Arminianism provides an excuse for those in hell

[Skala]

The point remains: using Freegrace2's HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE logic, non-Calvinism/synergism/FreeGrace2ism provides an excuse for those in hell:

God didn't save them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this to DM:

Good choice. If you can't say something nice to someone, you say anything at all.

And he responds with this:

FG2, your a hypocrite.

Sweet. You just demonstrated exactly what a hypocrite is. You said you weren't going to engage in any more conversation with me, and here you are posting to me. That, sir, IS what a hypocrite DOES.

And my statement stands. There is nothing hypocritical about it. You did make a good choice, but you violated your own claim. Which was a bad choice.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The point remains: using Freegrace2's HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE logic, non-Calvinism/synergism/FreeGrace2ism provides an excuse for those in hell:

God didn't save them.

Exactly. Because He didn't choose them, and Christ didn't die for them.

It's real funny that you guys are distancing yourselves from the real issue here, which is your view of election and limited atonement, the ONLY reasons anyone goes to heaven.

So, by your continued distancing yourselves from the centerpiece of your own theology, you have demonstrated quite well that the OP is correct, but you just won't admit it.

So you throw your centerpiece under the bus, bud. LOL

Calvinism's election is the REASON people go to heaven.
Calvinism's election is the EXCUSE for people in hell. They weren't chosen.

Hey, Skala, how about this: do you agree or disagree with each of these 2 statements?

Meaning, if either one is wrong (you don't agree), then explain why the statement is wrong. Thanks.

 

[Skala]

Calvinism's election is the REASON people go to heaven.

That's synonymous with saying "Grace is the reason people to go heaven" as unconditional election is an act of free grace and mercy on God's part.

Do you agree that grace is the reason people are in heaven?

Calvinism's election is the EXCUSE for people in hell. They weren't chosen.

This is where you are totally incorrect. SIN is the reason for people in hell. God doesn't have to give mercy to people in order for their being in hell due to their sin to be just.

Yet again, for the 5th time, you show that you really don't believe sin deserves hell.

You keep spiralling deeper and deeper into unorthodoxy.

Hey, Skala, how about this: do you agree or disagree with each of these 2 statements?

Meaning, if either one is wrong (you don't agree), then explain why the statement is wrong. Thanks.

Done, for the billionth time.

 

[Anoetos]

People go to hell because they deserve hell. It is all anyone deserves.This includes me.

People go to heaven because God, in Christ redeems them. But He does not redeem all of them.

The causal agent of their redemption is not faith. It is His electing love; this is pure grace.

The astonishing thing is not that anyone goes to hell but that anyone goes to heaven.

But the take away here is that anyone going to hell goes there because he or she deserves it; he or she is a sinner. How is this an excuse?

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's synonymous with saying "Grace is the reason people to go heaven" as unconditional election is an act of free grace and mercy on God's part.

Not really. Yes, grace is involved when anyone is saved. But my statement stands, that the ONLY reason anyone goes to heaven is because of your view of election. Why are you now distancing yourself from your centerpiece theology?

Do you agree that grace is the reason people are in heaven?

Of course I do. But you for some reason are distancing yourself from the FACT that Calvinism's limited theology on election and atonement are the REASON that people are in hell, which gives them an excuse for not being chosen. Why are you now denying or dodging what is your theology's centerpiece?

This is where you are totally incorrect. SIN is the reason for people in hell.

Hogwash. People are in hell BECAUSE they weren't chosen!!!!!!!!! Why are you running from your theology's centerpiece? LOL

God doesn't have to give mercy to people in order for their being in hell due to their sin to be just.

I never said He did. But quit dodging the issue.

Yet again, for the 5th time, you show that you really don't believe sin deserves hell.

Well, maybe not to you, but that's not my fault. I've been clear enough. So, here it is again for you: everyone deserves hell, but, according to Calvinism, God ONLY chosen a few for heaven, thereby NOT choosing the rest for heaven. That gives them an excuse. Got it?

You keep spiralling deeper and deeper into unorthodoxy.

I'm showing just how unorthodox your limited theology is.

Done, for the billionth time.

Uh, I didn't ask you a billion times. So your answer is disingenuous, as usual.

I asked you 2 questions. And you have dodged them, AND are distancing yourself from your theology's centerpiece, which is hilarious, really.

 

[FreeGrace2]

People go to hell because they deserve hell. It is all anyone deserves.This includes me.

But if you are going to heaven, it is ONLY because God chose you and Christ died for you.

People go to heaven because God, in Christ redeems them. But He does not redeem all of them.

