women as priests

HTacianas

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So that one verse, taken out of context, overrides the fact that Paul had female co-workers, that Priscilla taught Apollos, that Deborah had been judge over all Israel, that both the OT and NT had female prophets?

As I've said, many a time, my Minister does not have authority over me - and that was true even when we had a male Minister. Maybe things are different in other countries/traditions, but it is not the Minister's job to tell us what to think/do, where to live, what job to have, who to marry, how much money to give and so on. They can't even insist that we go to church. Ministers can, and have, given me references for jobs/voluntary work - that doesn't mean I am beholden to them or that I even need to agree with them.
So in what sense does a Minister even "have authority" over someone - far less usurp, or snatch it by force as I'm told the Greek suggests?

That verse is not taken out of context to mean anything other than what the plain language states. And there is a hierarchy in the Church. There always has been.

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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We most certainly do have "remnants from that time". The Apostolic Churches still exist. And there are unbroken chains of commentaries reaching from modern times back to the men who knew the Apostles.

Please don't misrepresent what I said. If you're going to attempt to refute me, then take into account what I actually articulated, not a strawman version of it.

Thank you! (...the key word you missed was "many," and by George, yes I fully already know that we have SOME commentaries from the 1st or 2nd century (which is all that really matters in relevance to what I said previously).
 
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Rely_942

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Well, I'm a woman who is a priest. So there's that.

I don't think we can make an argument for the ordination of women on social need or the like. But ultimately, it's up to God whom God chooses to call into the ministry. I believe God calls women, and the church should discern and obey that call, just as it should when God calls men.

I also see New Testament precedent, in Junia the apostle, in Phoebe the deacon, in women who hosted and presided over worship in their homes, and so on.
I was at a parish this Sunday that had female assistants administering the sacrament. I was blessed by one of them. They are assets to the church, and anyone who says they can't serve in any capacity really need to the think about what Mary said at the annunciation,

"I am the Lord's servant, may it be unto me as you have said." (!?)

Appreciate you.
 
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Michie

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I was at a parish this Sunday that had female assistants administering the sacrament. I was blessed by one of them. They are assets to the church, and anyone who says they can't serve in any capacity really need to the think about what Mary said at the annunciation,

"I am the Lord's servant, may it be unto me as you have said." (!?)

Appreciate you.
A Roman Catholic Church? If so, that is an EMHC. Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. They are trained for the duty. You could not of been doing that in a Roman Catholic Church if you are not Catholic.
 
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Rely_942

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A Roman Catholic Church? If so, that is an EMHC. Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion. They are trained for the duty. You could not of been doing that in a Roman Catholic Church if you are not Catholic.
Hmm. Are there different kinds of Catholic churches in communion with the Vatican?
 
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Strong in Him

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That verse is not taken out of context to mean anything other than what the plain language states.
The passage - if we start reading at verse 8 - says:
Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Paul is giving instructions on worship.

Firstly, it is unreasonable to seek to enforce one verse and not the others in the passage. Yet no one ever writes/debates about whether men hold up holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing; nor why women are given gold wedding rings in church when Paul forbids us from wearing them.
Secondly, you talk of "plain language"; strange that some translations have the word "wife" in v 11. There was clearly some dispute over which was correct.
Thirdly, Paul states that women should be allowed to learn - they hadn't been. And yes, they should learn in silence; as everyone should, or you might miss something. This can be seen with Eve; she didn't know what God had commanded, so it was easier to trick her. Yes, she gave Adam some of the fruit, but he - who did know what God wanted - chose to eat it.
So yes, Paul might well be saying that a wife should learn in silence and with submission - not interrupting her husband, or teacher.
That is a long way from saying that God cannot call a woman to teach in his church.
1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Yes - and it would have been very simple, and clarified matters considerably, had Paul said "and the Spirit will NEVER give those gifts to a woman".
But he didn't. Neither did he say, 2 chapters later, that women must not speak in tongues or prophesy. In fact, in chapter 11 he tells women HOW to pray and prophesy - with their heads covered.
Women prophesied in the OT - Deborah gave Barak a word from the Lord, and male priests chose to consult a female prophet, Huldah, when the King wanted a word from the Lord.
 
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Rely_942

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The passage - if we start reading at verse 8 - says:

Paul is giving instructions on worship.

