Age Of The Universe

[seekingHiswisdom]

As a newbie here, and just starting to explore all you offer I want to post my ideas on Old eart or young earth creationism.

As a Christian I have zero doubt that God did create everything. However, I do not, for one minute believe that
all came about in 144 literal hours.

I participated in many a heated discussion in another forum until that forum has gone down, and no idea if it will ever come back.

Those YEC believers cite creation "week" as their "proof" based in part on the 4th commandment

NASB95 Exodus 20 :8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who [e]stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

They reason that if Moses was given the 10 commandments by God, Himself, that God would not lie.

What in not covered anywhere within the four corners of the Holy Book is the explanation of what a day truly is or how long... or if they are 24 hours... it could be possible day one when light was created... could have been spaced far apart from day two... etc.

It had long been my contention .. and please dont think I am crazy with this thought... but I have long felt that the creation of Adam and Eve ( remember: if we had the ability to trace our genealogies back far enough we would all arrive at Adam and Eve being out start.) and we know that we are approximately 6,000 years from them to today...
that somehow that leg of creation was tied somehow to the fall of Satan.

No... I have no proof.... just a gut feeling.

But I digress.

Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 seem to have been written by 2 different people simply because the writing styles
are different.

In Gen 2 Adam was created, was shown the animals looking for a helper, (none was found) so God made Eve for him. In Gen 1 man and woman were made together in the image of God....

NASB95
Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [ak]sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the [al]sky and over every living thing that [am]moves on the earth.”

In Gen 1 they were to care for the earth. Adam and Eve were originally only to be in the Garden.

To me this indicates that when the Gen 1 people were created.... it was before Adam and Eve in Gen 2.

If so then there is no reason to believe that the original creation of things was not a lot older then the Garden of Eden creations.

Fact: there have been " cave people" and dinosaures. But not talked of in the bible....Why? Could it be because they
were extinct before modern man came into being?

But I will say this for the record.

When science says the earth and all are 13.8 billion years old I will not ever believe that.

At least not as far as blood flowing life is concerned.

The furthest back to recognizable life such as ... dinosaurs they datng to 201 to 145 million years ago.

And I say recognizable because we all are familiar with what the museums present to us....

However when Wiki says the following I siimply shake my head in disbelief at to how old they claim them to be.

Earliest known life forms - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

organisms.

Evidence of possibly the oldest forms of life on Earth has been found in hydrothermal vent precipitates.[1][2][3]
The earliest known life forms on Earth are believed to be fossilized microorganisms found in hydrothermal vent precipitates, considered to be about 3.42 billion years old.[1][2] The earliest time for the origin of life on Earth is at least 3.77 billion years ago, possibly as early as 4.28 billion years ago[2][4][5]—not long after the oceans formed 4.5 billion years ago, and after the formation of the Earth 4.54 billion years ago.[2][3][6][7] The earliest direct evidence of life on Earth is from microfossils of microorganisms permineralized in 3.465-billion-year-old Australian Apex chert rocks,[8][9] although the validity of these microfossils is debated.[10]
to recognizable life

So sorry I am rambling... (I tend to do that) so will close for now with saying I do not believe that the earth and our solar system is only 6,000 years old.

But I am certain it is not 13.8 billion years old.

I also have not drawn a conclusion yet, and would love some input from someone if they feel that all the galaxies and universes out there could have been in existence... either at once or progressively (NO I am not suggesting big bang or expansion for I believe our great creator God drew up the plans and then they came into being)

But then , for reasons of His own, our own solar system came into being at a much younger age?

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK a couple of things to consider...

I have concluded that God is presently in the seventh day of creation otherwise how could we be invited to enter His Sabbath rest?

That suggests days are epochs.

Secondly the dating systems we have depend on linear time, whereas if you graph the ages of the patriarchs the curve is close to a growth curve.

Could it be that time has changed it's rate and we are currently on the flat part of the curve?

This would mean that our dating systems are misleading.

Thirdly the topic is one to muse over and there are more matters central to faith to chew over. St Peter will not be asking if you believed in creation in 144 hours.

Lastly God can create with time built in - vintage wine for example.

 

[sparow]

Do you believe God created the Universe billions of years ago or approx. 6,000 years ago and why?
Also, is there any credible, scientific evidence for a young earth?

Evidence as opposed to proof, Uranium has a half life of 3000 to six thousand years; if the world was billions of years old there should not be any uranium left.

Time is not a thing, time is a measurement, motion quantized. The human brain and the universe as we know it is locked into a time frame, but this could be creation also; the universe may appear to be older, but it could have been created to appear that way.

