyway) not music. You could make a case for Tolstoy being "non-Western", but I don't know where these Asian or African authors you think are in the "Western canon" are.

Heres a pretty good list from Bloom which contains just about every nation.

Bloom. Western Canon

Quite the Freudian slip there. (I like it though.)

Hey thats what I said.

We weren't talking about the bible and it isn't "Western". No westerner wrote a single word of it. (If you believe the claims about authorship.

But we were talking about the western canon and the bible is part of the western canon and in fact foundational. And yes the bible is no western just like other canon texts don't originate from the west. They make the canon because regardless of the origin they are pivotal to western thought and ideas about truth.

Wait! Now "all other texts" are based on the bible? That's quite a claim.

I am talking about the core western truths about morality, values, how to treat others. Obviously the bible at one stage was the only book literally. Then came all the other texts based on this. For example the bible truth of the Golden Rule. That has been written about and analysed throughout history as a basic principle that underpins philosophy, psychology ect from which other texts have expanded on.

I swear Peterson makes less sense every time I hear something from him.

Well he m,akes good sense to millions especially those he has helped in his practice but also many males with his 12 steps for life. A good insight into his philosophy is the first step which is to stand upright, shoulders back and look the world in the eye instead of being crouched and looking down. Then to clean up your room as you can't clean up your life if your environment is in chaos.

He his papers have been cited over 20,000 times so he must be making some sense. Very down to earth and intelligent man who gives great insight psychologically and philosophically into people and how we can live a better life.

You've degenerated into aphorisms at this point. Have you caught Peterson's disease? (That's what I shall call it from now on in "honor" of our best example - Jordo.)

It seems you have more of the problem that you want to focus on the man more than the content.

I'm not sure where you are getting this at this point.

Thats because your more consumed with logical fallacies than the content. If you don't understand the reasons why these canon texts hold importance, the lessons and life principles they capture than theres no explaining to you.

 

[BCP1928]

I am talking about the core western truths about morality, values, how to treat others. Obviously the bible at one stage was the only book literally.

Obviously? When was that?

Then came all the other texts based on this. For example the bible truth of the Golden Rule. That has been written about and analysed throughout history as a basic principle that underpins philosophy, psychology ect from which other texts have expanded on.

Which predates the Bible and is found in cultures with no connection to it.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Heres a pretty good list from Bloom which contains just about every nation.

Bloom. Western Canon

It is weird that Bloom thinks that ancient Indian and Near EAST literature is part of the WESTERN canon as they are not products of the "West".

Hey thats what I said.

But we were talking about the western canon and the bible is part of the western canon and in fact foundational. And yes the bible is no western just like other canon texts don't originate from the west. They make the canon because regardless of the origin they are pivotal to western thought and ideas about truth.

I am talking about the core western truths about morality, values, how to treat others.

No, you are talking about Christian values while ignoring the base western material (Greece & Rome).

Obviously the bible at one stage was the only book literally.

Oh, good grief. You've fallen for some weird Christian propaganda about the bible. This is simply not true. Books existed before the bible and many books existed at the same time throughout its entire existence.

Then came all the other texts based on this. For example the bible truth of the Golden Rule. That has been written about and analysed throughout history as a basic principle that underpins philosophy, psychology ect from which other texts have expanded on.

So much so, that the "golden rule" existed in Western civilization *before* Christianity. (And every other civilization out there has some form of it.)


Now briefly on to Jordan Peterson, crank,

Well he m,akes good sense to millions especially those he has helped in his practice but also many males with his 12 steps for life. A good insight into his philosophy is the first step which is to stand upright, shoulders back and look the world in the eye instead of being crouched and looking down. Then to clean up your room as you can't clean up your life if your environment is in chaos.

A peddler of self-help pablum. It is almost shocking he rose to fame outside the Oprah-sphere.

He his papers have been cited over 20,000 times so he must be making some sense. Very down to earth and intelligent man who gives great insight psychologically and philosophically into people and how we can live a better life.

Maybe he should stayed an academic then if his career was so strong. I'm not a pyschologist, so I have no way of evaluating his professional work, but I am capable of evaluating his dire cultural and political commentary.

It seems you have more of the problem that you want to focus on the man more than the content.

I do have a problem with Jordan and I don't read or view his content any more.