Firstly, it is unreasonable to seek to enforce one verse and not the others in the passage. Yet no one ever writes/debates about whether men hold up holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing; nor why women are given gold wedding rings in church when Paul forbids us from wearing them.
Secondly, you talk of "plain language"; strange that some translations have the word "wife" in v 11. There was clearly some dispute over which was correct.
Thirdly, Paul states that women should be allowed to learn - they hadn't been. And yes, they should learn in silence; as everyone should, or you might miss something. This can be seen with Eve; she didn't know what God had commanded, so it was easier to trick her. Yes, she gave Adam some of the fruit, but he - who did know what God wanted - chose to eat it.
So yes, Paul might well be saying that a wife should learn in silence and with submission - not interrupting her husband, or teacher.
That is a long way from saying that God cannot call a woman to teach in his church.

Yes - and it would have been very simple, and clarified matters considerably, had Paul said "and the Spirit will NEVER give those gifts to a woman".
But he didn't. Neither did he say, 2 chapters later, that women must not speak in tongues or prophesy. In fact, in chapter 11 he tells women HOW to pray and prophesy - with their heads covered.
Women prophesied in the OT - Deborah gave Barak a word from the Lord, and male priests chose to consult a female prophet, Huldah, when the King wanted a word from the Lord.
Do men in churches read verse 11 and seriously think they don't have to apply it to themselves when they are in church/mass?

By the way, I'm a male. We're seriously sounding a little chauvinistic right now. Not trying to hurt anyone's feelings.

Appreciate you guys.
 
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ralliann

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The idea of women clergy comes not from the gospel but from the secular advancement of women's rights. The advancement of women's rights is certainly a noble goal, but the Church is not the place for it. That is not the reason the Church exists. Jesus chose only men as his apostles to advance the gospel, And while many women have played very important roles in that, women were not chosen for it. Jesus himself demonstrated a difference between men and women. He said to Mary:

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father;

But then to Thomas:

John 20:27 Then He said to Thomas, “Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side.

So to a woman he said do not touch me, but then to a man touch me. There is a difference between men and women.
There is this too.

1Pet. 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Gen 18:
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?

The situation seemed to be God spoke to Abraham, not Sara. Sara heard it and laughed, the lord told Abraham Sara laughed, Then Abe asked Sarah? But the Lord never spoke directly with Sarah.
 
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Strong in Him

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Do men in churches read verse 11 and seriously think they don't have to apply it to themselves when they are in church/mass?
I don't know.
How many men raise their hands when they pray?
 
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Strong in Him

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There is this too.

1Pet. 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.

Gen 18:
11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?
Sarah and Abraham were married - another great argument for reading 1 Tim 2:12 as "wife" and not "woman".
 
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Rely_942

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I don't know.
How many men raise their hands when they pray?
Not sure either...

... How many men does it take to screw in a light bulb?

... How many men does it take to go to the restroom together? ... (Hope that doesn't sound stupid...)

... How many men... does it take... to exegete one verse of Scripture correctly?

***Rant over***
 
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Rely_942

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I don't know.
How many men raise their hands when they pray?
Not sure either

... How many men does it take to screw in a light bulb?

... How many men does it take to go to the restroom together? ... (Hope that doesn't sound stupid...)

... How many men... does it take... to exegete one verse of Scripture correctly?

***Rant over***

And why don't my emojis show up?
 
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HTacianas

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The passage - if we start reading at verse 8 - says:

Paul is giving instructions on worship.

Firstly, it is unreasonable to seek to enforce one verse and not the others in the passage. Yet no one ever writes/debates about whether men hold up holy hands in prayer without anger or disputing; nor why women are given gold wedding rings in church when Paul forbids us from wearing them.
Secondly, you talk of "plain language"; strange that some translations have the word "wife" in v 11. There was clearly some dispute over which was correct.
Thirdly, Paul states that women should be allowed to learn - they hadn't been. And yes, they should learn in silence; as everyone should, or you might miss something. This can be seen with Eve; she didn't know what God had commanded, so it was easier to trick her. Yes, she gave Adam some of the fruit, but he - who did know what God wanted - chose to eat it.
So yes, Paul might well be saying that a wife should learn in silence and with submission - not interrupting her husband, or teacher.
That is a long way from saying that God cannot call a woman to teach in his church.

