Age Of The Universe

[eleos1954]

I believe God. I believe that the correct translation of "was" in Genesis 1:2 is "became". The same word was used of Lot's wife. She did not start out a pillar of salt.

well according to the bible God spoke things into existence .... as christians we either believe that or not.

Genesis 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

 

[trophy33]

well according to the bible God spoke things into existence .... as christians we either believe that or not.

Genesis 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

There is a problem with the statement "according to the Bible...".

Bible is a library of many books that contain many genres - allegories, poetry, drama, parables, symbolism, zoomorphism, mythological and philosophical concepts (without accepting a mythological or philosophical system as a whole)...

We must navigate through it properly, which is not an easy task, partly because those concepts are totally foreign to us, modern society. We are used to factual books, text books in schools, encyclopedias, the language of science... and mistakenly expect the Bible to be the same. And that produces needless conflicts and arguments.

 

[Mark Quayle]

well according to the bible God spoke things into existence .... as christians we either believe that or not.

Genesis 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

I agree with this. However, how does it necessarily mean he spoke it all into existence in the space of time equivalent to 6 of our current days?

But yes, as First Cause, (and I will accept no other God), he indeed spoke it all into existence.

 

[eleos1954]

I agree with this. However, how does it necessarily mean he spoke it all into existence in the space of time equivalent to 6 of our current days?

But yes, as First Cause, (and I will accept no other God), he indeed spoke it all into existence.

well if you look at the word yom ....

always means an ordinary day everywhere else in Scripture .... so not to apply it to creation week is not logical

The seventh day Sabbath .... also clarifies that .... and the fact that Jesus kept that particular day Himself ... now some will say He did so because He was a Jew .... in the 10 .... He says to remember it .... a day He set aside from other days.

Here it is obvious He is referring back to creation week

Exodus 20:11

11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

NOTE: In depth discussion about the 7th day Sabbath has a special forum for discussion about that.

Also the use of evening and the morning .... being a day

I don't see any confusion about what a day is .... He determined that evening and morning equals one day .... the days are not tied to a clock .... rather an event ..... the setting and rising of the sun. God doesn't go by man's methods of time keeping (clocks)

 

[Miles]

God is the Alpha and the Omega. The beginning and the end. If he is infinite and spoke the universe into existence, I wouldn't be surprised if it's even orders of magnitude older than current scientific estimates. We should get a better idea of the specifics as more evidence is gathered. Whether that's 6,000 contemporary Earth years or Trillions, God spoke it into existence, observed that it was good, and rested.

The point of the Creation story is to establish who God is. The Creator. To make it clear that we're not dealing with a Zeus or an Athena, mythical gods who have children with other mythical gods, but rather the first cause. Whether each "day" corresponds to precisely 24 Earth hours or epochs lasting billions of Earth years strikes me as tangental. Fun to think about, but not fundamentally changing the meaning.

While I do think it's important to observe the Sabbath, I would be surprised if that meant God rested for precisely 24 Earth hours after a 6 day human work week. He's the Alpha and the Omega after all. What is time to an infinite Creator?

 

[Mark Quayle]

well if you look at the word yom ....

always means an ordinary day everywhere else in Scripture .... so not to apply it to creation week is not logical

The seventh day Sabbath .... also clarifies that .... and the fact that Jesus kept that particular day Himself ... now some will say He did so because He was a Jew .... in the 10 .... He says to remember it .... a day He set aside from other days.

Here it is obvious He is referring back to creation week

Exodus 20:11

11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

NOTE: In depth discussion about the 7th day Sabbath has a special forum for discussion about that.

Also the use of evening and the morning .... being a day

I don't see any confusion about what a day is .... He determined that evening and morning equals one day .... the days are not tied to a clock .... rather an event ..... the setting and rising of the sun. God doesn't go by man's methods of time keeping (clocks)

I'm not at all confused about it. And I too agree, that it is talking about the space of an ordinary day. However, I don't know that for sure, and I'm pretty sure that the light and darkness of the first day are not about sunrise and sunset.

 

[FaithT]

well if you look at the word yom ....

always means an ordinary day everywhere else in Scripture .... so not to apply it to creation week is not logical

The seventh day Sabbath .... also clarifies that .... and the fact that Jesus kept that particular day Himself ... now some will say He did so because He was a Jew .... in the 10 .... He says to remember it .... a day He set aside from other days.

Here it is obvious He is referring back to creation week

Exodus 20:11

11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth and the sea and all that is in them, but on the seventh day He rested. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

NOTE: In depth discussion about the 7th day Sabbath has a special forum for discussion about that.

