Would you be more likely to join…

Adventist Heretic · May 11, 2024

Clare73 said:
Review post #92.

I have answered that objection, it is local. It is because of temple prostitution. They will be misrepresenting God. So he says ladies for the Gospel's sake sit down and be quiet. you prove otherwise.

MarkRohfrietsch · May 12, 2024

Staying on topic regarding female ordination and Catholicism, I think we need to stay on track.

It is understandable that Seventh Day Adventists feel obliged to advocate for female clergy and leadership in the Church. When St. Paul's writings are accepted at face value it negates the teaching of Ellen G. White; which calls into question the entirety of SDA Theology.

Let's keep it relevant to the original post please.

Were I to be in a position where the Confessional Lutheran Church ceased to exist, I would feel comfortable enough in the Catholic and Orthodox Church; of these two, the Catholic Church would be my first choice because of the familiar liturgies. Were either of these Churches to allow female ordinations, they would be stricken from my list.

Let's keep in mind that the Anglicans, Liberal Luterans, some Old Catholic Churches, some so called "independent" orthodox have already embraced female ordination; the most visible being Anglicans and Liberal Lutherans.

People are not exactly flocking to either of those Churches at the rates at which their attendance is declining. I don't think they would flock to the CC either, were this to become the case.

I would expect that traditional Catholics we leave in droves, and the few members that they might gain would be minimal at best.

Paidiske · May 12, 2024

In my observation, the ordination of women, on its own, is not enough to make people come to a church, although the refusal to ordain women can be enough to keep them away. Quite a few folks drift into my church after leaving churches that don't ordain women (which is most of them, locally). But they won't stay unless they encounter solid teaching, sound worship, and healthy community.

Adventist Heretic · May 12, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Staying on topic regarding female ordination and Catholicism, I think we need to stay on track.

It is understandable that Seventh Day Adventists feel obliged to advocate for female clergy and leadership in the Church. When St. Paul's writings are accepted at face value it negates the teaching of Ellen G. White;

there are so many leaps of logic and assumptions made in your statement
1. My acceptance of Women as pastors is not dependent on my view of Ellen G White. I do not accept Her as a prophet. So I do not defend her, her prophetic ministry is dependant on the accuracy of her prophecies, not her gender. Being a woman does not negate the Holy Spirit gifting women for ministry. As Acts 21:8,9 8Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. So that objection is not valid.

MarkRohfrietsch said:
which calls into question the entirety of SDA Theology.

SDA theology stands and falls on its accuracy in its interpretation of Scripture. EGW did not write any of the doctrines of the SDA church. Her role is in endorsing the doctrines. Because of her claim to prophetic authority, she locks into place the doctrines. if there is an error in the doctrines then you cannot change them without EGW losing her claim to prophetic authority. That is the big problem. That is why I am a Seventh-day Evangelical Adventist. I use the same tools as everyone else. I think their system is the best for interpretation and practice. The teaching needs some adjustment.

MarkRohfrietsch said:
Let's keep it relevant to the original post please.

Were I to be in a position where the Confessional Lutheran Church ceased to exist, I would feel comfortable enough in the Catholic and Orthodox Church; of these two, the Catholic Church would be my first choice because of the familiar liturgies. Were either of these Churches to allow female ordinations, they would be stricken from my list.

Let's keep in mind that the Anglicans, Liberal Luterans, some Old Catholic Churches, some so called "independent" orthodox have already embraced female ordination; the most visible being Anglicans and Liberal Lutherans.

People are not exactly flocking to either of those Churches at the rates at which their attendance is declining. I don't think they would flock to the CC either, were this to become the case.

There are different reasons for people Denying or accepting women's ordination. The problem with the churches listed above is that .....
1. They largely reject the authority of scripture, they are humanist and evolutionist, and they deny the creator, the created order, the Garden of Eden, the Fall, and the Curse. they base everything on equality and do not look at sin and circumstance.