Yes - and it would have been very simple, and clarified matters considerably, had Paul said "and the Spirit will NEVER give those gifts to a woman".
But he didn't. Neither did he say, 2 chapters later, that women must not speak in tongues or prophesy. In fact, in chapter 11 he tells women HOW to pray and prophesy - with their heads covered.
Women prophesied in the OT - Deborah gave Barak a word from the Lord, and male priests chose to consult a female prophet, Huldah, when the King wanted a word from the Lord.
Why would Paul have said the Spirit would never give any of those gifts to a woman?
 
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Michie

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Hmm. Are there different kinds of Catholic churches in communion with the Vatican?
Yes like Eastern Catholics but you cannot take communion without becoming a Roman Catholic any of them. To be in union with the Vatican it is the same teachings.
 
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Rely_942

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Yes like Eastern Catholics but you cannot take communion without becoming a Roman Catholic any of them. To be in union with the Vatican it is the same teachings.
Oh I knew that last thing you wrote.

I keep going up to get blessings week after week. Happy to. The Lord is good.
 
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BeeFive

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Read about all the females in the Bible.

Miriam, sister of moses and aaron were all Levi priests.
Debra
Hulda
Philips 2 daughters
Priscilla

Acts 2:17
Luke then quotes our verse from Joel in Acts 2:17, In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on ALL people; your SONS AND DAUGHTERS will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

God uses "symbolism" and parallell meanings.

"Wife /"woman"/ "religion" = Christians...God's "wife" IS BOTH men and women. NOONE is to be disruptive in service.

God is our(Christian religion, both men and women).. "Husband".
God is our husband.

So also if any "woman"/"religion" is not Christianity (in a Christian service) ... they are not to speak/disrupt that Christian service...
They (that "religion"/"woman" ) can go "home" and ask whoever THEIR "husband"(god) is questions, since it is not our God who is our(christians' husband) that is not Christianity...If their god is not our God... they are not to disrupt our christian service.

The "woman"/"wife"/"religion" that God is "husband" to is Christians.

If any other religion/"woman" comes into that Christian service,... they are not to disrupt that christian service as "their" false god is NOT the True God and HE( the Lord Jesus Christ) is not their (false religion) GOd/Husband. They should go home to their husband(false god) and ask him(their false god) questions.

God is not a discriminator and we are all equal. HE chooses who He will.
 
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Michie

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Oh I knew that last thing you wrote.

I keep going up to get blessings week after week. Happy to. The Lord is good.
So did you help distribute or receive communion? Which Church was it? :scratch:
 
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Strong in Him

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Why would Paul have said the Spirit would never give any of those gifts to a woman?
If he knew it was God's will that women would never, or never be allowed to, teach/prophesy, why would he not have said so?
In Ephesians 4:11 he said that God gave some to be Pastors - again, not gender specific.
 
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BibleLinguist

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Miriam, sister of moses and aaron were all Levi priests.
Debra
Hulda
Philips 2 daughters
Priscilla
Do you have scriptures to support these women being priests? Even Moses from that list was not a priest. Aaron was the only priest among those.

Deborah, Hulda, and other women were prophetesses. Balaam's female donkey prophesied, too. But to my knowledge we have no Biblical record of God establishing a woman to a position of spiritual leadership (e.g. priestess) or to civil leadership (e.g. queen) over His people.
 
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Do you have scriptures to support these women being priests? Even Moses from that list was not a priest. Aaron was the only priest among those.
Women were not ordained priests in the OT, no.
Though interestingly, I recently read that Moses' wife, Zipporah, performed a priestly role when she circumcised their son, Exodus 4:25. It seemed she also saved his life by doing so.
Deborah, Hulda, and other women were prophetesses.
As were Isaiah's wife and Philip's daughters, yes.
But the OP said "it is written that women should shout (sic) their mouths in church", and some quote 1 Timothy 2:12 or 1 Corinthians 14:34 to "prove" that women shouldn't even speak in church. Indeed there was once someone on these forums who said that his wife didn't even say "Amen" in church so as not to disobey Scripture.
So people need to be clear what they are saying. Is it that women can't speak, or sing, in church; that women can obviously speak but not preach, or that women can preach but not be ordained to lead? Because often the same verses are used for all 3.
 
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