Also the use of evening and the morning .... being a day

I don't see any confusion about what a day is .... He determined that evening and morning equals one day .... the days are not tied to a clock .... rather an event ..... the setting and rising of the sun. God doesn't go by man's methods of time keeping (clocks)

What about places where the sun doesn’t set or stays dark for weeks?

 

[jhwatts]

Psalms 104 is another perspective of Genesis 1.

Notice how it is a re-creation. For example, the mountain had been covered with water, the spirit re-newest the face of the deep. Below is a side by side of the two.

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Psalms 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Psalms 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

Genesis 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
Psalms 104 : 7-9) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away. 8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them. 9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Genesis 1 : 11-12) 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Psalms 104:14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.

 

[eleos1954]

I'm not at all confused about it. And I too agree, that it is talking about the space of an ordinary day. However, I don't know that for sure, and I'm pretty sure that the light and darkness of the first day are not about sunrise and sunset.

Genesis 1:5

King James Bible
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

evening/morning - sunset/sunrise .... light from the sun disappears at sunset and then reappears at sunrise.

Pretty clear.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Genesis 1:5

King James Bible
And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

evening/morning - sunset/sunrise .... light from the sun disappears at sunset and then reappears at sunrise.

Pretty clear.

Sun and moon had not been put into play yet. "Let there be light" (on the first day), is not the same thing as, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

Just sayin'...

 

[eleos1954]

Sun and moon had not been put into play yet. "Let there be light" (on the first day), is not the same thing as, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day."

Just sayin'...

"Let there be light" (on the first day)

A full day is a full day (evening & morning) ... according to how it is written.

God does not need the sun, moon, and stars to provide light. God is light. 1 John 1:5

Supported by ....

Revelation 22:5

God Himself was the light for the first three days of Creation, just as He will be in the new heavens and new earth, “There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.

 

[Mark Quayle]

A full day is a full day (evening & morning) ... according to how it is written.

God does not need the sun, moon, and stars to provide light. God is light. 1 John 1:5

Supported by ....

Revelation 22:5

God Himself was the light for the first three days of Creation, just as He will be in the new heavens and new earth, “There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.

Aaargh. Now I have to go find where you asserted (words to the effect that) the sun was the cause of light and measure of a day from the beginning of creation. No, nevermind. Isn't worth it.

 

[eleos1954]

Aaargh. Now I have to go find where you asserted (words to the effect that) the sun was the cause of light and measure of a day from the beginning of creation. No, nevermind. Isn't worth it.

well not really .... like I said God provides His own light .... the sun and moon were created for specific purposes .... for earthlings.

Genesis 1:14

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night (evening & morning), and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

It's normal for us to initially think light can not exist without the sun .... but that isn't so with God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

well not really .... like I said God provides His own light .... the sun and moon were created for specific purposes .... for earthlings.

Genesis 1:14

Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night (evening & morning), and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years;

It's normal for us to initially think light can not exist without the sun .... but that isn't so with God.

I understand and agree. It's just that you said differently to begin with, or so I thought. But, nevermind...

 

[Davy]

Jeremiah 4:23-28 is an explanation by God of what happened at Genesis 1:2.

Jer 4:23-28
23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger.
27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
KJV

That is then related to what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 8:18-25 about God placing today's creation in bondage to corruption, and in vanity. Most think the creation for this present world is a perfect creation; it is not, and cannot be compared with His original perfect creation, nor the return of His perfect creation in the glory of the world to come.

Therefore, God's original perfect creation was at Genesis 1:1, and that was when He created Satan perfect in his ways (per parable of Ezekiel 28). Then sometime between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 Satan rebelled in coveting God's Throne, and God ended that old world. Genesis 1:2 with the earth covered with those waters represents God's destruction of that old world. From Genesis 1:2 forward, is God's setting up this present world earth age that is ordained to be destroyed.

 

[Aussie Pete]

well according to the bible God spoke things into existence .... as christians we either believe that or not.

Genesis 1:1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

I agree completely. However, it is a matter of timing. I believe that what we read in Genesis (from verse 2 onward) is a restoration of a ruined planet, not a beginning from scratch

 

[Davy]

I agree completely. However, it is a matter of timing. I believe that what we read in Genesis (from verse 2 onward) is a restoration of a ruined planet, not a beginning from scratch

I had an engineer Christian friend who was pretty heavily into science, and he told me he struggled to reconcile his Christian Faith of the popular creation story and the scientific evidence for an old earth.

I gave him a Bible study I did revealing that God's Word actually does support the idea of an ancient earth, so the fossil evidence is right in line with what God's Word actually teaches. He held my study in retrospect, not really understanding it, but stayed neutral about it.

