Is Calvinism a heresy?

[RileyG]

I think a better analogy, according to Calvinist doctrine, would be that God would be a parent who intentionally had children for the specific purpose of punishing them for failing to meet impossible expectations that He placed upon them.

Thanks for the response!

 

[BNR32FAN]

Protestants reject the Eastern Orthodox Church as, just another man made religion teaching the false man centered gospel. So there's no way any Protestant would every consider embracing the teaching of the Orthodox Church.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, teach the same erroneous things while they ignore God's commandment regarding Idol worship. Both of these worship Statues and Icons, which amounts to Idol worship and that's an unforgivable sin.

All Protestants rejected the man made religions, that's why we're known as Protestants. We protest against all man made religion and call them out, for what they are. Our only authority is God Himself, we don't bow down to men or worship them. We only worship God, and reject everyone who disobeys God and preaches a false gospel.

Ok I’m not Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, or any other mainstream denomination and what you’re claiming here is a false accusation. Neither our Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox brethren worship idols or anyone other than God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And yet another "if you don't believe as I believe, then it is the false gospel" post. Seen it before, will see it again.

The term “Protestant” is a very broad definition. There are countless variations of Protestant theologies that contradict each other in their respective specific denominations within the Protestant community. So his statement was a very broad overgeneralization of Protestant theology.

 

[Dan1988]

And yet another "if you don't believe as I believe, then it is the false gospel" post. Seen it before, will see it again.

So you believe that everyone has their own truth and there is no absolute truth, but God's Word is subject to the thousands of different interpretations.

The Bible does warn us about that ideology, it says "all have gone astray, none seek the truth. Everyone does what's right in his own eyes".

 

[Dan1988]

You don't get to speak on behalf of all Protestants.

But it is sentiments like this which make Lutherans, such as myself, have an aversion to calling ourselves "Protestant"--though we are literally the first Protestants.

The term Protestant, by the way, never had anything to do with protesting Catholicism. As the original Protestants were Catholic. The term "Protestant" refers to a specific historical event in the Holy Roman Empire. At the First Imperial Diet at Speyer, the Holy Roman Emperor allowed the princes to determine what form of religion would be okay in their regions; that meant the Evangelical princes, and their subjects, were free to put the Evangelical reforms into practice (even if Rome was deeply opposed to this). At the Second Imperial Diet at Speyer, the emperor reversed this, and demanded all the princes enforce the Roman forms and loyalty to the Pope--the Evangelical princes protested this, it was a formal protest. This was known as the Protestation at Speyer, and those princes became known as "The Protestants". In time, "Protestant" became a term which applied more broadly, especially in English usage where King Henry VIII, who declared the English Church independent from Rome, still opposed "Protestantism". As time marched on, "Protestant" continued to grow in scope, not just referring to the Magisterial reform movements in Mainland Europe (aka Lutheran and Reformed), but would come to include the Radical Reformation, the English Reformation, and various post-Reformation movements such as the various Non-Conformist groups that emerged in Britain and her colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries (e.g. Baptists, Quakers, Methodists). New religious movements that emerged in the United States after its independence, also came under the "Protestant" monicker, no matter how far and removed they were from the spirit and teaching of the Reformation itself.

Today, in the United States "Protestant" and "Evangelical" are terms which mean very different things than they meant in the 16th century.

As an Evangelical Protestant, in the original sense of those terms--a Lutheran--I have far more in common with both Rome and Constantinople than I do with what "Protestant" means in a modern American context.

I love holy images. I receive and celebrate the Holy Sacraments as the insitution of Christ my God, as precious Means of Grace through which God works faith, justifies me, sanctifies me, and converts me. I rejoice in the holiness of the Mass, where I receive the true flesh and blood of Jesus Christ my Savior and hear the precious and holy word of God which declares the Good News of my salvation.

From where I sit, it is usually other "Protestants" who put faith into their works for salvation, who deny the power and efficaciosness of God's grace, and turn religion into a system of pious merit in which one's righteousness before God must be earned.

I'm not saved by believing the right things--that would be putting faith in my own works for salvation.

I'm saved by the once and done and perfect work of Christ, which I receive freely as pure grace in and through Word and Sacrament, whereby God in His infinite kindness declares me just for Christ's sake, and rescues me from the bondage of sin, death, hell, and the devil. I am, in Christ, a freeman; on the basis of what He has done, and what He gives, alone. That's Good News. Solus Chrisus, Christ alone saves me. Solus Christus Salvator.