2. A biblical view for women as pastors is based on being born again, the gift of the Holy Spirit, being a new creation, and the Law written on the Heart. Paul's statements on women being silent and not having authority are seen as local and circumstantial. We don't care if it is a man or a women as long as God speaks and get His way. Gender is irrelevant. Traditionalists either deny, ignore, or denigrate this view because it does not fit with their interpretation

3. The Traditional view is that Paul's statements are universal and binding in all circumstances.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
It is understandable that Seventh Day Adventists feel obliged to advocate for female clergy and leadership in the Church. When St. Paul's writings are accepted at face value it negates the teaching of Ellen G. White; which calls into question the entirety of SDA Theology.

In their defense, while some churches have gone on their own and done so, the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the global level has not ordained female clergy.

1 Corinthians 11:5 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved (NKJV)

Prophesying is not the same as ordination. And even in a chapter dealing extensively with a sign of authority, the text references women prophesying.

Adventist Heretic · May 12, 2024

tall73 said:
In their defense, while some churches have gone on their own and done so, the Seventh-day Adventist Church on the global level has not ordained female clergy.

1 Corinthians 11:5 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved (NKJV)

Prophesying is not the same as ordination. And even in a chapter dealing extensively with a sign of authority, the text references women prophesying.

Ellen white was not ordained.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
Ellen white was not ordained.

I stated they do not ordain female clergy.

And yes, Ellen White was not ordained. But the actual history of her ministerial credentials is a bit more complicated.

Ellen G. White® Estate: Records Pertaining to Ellen G. White's Ministerial/Ordination Credentials

whiteestate.org

Summary

From 1871 until her death in 1915, Ellen White was issued ministerial credentials. From 1871 to 1887 she was credentialed by the Michigan Conference, and from 1884 until her death, she was credentialed as a General Conference Minister. On one of the credentials (1885), the word "ordained" is struck through. (In the 1888 Yearbook she was also listed among the California Ministers.) Throughout the years, her name was listed along with ordained ministers rather than licentiates, although her biographical information sheet and the testimony of her family indicates that she did not receive ordination at the hands of church officials.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Love365 said:
Would you be more likely to join the Catholic Church,
if they had women priests, bishops, and cardinals?

No

Adventist Heretic · May 12, 2024

Love365 said:
Would you be more likely to join the Catholic Church,
if they had women priests, bishops, and cardinals?

that depends on their reason for doing it. as a social trend or Fad, NO. As an acknowledgment of the spiritual gifting, maybe, but there are other reasons for not joining.

MarkRohfrietsch · May 12, 2024

A bit of shock and awe to get the thread back on track.

Fun to watch the SDA damage control.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

MarkRohfrietsch said:
A bit of shock and awe to get the thread back on track.

Fun to watch the SDA damage control.

The damage control where a former Adventist (who has been critical of SDA theology), and a current Adventist (who does not accept Ellen White, and has been critical of SOME aspects of Adventist theology) pointed out your facts were inaccurate all around in regards to the Adventist church?

Sure.

But the larger point was that the discussion was not off topic. The issue comes back to whether women's ordination is Scriptural, or in the case of the Catholic church, in line with tradition, including Scripture.

So a discussion between Adventist Heretic, who was not, in fact, representing the dominant SDA position, but was instead advocating for ordaining women, and Clare73, who was representing a more traditional approach, was not an SDA discussion at all. It was a discussion of biblical support.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Clare73 said:
"In all the congregations of the saints (from Ephesus to Rome), women should remain silent in the churches." (1 Co 14:33)

Adventist Heretic said:
This is talking about speaking in tounges.

I am guessing she is taking the second clause of vs. 33 to apply to vs. 34. But it would be good if she clarified.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35

33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (NKJV)

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
there are so many leaps of logic and assumptions made in your statement
1. My acceptance of Women as pastors is not dependent on my view of Ellen G White. I do not accept Her as a prophet. So I do not defend her, her prophetic ministry is dependant on the accuracy of her prophecies, not her gender. Being a woman does not negate the Holy Spirit gifting women for ministry. As Acts 21:8,9 8Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. So that objection is not valid.

