Is modern secular society headed down the path to Sodom and Gomorrah.

[dzheremi]

I can't believe I read though pages and pages of this thread only to have it turn into another anti-trans thread.

What I don't get about that is that I think most people would agree that the level of prominence that trans issues and gender identity issues in general have been given in mainstream society has massively spiked in the last 20 years or so. That being the case, did the people who are convinced that trans issues are the absolute end of society think everything was going fine before 20 years ago? The answer is obviously no, since back then it was about Teletubbies turning your toddlers gay or something. So it's hard not to see the cyclical nature of the objections. True, "Gay people are doing coded stuff directed at our children!" has largely given way to this narrative where specifically trans people are openly preaching the greatness of transness to school children or something, but that's not much of an evolution, so I don't know why there's all this hue and cry about it now. So the teletubbies have become the transitubbies. Big whoop. In a few years, it will be something else. That's how the game is played. It's like how the 24-hour news cycle is effective by constantly coming out with some new thing that "could hurt your children", or arguably overreporting on an already existing danger as though it is suddenly extra-dangerous when nothing has really changed about the claim (e.g., no, people are not spiking your children's Halloween candy with drugs; it may have happened once somewhere from whence the larger claim came, but it's not really a thing).

I'm conservative as they come on matters of Christian belief and practice, but I'm so tired of this being the issue that I'm being told we have to care about and devote so much time to (not by my own Church, thank God, but by wider 'Christian society' in the western world) that I think it's pushing me to be more liberal on the issue than I might otherwise be. Granted, my own problems with LGBT-ism are the reductionism involved in making any part of the alphabet soup into some kind of primary vehicle for societal liberation or personal actualization or whatever (and, yes, I do have the same problem with people who make being straight into their defining identity, as though it's something they've achieved somehow), so I largely avoid the whole "But men are this and women are that!" aspect of the debate either way, but still...can we move on now, please? How do you all ever have any time to fast or pray or do outreach or whatever it is you do in your churches when somewhere, at some time there are people who self-identify as trans out there doing things? Somewhere in America right now, a 'trans person' is buying a bagel, and it's an insult to every bagel-loving Christian in the entire world and to God, I'll tell you what.

 

[BCP1928]

I can't believe I read though pages and pages of this thread only to have it turn into another anti-trans thread.

What I don't get about that is that I think most people would agree that the level of prominence that trans issues and gender identity issues in general have been given in mainstream society has massively spiked in the last 20 years or so. That being the case, did the people who are convinced that trans issues are the absolute end of society think everything was going fine before 20 years ago? The answer is obviously no, since back then it was about Teletubbies turning your toddlers gay or something. So it's hard not to see the cyclical nature of the objections. True, "Gay people are doing coded stuff directed at our children!" has largely given way to this narrative where specifically trans people are openly preaching the greatness of transness to school children or something, but that's not much of an evolution, so I don't know why there's all this hue and cry about it now. So the teletubbies have become the transitubbies. Big whoop. In a few years, it will be something else. That's how the game is played. It's like how the 24-hour news cycle is effective by constantly coming out with some new thing that "could hurt your children", or arguably overreporting on an already existing danger as though it is suddenly extra-dangerous when nothing has really changed about the claim (e.g., no, people are not spiking your children's Halloween candy with drugs; it may have happened once somewhere from whence the larger claim came, but it's not really a thing).

I'm conservative as they come on matters of Christian belief and practice, but I'm so tired of this being the issue that I'm being told we have to care about and devote so much time to (not by my own Church, thank God, but by wider 'Christian society' in the western world) that I think it's pushing me to be more liberal on the issue than I might otherwise be. Granted, my own problems with LGBT-ism are the reductionism involved in making any part of the alphabet soup into some kind of primary vehicle for societal liberation or personal actualization or whatever (and, yes, I do have the same problem with people who make being straight into their defining identity, as though it's something they've achieved somehow), so I largely avoid the whole "But men are this and women are that!" aspect of the debate either way, but still...can we move on now, please? How do you all ever have any time to fast or pray or do outreach or whatever it is you do in your churches when somewhere, at some time there are people who self-identify as trans out there doing things? Somewhere in America right now, a 'trans person' is buying a bagel, and it's an insult to every bagel-loving Christian in the entire world and to God, I'll tell you what.