Thats because your more consumed with logical fallacies than the content. If you don't understand the reasons why these canon texts hold importance, the lessons and life principles they capture than theres no explaining to you.

It still makes no sense to put non-Western texts into the Western canon of literature, but either way it won't help with your arguments.

 

[stevevw]

Obviously? When was that?

Well the first print of the bible was in 1455 with the Gutenberg Bible. But there were pieces of the book around long before this going back to BC. In 382AD the pope commissioned the latin bible in writing. But it wasn't until the 16th century that it was translated into other languages for the general public as the first and only book to be printed. For the West this was the first book and it had a big impact on their worldview.

By 1600, printed versions of the entire Bible had appeared in 15 European languages.

A brief history of Bible translation

It seems that Bible translation has always been integral to God’s mission. And the story is not over! A brief history of Bible translation.

wycliffe.org.uk

Hebrew culture exerted its greatest literary influence on the West because of the place held by its early writings as the Old Testament of the Christian Bible; and this literature profoundly influenced Western consciousness through translation from about the time of St. Augustine onward into every vernacular language as well as into Latin.

Western literature - Medieval, Epic, Romance

Western literature - Medieval, Epic, Romance: Medieval, “belonging to the Middle Ages,” is used here to refer to the literature of Europe and the eastern Mediterranean from as early as the establishment of the Eastern Roman, or Byzantine, Empire about ad 300 for medieval Greek, from the period...

www.britannica.com

Which predates the Bible and is found in cultures with no connection to it.

Yes but we are talking about the west, the western thought and worldview, the Christian worldview. I'm not saying the bible was the first text around though some writing go back a long way. I am saying that the bible and the pieces of text around before that leading up to the new testament, so through the Torah down to the New testament writings and then through the church, its preservation of the text and its printing.

THis is the wests history of text. Though the west in also rooted in Greco Roman text it was the Christianisation of that text into the western Christian worldview that formed the basis for western culture, thought and text for which the western canon grew out from. Ie Augustine was an early thinker who influenced western thought on many issues.

 

[stevevw]

It is weird that Bloom thinks that ancient Indian and Near EAST literature is part of the WESTERN canon as they are not products of the "West".

I don't think the canon is meant to be just a product of the west but rather the significant literature that had an impact and influence on western thought.

No, you are talking about Christian values while ignoring the base western material (Greece & Rome).

I am not ignoring it but rather how Christian values and thinking Christianized those writings. For example Plato's 'the Good' was seen through the eyes of the Christian God as the basis for the 'Good' which influenced ethical writings.

Oh, good grief. You've fallen for some weird Christian propaganda about the bible. This is simply not true. Books existed before the bible and many books existed at the same time throughout its entire existence.

I am talking for the west. The bible was preserved due to its importance like no other writings. It was the first book printed and translated into different languages within the west and this was literally the first book the general public had access to.

But before that it was meticulously copied in writings within the church and beofre that it was in other texts such as on papyrus and sections of the Old Testament, the stories were around very early as early as the authors themselves as they are referred to in other texts around at the time.

So much so, that the "golden rule" existed in Western civilization *before* Christianity. (And every other civilization out there has some form of it.)

I am talking about the Golden Rule as seen through the west. The Christian worldview of how this applied influenced western values on this.

I also want to point out that the idea that all cultures have their own ideas about the Golden Rule supports the idea that all cultures have the same core beliefs and values because this is part of being human. We are innately believers and have a sense of morality suchas empathy.

Now briefly on to Jordan Peterson, crank,

A peddler of self-help pablum. It is almost shocking he rose to fame outside the Oprah-sphere.
Maybe he should stayed an academic then if his career was so strong. I'm not a pyschologist, so I have no way of evaluating his professional work, but I am capable of evaluating his dire cultural and political commentary.
I do have a problem with Jordan and I don't read or view his content any more.

This seems an overly critical view. A crank seems harsh when any balanced and reasonable position would have to acknowledge the massive contribution he has given to many who are struggling especially men who need this type of advice to overcome the high rates of mental illness. But also his informed views on a number of issues.

Pablum, its interesting you use such a word that is more about personal feelings than fact. I am not such the millions who are benefiting from his lectures and videos would say is stuff is bland. Quite the opposite. So perhaps this is more about your subjective feelings or ideology about the guy rather than his actual works.

Anyway I didn't realize Peterson held such importance that a seperate reply is needed to disqualify the man rather than value the content of his works.