Time in a black hole could be very different to time in a hot star, especially in terms of what motion is being quantized, and by whom.

 

[seekingHiswisdom]

FaithT said:
Do you believe God created the Universe billions of years ago or approx. 6,000 years ago and why?
Also, is there any credible, scientific evidence for a young earth?

Personal belief is that I believe God created the universe(s) long before He created actually created "life... with blood in it".

Science tells us that the earth is 13.8 billion years old.

I do not believe them simply because there has been so much written on the possible errors in the dating mechanisms which tells me that science used "educated" guesswork in addition to what they think they know.

IMO God Created Adam... and Eve.... for a non-specified reason in the four corners of the Holy Bible.

We absolutely know this came about approximately 6,000 years ago.

The universe(s) could be 13.8 million years old.... possibly older.

Hypothetical. Have you ever looked to the starts at night or gone to a planetarium to watch a sky show?
What about looking at any and all pictures sent back from outer space and wondered what possibly could be beyond what the pictures captured?

If we enjoy what we have been allowed to see, do you not believe that all of heaven would not also enjoy?
I DO.

IT IS possible original intent came about simply for the grandeur of enjoyment for those in heaven.

I am not going into the potential why of why I feel Adam came into existence... at least not in this thread.

I will say that if you believe the scientists the first fossils of the first human kind of people date back to .. according to Smithsonian Magazine

550,000 to 750,000 Years Ago: The Beginning of the Homo sapiens Lineage A facial reconstruction of Homo heidelbergensis, a popular candidate as a common ancestor for modern humans, Neanderthals...

That is not even 1 billion years ago.

And we know that Adam came around a mere 6,000 years ago.

We also know that the "cavemen" and dinosaurs were fact but not talked of in the four corners of the bible.

We also do not know... definitively if this ball of mud we walk on came into being at the same time as the rest of all space.... or a lot later. SCIENCE likes to lump us in with either big band or expansion or a combo of this.

Comically thinking... I think it could be as easily thought of as God sitting up in heave shooting marbles with some of the angels and anytime one of the marbles jumped out of the ring, it ended up into deep space as a planet.
Yes, I am joking but ???????

I feel it is more likely that our own solar system came into being for a specific reason... and that is to support life.

What if the ancient fossils found on earth were originally made with the idea of being..... {PLEASE DONT CALL ME A RADICAL) something like entertainment for those in heaven. I dont think they had cable TV? NO, not possible! you say.... Prove it! I say.

We know by Gen 1- Nasb95

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”

Question: What do you suppose the Holy Spirit was looking for as He was moving over the surface of the waters?

God turned on a light ... Why? To see easier for the best location? This was done on day one. THEN God created the sun on "a forth day"

I submit, but cannot prove that the Spirit was looking for a good location for further creation among the many universe(s) and expanse of space.

And the timing for this was far different then the original creation of all things in space.

But that is just me musing... and I best stop before I write a book on a subject near and dear to my heart.

I will leave with the following to keep in mind.

When, in Gen 1: 26 said.... Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

In Gen 1: 29 Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food”; and it was so.

EVERYTHING that required food was to be vegetarian.

The first couple were not told to stay away from the tree of life.

The first couple were not placed in an idyllic garden.

And I clearly see that the first couple came into existence at an earlier point then Adam and Eve who started our 6,000 year timeline.

OK... I am done... I promise....

 

[seekingHiswisdom]

Evidence as opposed to proof, Uranium has a half life of 3000 to six thousand years; if the world was billions of years old there should not be any uranium left.

Time is not a thing, time is a measurement, motion quantized. The human brain and the universe as we know it is locked into a time frame, but this could be creation also; the universe may appear to be older, but it could have been created to appear that way.

Time in a black hole could be very different to time in a hot star, especially in terms of what motion is being quantized, and by whom.

Why do you feel that Uranium had to have been from the beginning?

Uranium was discovered in 1789 by the German chemist Martin Heinrich Klaproth. And there were no major uses of uranium until 1934 when it was discovered that uranium could emit beta rays when inundated with neutrons.

Uranium is a radioactive chemical element of the actinoid series of the periodic table, atomic number 92, making it an important nuclear fuel.

Not until the advancement of electricity was it even needed.

So... can you be sure that Uranium came into existence from the very beginning? Or is it possible that if the earth
is older then Adam... it came into being after Adam.... and perhaps not until there was soon to be a need?