Right. He ONLY chooses some for heaven, leaving all the others with an excuse for not being in heaven: "I wasn't chosen". Period.

The causal agent of their redemption is not faith. It is His electing love; this is pure grace.

And quite the limited "electing love", eh? Again, they were chosen, others were not. Why are you distancing yourself from your theology's centerpiece?

The astonishing thing is not that anyone goes to hell but that anyone goes to heaven.

No. What's really astonishing is that Calvinism's view of election and atonement actually gives people in hell an excuse for being there: they weren't chosen. And you all are distancing yourselves from your centerpiece.

But the take away here is that anyone going to hell goes there because he or she deserves it; he or she is a sinner. How is this an excuse?

But so do the ones going to heaven, yet, they aren't going to hell. Why? Because they were chosen, and the others were not chosen.

Why in the world are y'all distancing yourselves from the centerpiece of your theology of election and atonement.

It's almost as if you're ashamed of your limited theology, and don't want to admit that choice is the ONLY DIFFERENCE between heaven and hell dwellers. LOL

 

[Skala]

Freegrace:

If God decided to not create a salvation plan, and all people ended up in hell, would God be just in His decision?

 

[Skala]

Freegrace2, your logic is horrific

The reason people go to hell = their sins

The reason people go to heaven = God's grace

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding. You're so bent on making Calvinism look as bad as possible that you completely disregard the fact that sin deserves hell, and God isn't obligated to save them.

The bottom line is you keep trying to make God unjust by not saving the ones in hell, yet you contradict your own thinking by saying out of the other side of your mouth that you do believe sin deserves hell.

If sin deserves hell, where is the injustice in God choosing to not save people?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Freegrace2, your logic is horrific

The reason people go to hell = their sins

The reason people go to heaven = God's grace

I don't see any logic from you. You admit that ONLY the chosen go to heaven and ONLY the non-chosen go to hell. Or do you now deny that? So....

The reason people go to hell = they weren't chosen

The reason people go to heaven = they were chosen

Either admit this or deny this, please.

I'm not sure what you aren't understanding.

It's rather clear who isn't understanding. Please answer my question.

You're so bent on making Calvinism look as bad as possible that you completely disregard the fact that sin deserves hell, and God isn't obligated to save them.

Have I not ALWAYS acknowledged that the entire human race deserves hell?? Where have you been? Of course I haven't disregarded that fact. But why aren't you even addressing the the issue of being chosen or not?

The bottom line is you keep trying to make God unjust by not saving the ones in hell, yet you contradict your own thinking by saying out of the other side of your mouth that you do believe sin deserves hell.

No, I've never done that. I AM pointing out that ONLY the chosen go to heaven, and ONLY the non-chosen go to hell. Please answer my question: do you admit that or deny that?

If sin deserves hell, where is the injustice in God choosing to not save people?

I'm NOT talking about justice OR injustice. I AM making the point that -

ONLY the chosen go to heaven, while

ONLY the non-chosen go to hell.

Please either admit that or deny that. Please. One or the other. You can't do both.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don't see any logic from you. You admit that ONLY the chosen go to heaven and ONLY the non-chosen go to hell. Or do you now deny that? So....

The reason people go to hell = they weren't chosen

The reason people go to heaven = they were chosen

Either admit this or deny this, please.


It's rather clear who isn't understanding. Please answer my question.


Have I not ALWAYS acknowledged that the entire human race deserves hell?? Where have you been? Of course I haven't disregarded that fact. But why aren't you even addressing the the issue of being chosen or not?


No, I've never done that. I AM pointing out that ONLY the chosen go to heaven, and ONLY the non-chosen go to hell. Please answer my question: do you admit that or deny that?


I'm NOT talking about justice OR injustice. I AM making the point that -

ONLY the chosen go to heaven, while

ONLY the non-chosen go to hell.

Please either admit that or deny that. Please. One or the other. You can't do both.

I addressed this to Skala. Wonder why no answer from him. I made it very clear for him to respond. Will he?

 

[Don Maurer]

................... Why are you now distancing yourself from your centerpiece theology?


..... But you for some reason are distancing yourself from the FACT that Calvinism's limited theology on election and atonement are the REASON that people are in hell, which gives them an excuse for not being chosen. Why are you now denying or dodging what is your theology's centerpiece?


Hogwash. People are in hell BECAUSE they weren't chosen!!!!!!!!! Why are you running from your theology's centerpiece? LOL


I never said He did. But quit dodging the issue.