It still makes no sense to put non-Western texts into the Western canon of literature, but either way it won't help with your arguments.

Like I said the canon is not just about western texts but the texts that influenced western thought. Which sort of shows that even outside cultural ideas aligned with western thought. Western thought at its most fundemental is really universal as its about truth, the search for truth.

What is my arguement, that western culture was heavily influenced by the Christian worldview and that this has been dismantled especially in recent times into a new worldview without the Christian God.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Well the first print of the bible was in 1455 with the Gutenberg Bible. But there were pieces of the book around long before this going back to BC. In 382AD the pope commissioned the latin bible in writing. But it wasn't until the 16th century that it was translated into other languages for the general public as the first and only book to be printed. For the West this was the first book and it had a big impact on their worldview.

You should really learn about the existence of other books. The bible was not the only book copied by hand before movable type printing and it wasn't the only printed book for very long.

(Oops, it seems that the Bible might not have even been the first book Gutenberg printed):

Some printed editions of Ars Minor, a schoolbook on Latin grammar by Aelius Donatus, may have been printed by Gutenberg; these have been dated either 1451–52, or 1455.

In 1455, Gutenberg completed copies of a well-executed folio Bible (Biblia Sacra), with 42 lines on each page

 

[Hans Blaster]

This seems an overly critical view. A crank seems harsh when any balanced and reasonable position would have to acknowledge the massive contribution he has given to many who are struggling especially men who need this type of advice to overcome the high rates of mental illness. But also his informed views on a number of issues.

Pablum, its interesting you use such a word that is more about personal feelings than fact. I am not such the millions who are benefiting from his lectures and videos would say is stuff is bland. Quite the opposite. So perhaps this is more about your subjective feelings or ideology about the guy rather than his actual works.

Anyway I didn't realize Peterson held such importance that a seperate reply is needed to disqualify the man rather than value the content of his works.

I thought I went easy on Peterson. (Or at least I tempered my words to pass the Fellman-Lux decency filter employed here.)

Peterson is like the opposite of credible, anti-credible. (I didn't make a separate reply before, but since you seem to think I did then, I will now, so we can end this part of this nonsense.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

I don't think the canon is meant to be just a product of the west but rather the significant literature that had an impact and influence on western thought.

I still think that is weird. It is the "Western LIterary Canon", ie., the canon of Western literature, not the grab-bag of things that influenced us.

I am not ignoring it but rather how Christian values and thinking Christianized those writings. For example Plato's 'the Good' was seen through the eyes of the Christian God as the basis for the 'Good' which influenced ethical writings.

It is so like Christians to mash Christianity into everything they appropriate. Sigh.

I am talking for the west. The bible was preserved due to its importance like no other writings. It was the first book printed and translated into different languages within the west and this was literally the first book the general public had access to.

We don't need to waste time explaining how wrong you are about the bible and publication.

But before that it was meticulously copied in writings within the church and beofre that it was in other texts such as on papyrus and sections of the Old Testament, the stories were around very early as early as the authors themselves as they are referred to in other texts around at the time.

It looks early to us as it was a couple thousand years ago. I'm not sure what you mean by "around very early" here.

I am talking about the Golden Rule as seen through the west. The Christian worldview of how this applied influenced western values on this.

There are better versions of the GR than other the Christian one. For example here is the Yoruba version:

"One who is going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Having a "golden rule" doesn't make the "west" or "Christendom" special.

I also want to point out that the idea that all cultures have their own ideas about the Golden Rule supports the idea that all cultures have the same core beliefs and values because this is part of being human.

Your doing good so far...

We are innately believers and have a sense of morality suchas empathy.

Irrelevant (believers) and correct (empathy). Neither of which backs anything about a Christian worldview.

 

[BCP1928]

Well the first print of the bible was in 1455 with the Gutenberg Bible. But there were pieces of the book around long before this going back to BC. In 382AD the pope commissioned the latin bible in writing. But it wasn't until the 16th century that it was translated into other languages for the general public as the first and only book to be printed. For the West this was the first book and it had a big impact on their worldview.

Blatantly false and not supported by your source. The Bible has always been available in any language a significant number of people were able to read.

 

[BCP1928]

What is my arguement, that western culture was heavily influenced by the Christian worldview and that this has been dismantled especially in recent times into a new worldview without the Christian God.