Yes, trans is the hot issue just now, but this thread was meant to be inclusive of all forms of gender nonconformity, not just LGBT but women's lib, no-fault divorce, the feminization of men, etc.. It is gender nonconformity in all its forms which is responsible for the decline of western civilization, anything which causes men and women to depart in any way from the strict "masculine" and "feminine" stereotypes which Christians imagine as "biblical."

 

[Zaha Torte]

That straight people can be converted to trans? That trans people can't have children? Too bad for the "trans ideology" then, because both of those statements are false.

My comment was about the LGHDTV cult - not just "trans" people.

Why are you refuting your own statements?

 

[BCP1928]

My comment was about the LGHDTV cult - not just "trans" people.

Why are you refuting your own statements?

What statements am I refuting?

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, trans is the hot issue just now, but this thread was meant to be inclusive of all forms of gender nonconformity, not just LGBT but women's lib, no-fault divorce, the feminization of men, etc.. It is gender nonconformity in all its forms which is responsible for the decline of western civilization, anything which causes men and women to depart in any way from the strict "masculine" and "feminine" stereotypes which Christians imagine as "biblical."

Yeah. Uh...anyway, it seems like a lot of this might come of the whole Promise Keepers cult of neo-masculinity. Y'know "Man is head of the household", no matter if the economic reality in which we live usually requires both partners to earn money, or if the woman involved just doesn't want to be a homemaker stuck in a pseudo-1950s marriage.

 

[Zaha Torte]

At least it's a change from talking about how gay marriage destroys the marriages of all the rest of us.

Anything that distorts the truth or distracts us from the Lord Jesus Christ can potentially destroy us all.

 

[BCP1928]

Yeah. Uh...anyway, it seems like a lot of this might come of the whole Promise Keepers cult of neo-masculinity. Y'know "Man is head of the household", no matter if the economic reality in which we live usually requires both partners to earn money, or if the woman involved just doesn't want to be a homemaker stuck in a pseudo-1950s marriage.

I'm retired so I don't teach but I am still involved with kids in clubs and youth groups and I have an apparently endless supply of nieces and nephews. One thing I notice is that they are tending to quietly adopt an androgynous style in dress and behavior and--straight, gay or trans--are circumspect and noncommittal about their sexual orientation. It appears that they have figured out that the best way to avoid being a causality of the gender stereotype wars is for everybody to hide in the closet.

 

[Zaha Torte]

But you might have been a man who exhibited the ideas, emotions and social behavior we associate with femininity.

Can you give me a specific example of what you are referring to?

And even if this were the case - so what? A man cannot be a woman.

Who was it set by?

Each culture/society sets them and one of the purposes of the standard was to help people better differentiate between the sexes.

Really, speculating on the cause of trans is something of a red herring, as is speculating on the subjective feelings that may accompany it.

I clearly designated which was fact and which was my opinion.

Explain exactly how my sharing my opinion was a "red herring".

Because we can only go by overt, observable behavior.

You are free to limit your sources of truth.

However - no matter how a man behaves - he will never be a woman.

So - why do you focus only on behavior?

The issue is, that there are people* who, for whatever reason, do not wish to take up the gendered behaviors and social roles you have prescribed for them, and you have offered no good reason that they should.

I don't recall prescribing any "gendered behaviors and social roles".

Are you referring to my belief that we should marry and spend time with our spouse?

*Not just trans people, either. Steve has the whole list.

It does not really matter how we behave or what roles we want to take on - a man cannot be a woman.

It really is that simple.

Anyone who believes they are a member of the opposite sex - or they just want to appropriate the behaviors of the opposite sex in order to indulge their sexual fetish - need the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Zaha Torte]

The goal of the trans that I know is only to be accepted.

What does that mean?

They have no goal beyond that.

I still don't understand what that goal is - but do you deny the massive wave of pro-LGHDTV nonsense that is sweeping our nation?

My personal opinion is that some here are making stuff up.

Like what?

Acceptance of diversity is a good thing for humanity.

I disagree.

Not every idea is good. Not every idea is productive. Not every idea contributes to human flourishing.

Not every idea is true.

