I'm not sure I like the changes "pope" Benedict made to the Nicene Creed (I think it is)

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,589
27,001
Pacific Northwest
✟736,653.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Now you have me totally confused. The chair is occupied (not empty), and you recognize the authority of the chair (maybe), but not any occupant for hundreds of years?

Let's put it this way: Is the Chair of St. Andrew in Constantinople occupied or empty? Do you recognize the authority of St. Andrew's Chair? What about the occupants of the Chair since, let's say, 1054 AD?

I'm oversimplifying it a bit. Because there's more to it than that. But I hope you can see what I mean here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,542
16,344
Flyoverland
✟1,254,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Let's put it this way: Is the Chair of St. Andrew in Constantinople occupied or empty?
Occupied.
Do you recognize the authority of St. Andrew's Chair?
Not my bishopric but nonetheless a historic bishopric.
What about the occupants of the Chair since, let's say, 1054 AD?
Not my bishop but a validly ordained bishop.
I'm oversimplifying it a bit. Because there's more to it than that. But I hope you can see what I mean here.

-CryptoLutheran
I'm oversimplifying a bit as well. A bishopric either has or does not have a validly ordained bishop. If it doesn't, it's vacant. If it does then it does. The quality of the bishop may vary.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,589
27,001
Pacific Northwest
✟736,653.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Occupied.

Not my bishopric but nonetheless a historic bishopric.

Not my bishop but a validly ordained bishop.

I'm oversimplifying a bit as well. A bishopric either has or does not have a validly ordained bishop. If it doesn't, it's vacant. If it does then it does. The quality of the bishop may vary.

And there you have your answer.

The occupant of St. Peter's chair isn't my bishop. Nor do I recognize the claims of universal headship which the bishop of Rome claims to have, nor which the bishops and presbyters in communion with him claim he has.

The Chair of St. Peter is not unoccupied, rather its occupant is in a state of schism and rebellion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

discombobulated1

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2024
693
218
56
Claremore, OK
✟8,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Not EVERYONE knows that. Lots of people aren't old enough to have gone through the Latin -> English shock. Not everyone knows the losses from the old Liturgy. Some youngsters probably think the novus ordo is all that ever was, not even knowing that is is 'novus'. So it is not at all the 'common knowledge' that maybe it should be. It would be shocking to do an English -> Latin change, or even a major English -> English change without a careful preparation. It would. We are in need of change in the traditional direction, and now that we are a leaner Church we are probably more ready for it, but it could still be a shock for most in the pews. And those who seldom darken the door of the Church, well, they're already mostly gone anyway.

For worse or better, we do have a pope. The sedevacantist impulse is strong, but ultimately futile. To be Catholic is to have a seat of unity and that seat of unity is the bishop of Rome. Even when pope Francis is a bad pope. We have had numerous bad popes in the past. To be consistent, the sedevacantists would have to declare that every pope including Peter has lost his office and is no pope. Which is to say we are all popes in our own minds.

Yes the NO, at least as practiced in the majority of situations, is valid. It may be a low pass, but it can be done reverently. Which is why there is a listing of 'Reverent Catholic Masses' and it does include many NO locations.
I disagree w/ one thing u say here, though I get the part about being unified...

No, being consistent would not entail throwing out all the popes including St Peter.

Maybe the point could be made vis a vis the popes who were not canonized saints, but even then, that's a stretch.

I always felt we had valid popes until the death of Pius XII but I am not a professional scholar. I don't feel God is calling me to be one either. We all have our little niche in the world and we need to find it, the one God would prefer, which is not to say or imply that that is an easy thing but in any case

Francis is radically different from other bad popes. Most bad popes in the past were not heretical, just immoral. I don't know at this time whether Francis is a manifest or notorious heretic (looks like it, though) but he says heretical things, things no other pope said b4... Basically, he seems to be encouraging people to stay in their sin... the old "Who am I to say? [RE homosexuality]"--
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,542
16,344
Flyoverland
✟1,254,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I disagree w/ one thing u say here, though I get the part about being unified...