Likewise, the "Christian worldview" has been influenced by Western culture, to the extent that the "God" which you see being dismantled is not really the Christian God any more.

 

[stevevw]

You should really learn about the existence of other books. The bible was not the only book copied by hand before movable type printing and it wasn't the only printed book for very long.

(Oops, it seems that the Bible might not have even been the first book Gutenberg printed):

Some printed editions of Ars Minor, a schoolbook on Latin grammar by Aelius Donatus, may have been printed by Gutenberg; these have been dated either 1451–52, or 1455.

In 1455, Gutenberg completed copies of a well-executed folio Bible (Biblia Sacra), with 42 lines on each page

The point was the Bible was the only book in many homes and widely read.

 

[stevevw]

Likewise, the "Christian worldview" has been influenced by Western culture, to the extent that the "God" which you see being dismantled is not really the Christian God any more.

Not sure whaat you mean. When it exactly did the west change the Christian God. I know that western culture had moved away from God and the Christian God is no longer the God of the west.

But that was not the result of western Christian culture but western secular culture.

The truth I am talking about which stemmed from Christianity were not dismantled by the Christian west as they were also integral parts of secular society. They went hand in hand.

The dismantling of these truths was the result of moving away from God due to secular ideology which not only rejected God but also those truth principles like Enlightenment, Rule of Law, Made in Gods image, morality and the how we order society.

 

[stevevw]

Blatantly false and not supported by your source. The Bible has always been available in any language a significant number of people were able to read.

Ok then your supporting my point that the bible was the the first book for many and widely read as a foundational text in the western canon.

 

[stevevw]

I thought I went easy on Peterson. (Or at least I tempered my words to pass the Fellman-Lux decency filter employed here.)

Peterson is like the opposite of credible, anti-credible. (I didn't make a separate reply before, but since you seem to think I did then, I will now, so we can end this part of this nonsense.)

I meant a seperate reply that you would not just mention this in passing but specifically attack him. Make a point of it. But yeah its a side issue. I just wish people would ebngage on the content rather than these fallacies which side track things in the first place.

When someone makes a false accusation then of course people are going to question the motivation.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The point was the Bible was the only book in many homes and widely read.

What sad deprived homes. I think the bible was the only book in our home that I didn't read. (Was that really your point? It doesn't seem like it.)

 

[stevevw]

I still think that is weird. It is the "Western LIterary Canon", ie., the canon of Western literature, not the grab-bag of things that influenced us.

I don't know, what is western literature. I mean the Old Testament is Hebrew afterall and thats a foundational text.

It is so like Christians to mash Christianity into everything they appropriate. Sigh.

But its true. Are you saying the Christian worldview did not influence our view of the world. My point did not just apply to Christians either. I also pointed out that the Christian worldview influenced ethics including non Christian ethicsal ideas.

We don't need to waste time explaining how wrong you are about the bible and publication.

Your complaining about the details of publication is a red herring, The point is the bible was the first widely read book within the west and it is foundational to the western thinking and worldview.

Thats was the point but all you have managed to do is create fallacies attacking the credibility of sources and minor detail that has nothing to do with the point made.

It looks early to us as it was a couple thousand years ago. I'm not sure what you mean by "around very early" here.

The writings from the old testament were around well before AD. But I don't want another sidetrack. It doesn't matter how early the bible is, who wrote it, the point is its a foundational book for the west and it influenced our worldview.

There are better versions of the GR than other the Christian one. For example here is the Yoruba version: "One who is going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Yeah thats OK, its a pretty version but simplistic. For the west I think the bible influenced its meaning. It related to parables like the Good Samaritan and was the second greatest commandment that covered all the moral laws.

It wasn't just about not hurting others as you would not want to be hurt . It was loving others as you love yourself which covered much more. It relates to the central Christian idea of self sacrifice for others.

Having a "golden rule" doesn't make the "west" or "Christendom" special.

No but its an example of how western thought was influenced by Christianity. It also shows that much of Christian thought and values were universal. That Gods order aligned with the universal truths we all know.

Irrelevant (believers) and correct (empathy). Neither of which backs anything about a Christian worldview.

I wasn;t making the point that it backs Christian world view. I was linking back in my previous point that these truths that the Christian worldview aligns with are also universal truths because humans have this innate knowledge regardless of culture.