SDA theology stands and falls on its accuracy in its interpretation of Scripture. EGW did not write any of the doctrines of the SDA church. Her role is in endorsing the doctrines. Because of her claim to prophetic authority, she locks into place the doctrines. if there is an error in the doctrines then you cannot change them without EGW losing her claim to prophetic authority. That is the big problem. That is why I am a Seventh-day Evangelical Adventist. I use the same tools as everyone else. I think their system is the best for interpretation and practice. The teaching needs some adjustment.

There are different reasons for people Denying or accepting women's ordination. The problem with the churches listed above is that .....
1. They largely reject the authority of scripture, they are humanist and evolutionist, and they deny the creator, the created order, the Garden of Eden, the Fall, and the Curse. they base everything on equality and do not look at sin and circumstance.

2. A biblical view for women as pastors is based on being born again, the gift of the Holy Spirit, being a new creation, and the Law written on the Heart. Paul's statements on women being silent and not having authority are seen as local and circumstantial. We don't care if it is a man or a women as long as God speaks and get His way. Gender is irrelevant. Traditionalists either deny, ignore, or denigrate this view because it does not fit with their interpretation.

3. The Traditional view is that Paul's statements are universal and binding in all circumstances.

I think it is a bit more nuanced.

The traditional view points to arguments that go beyond just cultural specific arguments, such as the argument of creation order, and who was deceived.

Both of those are long before Ephesus, and takes it out of merely local context. One is pre-fall, and one related to the fall.

Acts clearly shows that women were involved in prophesy, exercising gifts, etc. The question is were they able to fill specific roles.

There is also the question of the relation of the husband and wife in the home, to roles in the church, if any.

Adventist Heretic · May 12, 2024

tall73 said:
I am guessing she is taking the second clause of vs. 33 to apply to vs. 34. But it would be good if she clarified.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (NKJV)

this issue in order.

Adventist Heretic · May 12, 2024

tall73 said:
I think it is a bit more nuanced.

The traditional view points to arguments that go beyond just cultural appeal, such as the argument of creation order, and who was deceived.

Both of those are long before Ephesus, and takes it out of merely local context. One is pre-fall, and one related to the fall.

Acts clearly shows that women were involved in prophesy, exercising gifts, etc. The question is were they able to fill specific roles.

There is also the question of the relation of the husband and wife in the home, to roles in the church, if any.

we have had many discussions on this. It is not as cut and dry as traditionalists want to make it. It takes very bad hermeneutics to arrive at that view. One has to ignore evidence that contradicts that to make it universal, one has to ignore the work of Christ in removing the curse and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to all people, unless you want to say the Holy Spirit is not given to women? How do we ignore that?

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
this issue in order.

The phrase could apply to either what comes before, or after, and it largely comes down to interpretation on that point.

However, at the very least, you have him setting down something similar in Corinth to what he said regarding Ephesus in the letter to Timothy.

You could still say it is two unique local situations, both going one direction. But the combination of this happening in two places, and in connection with arguments that are referring to events and principles outside of either of these contexts, brings that into question.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Adventist Heretic said:
one has to ignore the work of Christ in removing the curse and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit to all people, unless you want to say the Holy Spirit is not given to women? How do we ignore that?

a. the creation order came before the curse.

b. No one said the Holy Spirit was not given to women. I just quoted from I Corinthians showing women prophesied, and indicated Acts shows them using gifts.

The questions seem to center around authoritative roles in the church, and, arguably, the connected issue of roles in the family.

Clare73 · May 12, 2024

tall73 said:
I am guessing she is taking the second clause of vs. 33 to apply to vs. 34. But it would be good if she clarified.

1 Corinthians 14:33-35
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church. (NKJV)

V. 34 is pretty plain.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Clare73 said:
V. 34 is pretty plain.

But you referenced vs. 33.

Do you contend that the second clause in 33 is connected to v. 34?

It makes a difference if you are contending universal, vs. local.

But as I mentioned, either way it is two locations with similar advice.

tall73 · May 12, 2024

Let's start with what I think would be common ground. I assume all in the conversation agree with:

1 Peter 3:7
7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. (NKJV)

Galatians 3:26-29 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. (NKJV)

Women in Christ are heirs of salvation, just as men, heirs according to the promise.

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