Well, maybe not to you, but that's not my fault. I've been clear enough. So, here it is again for you: everyone deserves hell, but, according to Calvinism, God ONLY chosen a few for heaven, thereby NOT choosing the rest for heaven. That gives them an excuse. Got it?


I'm showing just how unorthodox your limited theology is.


Uh, I didn't ask you a billion times. So your answer is disingenuous, as usual.

I asked you 2 questions. And you have dodged them, AND are distancing yourself from your theology's centerpiece, which is hilarious, really.

FG2 rarely completes a sentence without making accusations. See the bolded and underlined statements above. He is not actually contributing anything of value.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FG2 rarely completes a sentence without making accusations. See the bolded and underlined statements above. He is not actually contributing anything of value.

2 of the eight bolded statements were questions for Calvinists. The other 6 were statements that Calvinists are dodging the issue.

Instead of your "clever" post here, why not rather just answer my questions of why you are dodging the centerpiece of your theology, election and atonement?

If you don't answer the questions, then my "accusations" are true statements.

Your serve.

 

[Don Maurer]

2 of the eight bolded statements were questions for Calvinists. The other 6 were statements that Calvinists are dodging the issue.

Instead of your "clever" post here, why not rather just answer my questions of why you are dodging the centerpiece of your theology, election and atonement?

If you don't answer the questions, then my "accusations" are true statements.

Your serve.

Again, he cannot finish a paragraph without making some sort of accusation.

 

[Anoetos]

Telling people what they believe and insisting they defend your formulation of their beliefs is a sure way to irritate folks.

 

[nobdysfool]

Again, he cannot finish a paragraph without making some sort of accusation.

Oh, but his accusations are "true statements", so that means they're not accusations anymore, even though they clearly are.

As for why he can't get an answer from someone, it could be that this person simply is tired of the baiting and goading, and has decided to move on. That does not mean that he has conceded the points, or the argument, only that he tires of the accusations and being told what he believes, as though he wouldn't have known otherwise, which is insulting on its face.

Insulting your opponent is not debate.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

And I've shown that Calvinism's warped view of the atonement and election provides an excuse for the ones not picked.

In Calvinism, it's all about being chosen. In the Bible, God HAS eternal life for everyone. Those who reject the gift can't live with God in eternity.

Am I glad we both love the Gospel of John...

John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

John 17:2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.


In the Bible, God the Father and God the Son, choose to give eternal life to the sheep, not the non-believing goats, wolves, children of the devil. Those who reject, were never born of the Spirit, born of the will of God. This is what the Bible tells us, contrary to your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Am I glad we both love the Gospel of John...

Excellent!

In the Bible, God the Father and God the Son, choose to give eternal life to the sheep, not the non-believing goats, wolves, children of the devil.

Do you have any verses that say this? I'm not aware of a single one.

Those who reject, were never born of the Spirit, born of the will of God. This is what the Bible tells us, contrary to your claims.

Actually, what IS contrary to the Bible is the claim that one is born of the Spirit in order to accept eternal life. It is you who has it backward.

I'm awaiting all those verses that you must certainly have that supports your claims here. Please share.

 

[Don Maurer]

Do you have any verses that say this? I'm not aware of a single one.


Actually, what IS contrary to the Bible is the claim that one is born of the Spirit in order to accept eternal life. It is you who has it backward.

I'm awaiting all those verses that you must certainly have that supports your claims here. Please share.

Every Calvinist here knows the same verse that will be used to answer this question. Is FG2 the only one who does not know the verse every Calvinist will use concerning sheep?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Every Calvinist here knows the same verse that will be used to answer this question. Is FG2 the only one who does not know the verse every Calvinist will use concerning sheep?

And that verse doesn't help you at all. I expect you are referring to John 10:11-
I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for THE sheep.

v.15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for THE sheep.

There is no mention of goats or any other animals in ch 10 other than wolves, which are not being compared with people, as sheep are. Much less "children of the devil".

But one must also consider these verses as well:
v.7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.

OK, Jesus is the door of THE sheep and He lays down His life for THE sheep.

v.10 I am the door; if anyone (any sheep) enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Should be very clear that in His figure of speech, Jesus is referring to ANY sheep who enters by Him, the door.

v.26 But you do not believe because you are not of MY sheep.

So, what is Jesus saying here? The unbelieving Jews were not HIS sheep; not that they weren't sheep. And He was clear that He lay down His life for THE sheep.

V.11,15 are statements that Jesus would die for everyone, not just "HIS" sheep.

So again, DM, what verse will you now use in your defense?