I agree with what you say about the black hole etc... but WHY...for WHAT purpose would be the reason to make the earth appear older then it is?

 

[tonychanyt]

Do you believe God created the Universe billions of years ago or approx. 6,000 years ago and why?

Both. See How old is the earth?

Also, is there any credible, scientific evidence for a young earth?

No, not in the sense of mathematical science.

 

[sparow]

Why do you feel that Uranium had to have been from the beginning?

Uranium was discovered in 1789 by the German chemist Martin Heinrich Klaproth. And there were no major uses of uranium until 1934 when it was discovered that uranium could emit beta rays when inundated with neutrons.

Uranium is a radioactive chemical element of the actinoid series of the periodic table, atomic number 92, making it an important nuclear fuel.

Not until the advancement of electricity was it even needed.

So... can you be sure that Uranium came into existence from the very beginning? Or is it possible that if the earth
is older then Adam... it came into being after Adam.... and perhaps not until there was soon to be a need?

I agree with what you say about the black hole etc... but WHY...for WHAT purpose would be the reason to make the earth appear older then it is?

When dealing with the unknown a man conjures up ideas. Man is designed to perceive, but between limits, when the limits are exceeded, things become irrational; The human mind when encountering the irrational will subconsciously replace the irrational with imagined rationality; I learned that from a book on UFOs. We encounter paradoxes daily, but they go unnoticed.

It seems futile to question God, or the abstractions he has given us, but what we are given is there to be used. God is creating or re-creating the kingdom of God on earth. God said, let there be a firmament dividing the waters, but God is not a magician, he issued instructions to workers. It is unlikely the earth is created at that time but reformed or change in shape, possibly by asteroid attack.

It could be that God, the ancient of days, does not know how old the universe is, and is not concerned about it.

What we observe is entropy, but for the universe to be endless in time, there has to be an anti-thesis to entropy, at times.

Uranium is a decaying element that breaks down into lesser elements like Gold and silver or can be suspended in compounds.

It would not surprise me if plants and bacteria could create elements, out of some to another.

 

[seekingHiswisdom]

When dealing with the unknown a man conjures up ideas. Man is designed to perceive, but between limits, when the limits are exceeded, things become irrational; The human mind when encountering the irrational will subconsciously replace the irrational with imagined rationality; I learned that from a book on UFOs. We encounter paradoxes daily, but they go unnoticed.

It seems futile to question God, or the abstractions he has given us, but what we are given is there to be used. God is creating or re-creating the kingdom of God on earth. God said, let there be a firmament dividing the waters, but God is not a magician, he issued instructions to workers. It is unlikely the earth is created at that time but reformed or change in shape, possibly by asteroid attack.

It could be that God, the ancient of days, does not know how old the universe is, and is not concerned about it.

What we observe is entropy, but for the universe to be endless in time, there has to be an anti-thesis to entropy, at times.

Uranium is a decaying element that breaks down into lesser elements like Gold and silver or can be suspended in compounds.

It would not surprise me if plants and bacteria could create elements, out of some to another.

You obviously put a lot of thought into the age of the universe to draw the conclusions you have?

But I cannot avoid what seems to me to be a grave misunderstanding on your part.

If you are a bible believing person then you should know that Psalm 33: tells you exactly what God did for creation.

6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

7 He gathers the waters of the sea together [a]as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

9 For He spoke, and it was done;

He did not need to be a magician. Ther WORD... 3rd person of the Godhead... spoke it into being....

Workers were not needed... nor was there a heavenly union with Wisdom as their head.

Whetever and whenever anything came into being was all part of the "plan" for our creation and came about in due time as needed....

Does God know how old things are? Who knows... for it surely does not matter. But He certainly knows of the past 6,000 years... for without those last 6,000 we would have no hope.

 

[sparow]

You obviously put a lot of thought into the age of the universe to draw the conclusions you have?

But I cannot avoid what seems to me to be a grave misunderstanding on your part.

If you are a bible believing person then you should know that Psalm 33: tells you exactly what God did for creation.

6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

7 He gathers the waters of the sea together [a]as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

9 For He spoke, and it was done;

He did not need to be a magician. Ther WORD... 3rd person of the Godhead... spoke it into being....

Workers were not needed... nor was there a heavenly union with Wisdom as their head.

Whetever and whenever anything came into being was all part of the "plan" for our creation and came about in due time as needed....

Does God know how old things are? Who knows... for it surely does not matter. But He certainly knows of the past 6,000 years... for without those last 6,000 we would have no hope.

The Bible is abstract, not fine detail; men make up the fine detail.