Diversity is good across the board for human area's like religion, racial diversity, politics, music, arts, ect.

Only truth is good. Only God is Good.

 

[Zaha Torte]

What statements am I refuting?

The ones that you yourself made.

You said, "That straight people can be converted to trans?" and "That trans people can't have children?"

Then you said that "both of those statements are false"

You are having a conversation with yourself.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Yeah. Uh...anyway, it seems like a lot of this might come of the whole Promise Keepers cult of neo-masculinity. Y'know "Man is head of the household", no matter if the economic reality in which we live usually requires both partners to earn money, or if the woman involved just doesn't want to be a homemaker stuck in a pseudo-1950s marriage.

The Man being the Head of his wife or household comes from the Bible - it is not new.

The Head or Leader of the household is not determined by who makes the most money.

Most women would be happier in the home with the children and the data proves that women are becoming more and more miserable each year.

The Man is always the Head of his wife - just as the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I'm retired so I don't teach but I am still involved with kids in clubs and youth groups and I have an apparently endless supply of nieces and nephews. One thing I notice is that they are tending to quietly adopt an androgynous style in dress and behavior and--straight, gay or trans--are circumspect and noncommittal about their sexual orientation. It appears that they have figured out that the best way to avoid being a causality of the gender stereotype wars is for everybody to hide in the closet.

This proves that what those who oppose the LGHDTV cult nonsense have always been correct.

 

[Zaha Torte]

I can't believe I read though pages and pages of this thread only to have it turn into another anti-trans thread.

What I don't get about that is that I think most people would agree that the level of prominence that trans issues and gender identity issues in general have been given in mainstream society has massively spiked in the last 20 years or so. That being the case, did the people who are convinced that trans issues are the absolute end of society think everything was going fine before 20 years ago? The answer is obviously no, since back then it was about Teletubbies turning your toddlers gay or something. So it's hard not to see the cyclical nature of the objections. True, "Gay people are doing coded stuff directed at our children!" has largely given way to this narrative where specifically trans people are openly preaching the greatness of transness to school children or something, but that's not much of an evolution, so I don't know why there's all this hue and cry about it now. So the teletubbies have become the transitubbies. Big whoop. In a few years, it will be something else. That's how the game is played. It's like how the 24-hour news cycle is effective by constantly coming out with some new thing that "could hurt your children", or arguably overreporting on an already existing danger as though it is suddenly extra-dangerous when nothing has really changed about the claim (e.g., no, people are not spiking your children's Halloween candy with drugs; it may have happened once somewhere from whence the larger claim came, but it's not really a thing).

I'm conservative as they come on matters of Christian belief and practice, but I'm so tired of this being the issue that I'm being told we have to care about and devote so much time to (not by my own Church, thank God, but by wider 'Christian society' in the western world) that I think it's pushing me to be more liberal on the issue than I might otherwise be. Granted, my own problems with LGBT-ism are the reductionism involved in making any part of the alphabet soup into some kind of primary vehicle for societal liberation or personal actualization or whatever (and, yes, I do have the same problem with people who make being straight into their defining identity, as though it's something they've achieved somehow), so I largely avoid the whole "But men are this and women are that!" aspect of the debate either way, but still...can we move on now, please? How do you all ever have any time to fast or pray or do outreach or whatever it is you do in your churches when somewhere, at some time there are people who self-identify as trans out there doing things? Somewhere in America right now, a 'trans person' is buying a bagel, and it's an insult to every bagel-loving Christian in the entire world and to God, I'll tell you what.

As a Christian I feel the need to spread the truth and to denounce falsehood.

It is obvious to anyone who relies on God's Word that Satan is using the LGHDTV cult as his vehicle to destroy the lives of everyone he can and drag their souls to Hell.

I am not ashamed of the truth of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Yes, trans is the hot issue just now, but this thread was meant to be inclusive of all forms of gender nonconformity, not just LGBT but women's lib, no-fault divorce, the feminization of men, etc.. It is gender nonconformity in all its forms which is responsible for the decline of western civilization, anything which causes men and women to depart in any way from the strict "masculine" and "feminine" stereotypes which Christians imagine as "biblical."

It is not only anti-Biblical - but it is contrary to human nature, happiness and flourishment.