-CryptoLutheran

OK, so you have chosen the Lutheran religion and you believe that it teaches biblically sound theology. I have chosen to join an independent Non Denominational Reformed Baptist Church, because I believe it teaches a biblically sound theology.

The problem with the Church as a whole is, the division over interpretation of scripture and over the question of authority. The Church is so divided that we can't have fellowship with other Churches who have an entirely different and opposing constitution and Church Government.

I have relatives and acquaintances from Denominational Churches, but I can't fellowship with them as we are radically opposed to each others doctrines. The reformed Church believes in election and predestination, while most other Churches teach that salvation is by works, so these are diametrically opposed to each other so we have nothing in common.

I read somewhere that there are 30+ main denominations and thousands more independent Churches. Most hold to radically different confessions and constitutional governments styles.

Ho can one know if they are being led by false teachers, since most average Church goers are not trained theologians so they rely on Minister to teach them. So the average Christian can easily be mislead into believing their team is the winning team.

Most people just stay in the Church they were born into, because it's a jungle out there and everyone likes to feel safety in numbers.

At the end of the day, we all hope God forgives us if we have been deceived by wolves in sheep's clothing. The Bible does say that God will punish those false teachers much more than the victim.

We're all in the same boat really, we all hope that we're right and everyone else is wrong. That's the human condition we all live with because of pride, which a deadly sin.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

So you believe that everyone has their own truth and there is no absolute truth, but God's Word is subject to the thousands of different interpretations.

I have chosen to join an independent Non Denominational Reformed Baptist Church, because I believe it teaches a biblically sound theology.

What then is your criteria for believing the Reformed Baptists have the corner on the market for the correct interpretation of Scripture? Does being born in Reformed Baptist church denomination automatically make it the church of absolute truth?

 

[Dan1988]

What then is your criteria for believing the Reformed Baptists have the corner on the market for the correct interpretation of Scripture? Does being born in Reformed Baptist church denomination automatically make it the church of absolute truth?

I was born into the Roman Catholic Church. I was happy and comfortable there because we were all taught that there is no salvation outside of the Roman Catholic Church. We were given many good reasons to believe this, and we were all happy in the knowledge that our eternal destiny was safe in the hands of the Church.

Everything was going well until I was invited to join some friends and visit the Pentecostal Hillsong Church and I had great fun jumping up and down to the music of the rock n' roll band. And the atmosphere was very relaxed, I meet lots of girls and decided it was more fun than the boring weekly mass.

My parents and relatives were not happy but the Deacons at Hillsong convinced me that, Roman Catholicism was outdated and no longer relevant in our modern age. I ended up leaving Hillsong after about 3 years to explore other Churches and see what they have to offer. I ended up very confused with all the different opposing doctrines these Churches were teaching.

All the other Churches mix tradition, ethnicity, political agendas, new age movements, progressiveness, extra biblical doctrines and all kinds of other worldly agendas to God's instructions and commandments.

I ended up joining an independent Nondenominational Calvinist Reformed Baptist Church. We are very conservative, so we model our Church on the Biblical model, the early Church was nothing like Romanism or Orthodoxy so we consider them to be false religions.

We are in the 3% of Churches who, take God at His word when He said that He chose His elect before He created the world and man has no influence over who was chosen for salvation and who was left condemned in their sin.

The other 97% teach that salvation is attained by repenting of sin and believing the gospel, so it comes down to mans choice to accept what God is offering and obey the gospel to receive salvation.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

We are in the 3% of Churches who, take God at His word when He said that He chose His elect before He created the world and man has no influence over who was chosen for salvation and who was left condemned in their sin.

The other 97% teach that salvation is attained by repenting of sin and believing the gospel, so it comes down to mans choice to accept what God is offering and obey the gospel to receive salvation.

I am not sure what you are trying so say. Are you a Calvinist or an Armenian? And are you saying only 3% of people who believe like you go to heaven?

so we model our Church on the Biblical model,

And by this you mean when it comes to Baptism you are an immersionist and reject the real presence in the Eucharist?

 

[BNR32FAN]

That's a lie and you know it. The Roman Catholics and the Orthodox worship idols. Mary worship is idol worship and so is Icon worship, I'm not some kid you can just easily fool. I'm on to you guys and I expose liars all the time

I’m not a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian, and I never have been. So why would I need to lie about it?

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK, so you have chosen the Lutheran religion and you believe that it teaches biblically sound theology. I have chosen to join an independent Non Denominational Reformed Baptist Church, because I believe it teaches a biblically sound theology.

The problem with the Church as a whole is, the division over interpretation of scripture and over the question of authority. The Church is so divided that we can't have fellowship with other Churches who have an entirely different and opposing constitution and Church Government.