No, being consistent would not entail throwing out all the popes including St Peter.
Well, you have to decide why you throw them out, or at least why you throw out the first one.
Maybe the point could be made vis a vis the popes who were not canonized saints, but even then, that's a stretch.
Not being canonized does not necessarily mean they were evil or bad or heretical.
I always felt we had valid popes until the death of Pius XII but I am not a professional scholar.
Why do you feel pope John XXIII was an invalid pope? What evidence do you have?
Francis is radically different from other bad popes. Most bad popes in the past were not heretical, just immoral. I don't know at this time whether Francis is a manifest or notorious heretic (looks like it, though) but he says heretical things, things no other pope said b4... Basically, he seems to be encouraging people to stay in their sin... the old "Who am I to say? [RE homosexuality]"--
Francis IS different. Or maybe we had some previous popes that said some heretical things in private and believed some heretical things in private but nobody was there to stick a microphone in his face and put it on the internet. All we know is what we got from the official documents, the Bulls, the Encuclicals, the Motu Proprios, etc. If Francis wasn't recorded in every unwise word he uttered in public he might look only as bad as a Borgia pope. And not all of them were terrible.

Point is that you have to have a basis beyond feeling to say that John XXIII was not a valid pope. And a basis for all of the subsequent popes. And it has to be more substantial than not liking them. I don't like pope Francis. I have trouble with a lot that he says and does, both unofficially and officially. But until he breathes his last breath (or he is somehow canonically deposed) he's pope. A bad one, but still pope.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

discombobulated1

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2024
693
218
56
Claremore, OK
✟8,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Point is that you have to have a basis beyond feeling to say that John XXIII was not a valid pope. And a basis for all of the subsequent popes. And it has to be more substantial than not liking them. I don't like pope Francis.
There is massive presumption on internet forums, I have found.

Why do you ASSUME that all I have is feeling? Maybe you should read some of my posts. And there are others who have virtually (apparently...) the same level of knowledge of Church history (modern history) as I do.

Just a heads up: I do NOT go by feeling alone--on anything, to speak of.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,542
16,344
Flyoverland
✟1,254,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
There is massive presumption on internet forums, I have found.

Why do you ASSUME that all I have is feeling? Maybe you should read some of my posts. And there are others who have virtually (apparently...) the same level of knowledge of Church history (modern history) as I do.

Just a heads up: I do NOT go by feeling alone--on anything, to speak of.
In your last post to me you did say you 'feel' that the last pope was Pius XII. I just asked you how you substantiate that 'feeling'. Now you say you do have more than feelings. What was different about pope John XXIII to make him not a pope in your book?
 
Upvote 0

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,905
3,430
✟247,474.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Attacking Benedict/Ratzinger for restoring the traditional language of the Creed on the basis of some kind of Traditionalism, ultimately on the basis of personal preference on your part, just seems wild to me.
He may be a bit discombobulated.

The Chair of St. Peter is not unoccupied, rather its occupant is in a state of schism and rebellion.
Oh what basis? What would he need to do to come back into (the Lutheran notion of) union?
 
Upvote 0

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,507
5,334
✟839,178.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
<Snip>
Oh what basis? What would he need to do to come back into (the Lutheran notion of) union?
For me, Pope Francis and the College of Cardinals would need to accept the unaltered 1580 edition of the Book of Concord.

Sorry, I could not resist. ;)
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,589
27,001
Pacific Northwest
✟736,653.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Oh what basis? What would he need to do to come back into (the Lutheran notion of) union?

Well, embracing the true doctrine of the Gospel, that a person is justified by God's grace through faith, and not by works would be paramount. But in addition it would also mean a renunciation of the entire papal institution, as it is contrary to the doctrine and practice of the Church Catholic.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zippy2006

Dragonsworn
Nov 9, 2013
6,905
3,430
✟247,474.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Well, embracing the true doctrine of the Gospel, that a person is justified by God's grace through faith, and not by works would be paramount.
Okay.

But in addition it would also mean a renunciation of the entire papal institution, as it is contrary to the doctrine and practice of the Church Catholic.
And does this have historic Lutheran basis or is it only your personal opinion? Did the early Reformers have some sort of episcopal ecclesiology, such that anyone who deviates from it is in "schism and rebellion"?
 
Upvote 0

discombobulated1

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2024
693
218
56
Claremore, OK
✟8,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Why do you feel pope John XXIII was an invalid pope? What evidence do you have?
He opened up the 2nd Vatican Council and supported it, and as far as I can tell, supported and promoted it until his dying day.

Was he canonized, as some were calling for? I say he should definitely not have been. He helped all those who were bent on destroying the Church. And my own life has been REALLY messed up because of all that. And YES, I see and experience a connection. .. definitely, btwn V2 and MY personal life afterward--it's huge --UNDENIABLE--and I am sure I speak for others, whether they have made such a connection in their own minds or not
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,470
5,841
49
The Wild West
✟491,692.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Well, embracing the true doctrine of the Gospel, that a person is justified by God's grace through faith, and not by works would be paramount.