Then about 2 years later, as I was heading out to the pipe shop, he came around the corner to me excited. His Protestant Church he attends has a teaching pastor in addition to other ministers. This pastor doesn't preach, nor do visits, but only teaches Bible and is a scholar in the Hebrew. That pastor taught the congregation one Sunday what I had previously shown my friend.

So I asked him, how did others there appear when the pastor was teaching it from the Hebrew? My friend said most looked puzzled. He then said he nudged his wife and asked if she understood what the pastor was talking about, and she said she didn't have a clue. So my friend was very excited, because he discovered that God's Word does actually cover the ancient history of this earth, matching the actual fossil evidence. So I guess his telling me that was his thanks. Yet my view is all I did was to 'plant a seed', God did the watering and growing.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I had an engineer Christian friend who was pretty heavily into science, and he told me he struggled to reconcile his Christian Faith of the popular creation story and the scientific evidence for an old earth.

I gave him a Bible study I did revealing that God's Word actually does support the idea of an ancient earth, so the fossil evidence is right in line with what God's Word actually teaches. He held my study in retrospect, not really understanding it, but stayed neutral about it.

Then about 2 years later, as I was heading out to the pipe shop, he came around the corner to me excited. His Protestant Church he attends has a teaching pastor in addition to other ministers. This pastor doesn't preach, nor do visits, but only teaches Bible and is a scholar in the Hebrew. That pastor taught the congregation one Sunday what I had previously shown my friend.

So I asked him, how did others there appear when the pastor was teaching it from the Hebrew? My friend said most looked puzzled. He then said he nudged his wife and asked if she understood what the pastor was talking about, and she said she didn't have a clue. So my friend was very excited, because he discovered that God's Word does actually cover the ancient history of this earth, matching the actual fossil evidence. So I guess his telling me that was his thanks. Yet my view is all I did was to 'plant a seed', God did the watering and growing.

That's great! I've never had a problem reconciling Genesis with science. My view is that where science and the Bible disagree, science has it wrong. I came across the "gap" theory when I read "The Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee. It answered a lot of questions that I had not asked, but it seems to help those who have to understand before they will accept.

Another interesting thought is that dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. The creatures described by God to Job, Behemoth and Leviathan, could easily be dinosaurs. Is that so? I don't know for sure. We'll find out soon enough.

Another point of view can be found here: What is Job’s 'Behemoth'?

 

[Davy]

That's great! I've never had a problem reconciling Genesis with science. My view is that where science and the Bible disagree, science has it wrong. I came across the "gap" theory when I read "The Mystery of Creation" by Watchman Nee. It answered a lot of questions that I had not asked, but it seems to help those who have to understand before they will accept.

Another interesting thought is that dinosaurs are mentioned in the Bible. The creatures described by God to Job, Behemoth and Leviathan, could easily be dinosaurs. Is that so? I don't know for sure. We'll find out soon enough.

Another point of view can be found here: What is Job’s 'Behemoth'?

Yeah, the pop interpretation about the behemoth in Job is a hippopotamus. But a hippo doesn't have a tail that moves like a cedar tree. The idea of it appearing to drink up a river isn't very believable about a hippo either. Those are descriptions of a much greater animal than a hippo.

The Leviathan, that is often seen as an crocodile.

I met a pastor once at a hospital and asked him what he thought about the 'gap' idea. He drew real close to me at the table and said, "no man showed that to me, God showed it to me". He said that twice. So I asked him if he taught it to his congregation. He said no, because only a very small number would understand. So I asked him about that small number, like shouldn't they be shown? He was silent. I hope he went back and showed his congregation, but I was aware that most preachers in mainstream Christian organizations can get fired for teaching something that sounds controversial.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Yeah, the pop interpretation about the behemoth in Job is a hippopotamus. But a hippo doesn't have a tail that moves like a cedar tree. The idea of it appearing to drink up a river isn't very believable about a hippo either. Those are descriptions of a much greater animal than a hippo.

The Leviathan, that is often seen as an crocodile.

I met a pastor once at a hospital and asked him what he thought about the 'gap' idea. He drew real close to me at the table and said, "no man showed that to me, God showed it to me". He said that twice. So I asked him if he taught it to his congregation. He said no, because only a very small number would understand. So I asked him about that small number, like shouldn't they be shown? He was silent. I hope he went back and showed his congregation, but I was aware that most preachers in mainstream Christian organizations can get fired for teaching something that sounds controversial.

I understand his concern. I would hope that I would have the courage to teach the truth whatever the cost.