I have relatives and acquaintances from Denominational Churches, but I can't fellowship with them as we are radically opposed to each others doctrines. The reformed Church believes in election and predestination, while most other Churches teach that salvation is by works, so these are diametrically opposed to each other so we have nothing in common.

I read somewhere that there are 30+ main denominations and thousands more independent Churches. Most hold to radically different confessions and constitutional governments styles.

Ho can one know if they are being led by false teachers, since most average Church goers are not trained theologians so they rely on Minister to teach them. So the average Christian can easily be mislead into believing their team is the winning team.

Most people just stay in the Church they were born into, because it's a jungle out there and everyone likes to feel safety in numbers.

At the end of the day, we all hope God forgives us if we have been deceived by wolves in sheep's clothing. The Bible does say that God will punish those false teachers much more than the victim.

We're all in the same boat really, we all hope that we're right and everyone else is wrong. That's the human condition we all live with because of pride, which a deadly sin.

If you want to know how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted the best place to find evidence for it isn’t found in 16th century theologians who’s theology has no evidence of it being taught before the 16th century and has been refuted by every single apostolic church that was established. The best place to find evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted is in the early church writings from the first two centuries. Writings from people who actually followed the apostles and were taught by them and their students.

 

[Dan1988]

I am not sure what you are trying so say. Are you a Calvinist or an Armenian? And are you saying only 3% of people who believe like you go to heaven?

And by this you mean when it comes to Baptism you are an immersionist and reject the real presence in the Eucharist?

I'm obviously a Calvinist, only around 3% of Churches are Calvinist in their doctrine. Thankfully the Lord Jesus Christ confirmed what we believe, that very few go to heaven and most are going to spend eternity in hell.

Jesus said, "broad is the road that leads to hell and many travel on it, but narrow is the gate that leads to heaven and few find it. I'm really glad He confirmed what we believe.

Yes we fully immerse in baptism and we reject the idea of the presence in the Eucharist, as Demonic doctrine straight from the pits of hell.

 

[Dan1988]

I’m not a Catholic or an Orthodox Christian, and I never have been. So why would I need to lie about it?

OK, you must have some motive for defending their false doctrines. You sound like a universalist who believes that everyone has their own truth so in your estimation there are 8 billion opposing truths out there. Good luck with that theory, you'll needs lots of luck to make any sense of that mass confusion movement.

 

[Dan1988]

If you want to know how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted the best place to find evidence for it isn’t found in 16th century theologians who’s theology has no evidence of it being taught before the 16th century and has been refuted by every single apostolic church that was established. The best place to find evidence of how the scriptures were intended to be interpreted is in the early church writings from the first two centuries. Writings from people who actually followed the apostles and were taught by them and their students.

OK, now I see where your coming from. You have placed your trust in man, rather than God. Men hate God so they pervert and twist His Word.

The Bible teaches us about Gods design for the Church. He gave us very clear instructions and the Apostles established the Christians Church. Not some Greeks or Italians in the second century

the Church was hijacked by the Pagan Romans and it remained under pagan Rome's control, until the 16th century when the Reformers went to war against Romanism and many were killed in that brutal war to liberate the Church from Pagan Romainism.

So now you know why nobody heard the true gospel before the 16th century. To preach the gospel was punishable by death and you're totally oblivious to the true facts of Christian Church history.

 

[Ain't Zwinglian]

Yes we fully immerse in baptism and we reject the idea of the presence in the Eucharist, as Demonic doctrine straight from the pits of hell.

I am out of this conversation and am going to stay far away from you.

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK, you must have some motive for defending their false doctrines. You sound like a universalist who believes that everyone has their own truth so in your estimation there are 8 billion opposing truths out there. Good luck with that theory, you'll needs lots of luck to make any sense of that mass confusion movement.

Wow, you could’ve ,instead of just jumping to conclusions without any evidence to support it, just clicked on my profile name and looked at some of my posts to get an idea of what I believe instead of just making up whatever false accusation that you thought would best discredit me as a biblical Christian. So I’m going to be blunt here. You say you’re not a child, but your reasoning and some statements you’ve made seem to suggest otherwise. You mentioned that you left the Catholic Church, joined a Hillsong Church, which is quite probably the most popular church for young believers, you enjoyed jumping around and dancing, also quite popular with youngsters, and you met some girls there, again something that youngsters typically like to brag about and that your parents disapproved, not something that adults typically mention in conversations. I see a lot of similarities here indicating a child’s or probably a teenager’s mentality. You like to jump to conclusions, make false accusations about people, your knowledge of the scriptures is obviously very limited, and your whole demeanor lacks evidence of maturity. So I see a lot of indications that you are in fact a kid. Adults don’t usually feel the need to say they’re not a kid just because someone disagrees with them because they’re not used to being treated like a kid. This is something a child says when he feels like he’s being treated like a child when he feels that someone doesn’t accept his knowledge as being worthy of regard. So I’m going to conclude from this evidence that you are in fact a child.