But you know, there is no evidence that the early Church ever actually believed that idea specifically. Nor, conversely, is there any evidence that they did not, because the early Church did not talk that much about justification; rather, their position was one where salvation was by grace, through faith, but also entailed salvific works.

Now, ecumenical reconciliation between Lutherans and other churches is possible on this issue, based on the idea that when St. James the Just wrote “faith without works is dead,” the good works could be seen as the result of a living faith that was salvific rather than hypocritical. Whereas someone who did have a living faith, but was rather a hypocrite, would not be expected to produce good works, but rather would engage in evil deeds consistently due to their hypocrisy.

I regard this as possible, since the Orthodox position clearly makes faith a prerequisite - there is no disagreement on the point that salvation is by faith. After all, John 3:16 says as much, and we also have the Good Thief. And since Lutherans are sacramental, obviously it is not the case that baptism or the Eucharist would be seen as works, nor the process of enrolling as a catechumen (Orthodoxy maintains that if a catechumen dies before baptism, they are still saved, and I believe Rome asserts something similiar, the Baptism of Desire). And furthermore, we believe that if someone is martyred, that constitutes the Baptism of Blood, and we disagree with the Roman Catholics, in that while they do regard that as salvific, we regard it as instantly glorifying, so if an Orthodox Christian is martyred (whether Eastern or Oriental), they become a saint instantly.

Now, the reason why I am talking about Orthodoxy in this context, is because it is obvious that the sequence of events that led to the decline of the Papacy into the state of corruption that prompted Martin Luther to initiate his reforms began in the late 7th century when the Roman church began to doctrinally drift away from the Eastern Orthodox Church; the symptoms of this were masked for a time by Roman resistance to iconoclasm, which endeared Rome to iconodule bishops in the East who were fighting the Iconoclast heretics who had managed to seize control of the Church of Constantinope. But following the Triumph of Orthodoxy, immediately there followed the Filioque Controversy, which was the first in a series of major cracks that began to appear, and these resulted in a rupture of communion, with the Patriarch of Constantinople being excommunicated by Rome in 1054, and the Patriarch of Antioch being excommunicated in 1078, and then the crusades happened, in which Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Christians were in some cases cannibalized by crusaders in the First Crusade, and in all of the Crusades, the Orthodox suffered, but none moreso than the Fourth Crusade, which was supposedly raised to attack the Holy Land, but which was diverted by Venice to attack and conquer the Byzantine Empire, which the Venetians regarded as a threat to their power. And this, along with the West predicating military assistance to save the Empire from Turkocratia, on the acceptance of the Council of Florence, which the laity rejected less than a hundred years before the Lutheran reformation, simultaneously with the reformation in Prague under St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, who are venerated as martyrs by the Orthodox Church, was really the last straw.

By the way the last bit I think is important. Since Moravian theology was close to Lutheran theology, at least until it was corrupted by the radical Pietisim of Count Zizendorf, the fact that the founders of the Moravian church are regarded, at least by the Orthodox Church of the Czech Lands and Slovakia, as martyrs, I think bodes well for the prospect of reconciliation.

But what I would not want to see would be a scenario where the Pope of Rome embraced a Lutheranism that was incompatible in its expression with Orthodoxy, because all this would do is continue the East-West schism, and it would also likely alienate more Catholics than if the Pope merely embraced Orthodoxy, since Rome has in recent years made a point of praising our theology extensively and publically as part of the process of ecumenical reconciliation (cynically, I would say it was partially done in the hope that perhaps the Antiochians would have agreed to merge with the Melkites, and more than that, to prop up the Eastern Catholic Churches and discourage conversions from Eastern Catholicism to Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy.
 
Upvote 0

discombobulated1

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2024
693
218
56
Claremore, OK
✟8,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
Well, embracing the true doctrine of the Gospel, that a person is justified by God's grace through faith, and not by works would be paramount. But in addition it would also mean a renunciation of the entire papal institution, as it is contrary to the doctrine and practice of the Church Catholic.

-CryptoLutheran
Why do people assume that just because you cannot save yourself (who argues w/ that?), that only God can (ditto) that you don't have to do any good works?!

Where is THAT in scripture or Church teaching?