 

[Diamond7]

Do you believe God created the Universe billions of years ago or approx. 6,000 years ago and why?
Also, is there any credible, scientific evidence for a young earth?

Are you talking about Genesis chapter two that begins with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. Or are we talking about Genesis chapter one where people do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew word for "day" Yom.

 

[FaithT]

Are you talking about Genesis chapter two that begins with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. Or are we talking about Genesis chapter one where people do not understand the meaning of the Hebrew word for "day" Yom.

The geneologies

 

[Diamond7]

The geneologies

Yes I have studied the generations. It is very easy to do the math from Adam to Abraham. We can see that Noah's father could have known Adam because they were both alive at the same time for a few years at the end of Adams life.

 

[Diamond7]

There is no credible scientific evidence for a young earth.

Science accepts that 6,000 years ago Adam and Eve were real people that lived in the Garden of Eden. Bishop Usshers book written 500 years ago deals with the last 6,000 years of history. The issue has to do with Genesis Chapter one and the meaning of the Hebrew word for day.

 

[sparow]

Science accepts that 6,000 years ago Adam and Eve were real people that lived in the Garden of Eden. Bishop Usshers book written 500 years ago deals with the last 6,000 years of history. The issue has to do with Genesis Chapter one and the meaning of the Hebrew word for day.

It is interesting; in verse one God creates the heavens and the earth. In verse 3-5 He creates a day. I believe Adam was a real person, without reading the book you mention, yet it is also symbolic; Adam becomes the bow of a tree, the fruit of which is good and evil, Able and Cain.

 

[Diamond7]

Adam becomes the bow of a tree, the fruit of which is good and evil, Able and Cain.

Adam represents civilization. Something we know can not exist without laws, rules and regulations. Of course that did not happen until Moses came along. He began city planning with sanitation and all of that

It is interesting with twins they talk about the good twin and the bad twin. In the womb one tends to get more food than the other. So the bigger twin is considered the "bad" one. We have Twinsburg here and they have an annual twin event where they can get together and compare notes.

 

[Diamond7]

What in not covered anywhere within the four corners of the Holy Book is the explanation of what a day truly is or how long... or if they are 24 hours... it could be possible day one when light was created... could have been spaced far apart from day two... etc.

This is covered by what they call the Oral Tradition. What people do not realize is how much of our Bible contains the oral tradition. There is no punition. No sentences, no paragraphs, no chapters. All of that was a part of the oral tradition.

In Hebrew every letter has a meaning. For example the A is upside down. It represents the horns on the lead animal in a hurd of ox. If we understood the meaning of the word beginning that is all we would need. The entire Bible tells us what that first word means. The ox lead the way to civilization by pulling the plow that produced the food to feed the people. You can only have people if you can feed them.

 

[sparow]

Adam represents civilization. Something we know can not exist without laws, rules and regulations. Of course that did not happen until Moses came along. He began city planning with sanitation and all of that

It is interesting with twins they talk about the good twin and the bad twin. In the womb one tends to get more food than the other. So the bigger twin is considered the "bad" one. We have Twinsburg here and they have an annual twin event where they can get together and compare notes.

The account of what happened before Moses, is given by Moses, and is very abstract or concise. The Law has always existed, or else Cain could not be accused of murder or sin, or mankind be judged before the flood, and Noah would not know what a clean and unclean animal was. I am inclined to think the law as we know it begins Abraham and the promised type for the Kingdom of God.

 

[Diamond7]

The Law has always existed,

The law came through Moses John 1:17. There is an oral tradition that some say goes back to Abraham and some say the Oral Tradition goes back to Adam.

 

[Ragdoll]

I believe the universe was created by God during creation week. However, nobody--creationist or evolutionist--can make any scientific claim to know the age of the universe. Everything from a scientific prospect is theory and conjecture on both sides. Nobody has ever traveled the universe and nobody has any means to measure time in the universe with any degree of certainty. Everything about the age of the universe is mere philosophy -- Deep Space Fantasia.

 

[I's2C]

-​

First off there is no mention of God creating a universe, in The Bible when it speaks of God's creation it is heaven and earth.

Who made heaven and earth,
The sea, and all that is in them;
Who keeps truth forever,​

The idea that God created a universe* is a science fabricated idea.

*When i use the word universe, it is as science uses it, where the sun, moon and stars and even planets (another fabricated idea from science). Are out in thousands, to millions, to billions of miles and light years away out in a place they call outer space. That is not a Biblical description of God's creation.

HUH?