 

[BNR32FAN]

OK, now I see where your coming from. You have placed your trust in man, rather than God. Men hate God so they pervert and twist His Word.

The Bible teaches us about Gods design for the Church. He gave us very clear instructions and the Apostles established the Christians Church. Not some Greeks or Italians in the second century

the Church was hijacked by the Pagan Romans and it remained under pagan Rome's control, until the 16th century when the Reformers went to war against Romanism and many were killed in that brutal war to liberate the Church from Pagan Romainism.

So now you know why nobody heard the true gospel before the 16th century. To preach the gospel was punishable by death and you're totally oblivious to the true facts of Christian Church history.

No I haven’t placed my trust in man, it’s just common sense that if you want to know how the apostles intended for their writings to be interpreted that you could read the writings of their followers to find evidence. Going off of 16th century theologians is not the best place to find what the early church taught because they never attended the early church.

“Men hate God so they pervert and twist His Word”. Are you a man? Are the 16th century theologians men?

Rome didn’t hijack Christianity. In the 1st century BC Rome was persecuting Christians. For the first 300 years of Christianity, Christians were lion food as far as the Romans were concerned. The church in Rome had to hide and practice in secret and so did almost every other church under Roman jurisdiction. How many Christians do you think there were in the first two centuries? There were tens of thousands if not more. And they were spread out over thousands of miles. So your telling me that these tens of thousands of Christians who were spread out over thousands of miles who chose to believe in the faith even tho it meant persecution and in many cases even martyrdom, all of them conspired together to begin preaching a different gospel and there’s no evidence of anyone having any objections to it? Did you find this on some website or did you come up with this theory on your own? Tens of thousands of people willing to risk their life for their faith all conspired together to preach a different gospel?

“The apostles established the church”. Yeah they did, they also had followers, who do you think made up the church? Have you ever noticed the book of Romans in the Bible? Who do you think established that church? The church in Rome wasn’t always corrupted. You obviously have some issues with Roman Catholic theology and I don’t blame you, there’s a lot of things I refute about Roman Catholicism. But saying they worship Mary is a false accusation. Just because you disagree with their theology doesn’t mean it’s ok to make false accusations against them. That only discredits yourself as not having any credibility or integrity. So my advice would be to stick with the facts and try to keep in mind that they are in fact followers of Christ.

Can you show me examples of this Protestant/ Catholic war?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's a lie and you know it. The Roman Catholics and the Orthodox worship idols.

False. They do not.

Mary worship is idol worship and so is Icon worship, I'm not some kid you can just easily fool. I'm on to you guys and I expose liars all the time

Just because you've been told that they worship Mary, saints, etc as "idols" does not make it so.

There's no way to have a meaningful, and nuanced, conversation between Christians if we just always assume the worst about others.

I believe there is valid criticism to be made over Catholic Marian hyperdulia, but merely accusing Catholcis and Orthodox of idolatry is unhelpful.

As a Lutheran I reject Iconoclasm. I even have an icon of the Blessed Virgin with Child in my home. I kneel before the Cross/Crucifix, as an act of respect and honor to Christ my God and Lord. I stand at attention when the Gospel text is read, for Christ speaks here. I worship Christ in His body and blood when I receive Him in, with, and under the bread and wine of the Eucharist.

That, for many, would make me an idolator in their eyes. Of course it's not idolatry at all. These are historic ways Christians have always shown respect and honor, especially to our Lord Jesus Christ who is our God and Savior.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

we reject the idea of the presence in the Eucharist, as Demonic doctrine straight from the pits of hell.

You call the direct and explicit words of Christ your God demonic doctrines straight from the pit of hell?

Shameful.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BNR32FAN]

You call the direct and explicit words of Christ your God demonic doctrines straight from the pit of hell?

Shameful.

-CryptoLutheran

This guy has some serious issues. He just accused me of being a universalist like literally out of nowhere. I never said anything remotely related to universalism.

 

[Dan1988]

I am out of this conversation and am going to stay far away from you.

Yes of 'course you run from the awful truth. All of those who follow the man made works based formular for salvation, run from the biblical truth of the gospel. It's the normal reaction when one's religion is exposed.