People are always drawing false conclusions, which are more from their own minds than from Scripture (rightly interpreted) or Church teaching... a dangerous thing, to be sure-- dangerous in light of what Jesus said, namely that

FEW find the narrow Way to Heaven
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,470
5,841
49
The Wild West
✟491,692.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
But in addition it would also mean a renunciation of the entire papal institution, as it is contrary to the doctrine and practice of the Church Catholic.

Just to clarify what you mean on this point, I assume you don’t have a problem with, for instance, the Greek Orthodox and Coptic Orthodox Popes of Alexandria, because they have never claimed Papal Supremacy or Papal Infallibility, but rather, the title Pope, which was first used in Alexandria 300 years before the Roman bishops started using it, is simply used by the Patriarchs of these churches to indicate their status as primus inter pares.

So to be clear, by the Papal Institution, would I be correct in that you are referring to the system in the Roman Catholic Church wherein the Pope alone has powers that in all other churches of Episcopal polity, are distributed to all the bishops, and where the Pope alone is referred to as the Vicar of Christ, and is regarded as the supreme bishop, primus sine paribus, whose theological statements proclaimed ex cathedra are infallibile, and who is furthermore elected not by the Holy Synod or another entity comprised of either all the bishops or representatives of the bishops, as well as, in Anglicanism, representatives of the laity and the presbyters, but rather is elected by a handpicked group of super-bishops, the College of Cardinals, who are appointed only by the Popes, and thus allow a Pope to exert much more influence on the identity of his successor than would have been allowed by the ancient canons of the early church? Because these, to me, seem to be the distinguishing characteristics of the Papal Institution.

My understanding of the Papal Institution is not so much the use of the title Pope, since St. Gregory the Dialogist, also known as St. Gregory the Great, used it, and he expressly condemned the idea of a bishop exercising universal jurisdiction based on a fear (which is now, just over 1400 years later, proving to be warranted, due to disturbing statements by the Metropolitan of Bursa, who has since been promoted to Archbishop of North America and will quite likely succeed Patriarch Bartholomew) that the use of the title “Ecumenical Patriarchate” by his colleague John the Faster, the Patriarch of of Constantinople, would lead to that bishop claiming universal jurisdiction, which is also obviously something his successors claimed. And he claimed that this would make whoever claimed such the “precursor to the anti-Christ.”

Additionally, to review, the other aspects of the Papal Institution as I see it that are a problem and would need to be abolished as part of a return to Orthodoxy by the Roman church include:

  • The ability of the Pope to promulgate infallible dogmatic statements ex cathedra, which could potentially be new doctrines or even contradict doctrines previously held, this point being uncertain.
  • The Supremacy of the Pope, wherein the Pope alone exercises jurisdiction over the entire Roman Catholic Church and alone has several powers that in all other churches are either non-existent or are held by all diocesan bishops.
  • The ability of the Pope to influence the choice of his successor via his ability to appoint people to the College of Cardinals, in violation of the canons of the early church which prohibit bishops from doing that.
  • The claim by the Pope to be the sole Vicar of Christ.
  • The ability of the Pope to issue indulgences.
  • The reservation of certain other authorities to the Pope which bishops in other churches, even presiding bishops such as Orthodox Patriarchates and the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, do not have.

If those issues were corrected, would that suffice from your perspective? Or did I miss some other important aspect of the Papal Institution you regard as offensive?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,542
16,344
Flyoverland
✟1,254,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
He opened up the 2nd Vatican Council and supported it, and as far as I can tell, supported and promoted it until his dying day.

Was he canonized, as some were calling for? I say he should definitely not have been. He helped all those who were bent on destroying the Church. And my own life has been REALLY messed up because of all that. And YES, I see and experience a connection. .. definitely, btwn V2 and MY personal life afterward--it's huge --UNDENIABLE--and I am sure I speak for others, whether they have made such a connection in their own minds or not
So you believe pope John XXIII couldn't be a valid pope because he called for Vatican II and started Vatican II and supported and promoted Vatican II until he died. Is that correct? Why is that sufficient for him to not be a validly chosen pope, particularly in the time before he announced that there would be a new council?

He was canonized.

Did he directly collaborate with those bent on destroying the Catholic Church? Who are those people and how did he directly collaborate with them?
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

discombobulated1

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2024
693
218
56
Claremore, OK
✟8,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
So you believe pope John XXIII couldn't be a valid pope because he called for Vatican II and started Vatican II and supported and promoted Vatican II until he died. Is that correct? Why is that sufficient for him to not be a validly chosen pope, particularly in the time before he announced that there would be a new council?

He was canonized.

Did he directly collaborate with those bent on destroying the Catholic Church? Who are those people and how did he directly collaborate with them?
well, addressing your last Q first: They don't call them "secret societies" for nothing. Much has been kept secret from the general population (worldwide population) about many things, even in the secular world. Secret societies have been working for centuries to infiltrate and demolish the Catholic Church. They finally (more or less) succeeded. they always wanted a pope who would do THEIR bidding and they apparently found one in John XXIII. I only use the word "apparently" because I am still studying all this craziness...

For another thing, I never said he was not a valid pope, though it can be presumed or surmised that someone who works w/ the Church's enemies to destroy it is exactly that (?), though there is the defense of not really understanding that he was doing that(?). God knows.... and again, yours truly is trying to understand what maybe only God really knows... (this whole issue of when or how a pope should be deposed... and related matters)
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,542
16,344
Flyoverland
✟1,254,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
well, addressing your last Q first: They don't call them "secret societies" for nothing. Much has been kept secret from the general population (worldwide population) about many things, even in the secular world. Secret societies have been working for centuries to infiltrate and demolish the Catholic Church. They finally (more or less) succeeded. they always wanted a pope who would do THEIR bidding and they apparently found one in John XXIII. I only use the word "apparently" because I am still studying all this craziness...
The Masons did show some pleasure at the election of pope John XXIII, but then I even showed some (very small) pleasure that Obama was the first African American president of the USA. That was a good thing hidden among a lot of bad things and some neutral things. I think the Masons were the same way, looking on what they considered to be the bright side.

The Masons (and the Communists) worked hard to infiltrate the Catholic Church. But that doesn't make Vatican II bad to have been called, or bad in it's documents. Most of the bad following Vatican II was done by bureaucrats who went beyond what Vatican II said. That was what the 'spirit of Vatican II' was about. Had they kept to the letter of Vatican II things would have been much better.
For another thing, I never said he was not a valid pope, though it can be presumed or surmised that someone who works w/ the Church's enemies to destroy it is exactly that (?), though there is the defense of not really understanding that he was doing that(?). God knows.... and again, yours truly is trying to understand what maybe only God really knows... (this whole issue of when or how a pope should be deposed... and related matters)
You did say you felt that pope Pius XII was the last valid pope. Now it seems you have some doubts.

Have you yet read the biography of John XXIII, called 'Journal of a Soul'?
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

discombobulated1

Well-Known Member
Mar 25, 2024
693
218
56
Claremore, OK
✟8,412.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Celibate
The Masons did show some pleasure at the election of pope John XXIII, but then I even showed some (very small) pleasure that Obama was the first African American president of the USA. That was a good thing hidden among a lot of bad things and some neutral things. I think the Masons were the same way, looking on what they considered to be the bright side.

The Masons (and the Communists) worked hard to infiltrate the Catholic Church. But that doesn't make Vatican II bad to have been called, or bad in it's documents. Most of the bad following Vatican II was done by bureaucrats who went beyond what Vatican II said. That was what the 'spirit of Vatican II' was about. Had they kept to the letter of Vatican II things would have been much better.

You did say you felt that pope Pius XII was the last valid pope. Now it seems you have some doubts.

Have you yet read the biography of John XXIII, called 'Journal of a Soul'?
sigh. I really wish people would STOP putting words in my mouth! WHEN did I say I "felt that pope Pius XII was the last valid pope [and] Now... have doubts"?

I absolutely do NOT have doubts, to speak of (that Pius XII was the last valid pope). Where did you get that?

and no I have not read John XXIII's book, have no desire to either
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,542
16,344
Flyoverland
✟1,254,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
sigh. I really wish people would STOP putting words in my mouth! WHEN did I say I "felt that pope Pius XII was the last valid pope [and] Now... have doubts"?

I absolutely do NOT have doubts, to speak of (that Pius XII was the last valid pope). Where did you get that?
Post 44 "I always felt we had valid popes until the death of Pius XII"

Now I am confused. Is it that you have no doubts that pope Pius XII was the last pope? Please help a confused old man understand whether you are a sedevacantist or not, and who you think the last valid pope was. And why. I am not trying to put any words in your mouth. Just to understand you. I thought you just said John XXIII was not a valid pope because of his support of Vatican II.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0