Working for the Jubilee!

[Shane Roach]

The thing is, the Biblical Jubilee was only part of an entire mindset that was supposed to go along with the various economic commandments for Israel. For example, if you had debts to settle with a man, and you knew the Jubilee was soon, you were not supposed to treat it as such. If you took him as a slave you were to value his term of slavery just as if it were going to be the full 7 years.

The whole spirit of the collective economic system is that people actually care about each other. Communist, capitalist, or anything in between, unless people can be convinced to care, the system itself can be perverted.

IF we forgive debtor nations their debt, that is good, but the thing that has to be understood is then, on top of that, we have to be willing to look for other people in that nation and loan them money all over again. we have to be willing to do that over and over till we find someone who will do it right. And we have to do this in a clever enough fashion not to ruin our own economy pouring good money after bad over and over again.

This is all very difficult, which I suspect is why it is such a controversial problem to begin with. It's not so easy as some people seem to want to make it out.

But the first step is the caring about people more than institutions. If we care about our nation more than we care about our people, and other people, then we're already way down the wrong road.

 

[Catchup]

But the first step is the caring about people more than institutions. If we care about our nation more than we care about our people, and other people, then we're already way down the wrong road.

But If we do not keep our nation strong it will not matter what we think or care.

LOVE

 

[TruelightUK]

A very brief response: I'm working out of town from tomorrow for a week, and still have stuff to do!

Firstly, on the 'anti-america' point, as a citizen of one probalbly the most influential colonial power of previous centuries, I can't really point too many fingers at America for creating conditions leading to the present situation in Africa, Southern Asia etc. Tho' it has to be said that, in the past half century or so they have been the most influential in shaping world response to the terrible state of such nations, via the World Bank etc. - thus must take a good share of the blame for the situation that is in place now. While the responses of certain US nationals in this thread serve to illustrate the kind of right-wing, chauvinistic, blinkered arrogance which many of us 'poor relations' tend to assocaite with that nation. And, sadly, particularly with the 'Christianity' of the Bible-belt. But of course, this is not entirely fair to many decent, enlightened, compassionate US citizens, who tend not to grab the headlines. Or, sadly, have a great deal of influence on government policy; maybe because they lack economic 'clout'!

As proof of which, I'd offer the following link to a US site, drawn to my attention elsewhere at these Boards - which deals very responsibly (in my view) with these kinds of issues, headed by Ronald Sider, on of the authors who had the biggest influence in shaping my own attitudes to loifestyle choices etc. back in the 80s; http://www.esa-online.org/

As for the full details of how debt cancellation might work in practice, I suggest you check out sites like http://www.jubileedebtcampaign.org.uk , Christian Aid, Oxfam etc., who are far more knowledgeable than me insuch matters! From what I read, though, it seems clear that the small amount of relief that has so far been forthcoming has already begun to make some impact on public health programmes and the like in some African nations. As has already been said, not every indebted government is a 'bad', corrupt or oppressive one - though they may have inherited the problems created by such regimes.

Alternatives to capitlaism? I've alreqady said there is no perfect politcal/economic syste. A little thing called 'sin' will always manipulate every system to the advantage of some over others. Indeed, I don't have a problem with some of the ideals etc. of 'enlightened capitalism' - if such a thing exists in this day and age! - whereby the worst potential excesses of a total free market 'survival of the fittest' economy are controlled by some kind of social democratic awareness of the needs of all sectors of society. The example of such early industrialists as the Rowntrees and Cadburys who generated wealth to benefit their workers, and finance social improvement schemes would not be a bad one to follow - but, there again the sin factor means such benevolent folk are few and far between, so a responsible government has to assume a degree of control to protect the weak and vulnerable. It is only when the power of wealth is allowed to steamroller its way across the lives of the less influential, vocal and able in society that I really start to cry 'foul'!

And of course, the trouble with 'democracy' is that governments have to play to the interests of their own citizens, over and above that of more needy folk overseas - we may be happy to finance a Health Service from which our own families may benefit, but resent the 'drain' on our resources to improve the lot of 'distant people of whom we know little.' So self-interest always tends to win out over altruism in the end - there goes that 'sin' thing again!

Sorry if this has not been totally coherent; I've just finished a 28 hour stint at work!

Anthony

 

[Kiwi]

hi coastie, lets not back to our old habit of mudslinging whose country is best etc etc. I can think of lots of good things about americans, they give alot to missions and support their missionaries well financially, which is more than I can say for most NZ churches. And they are generous with helping out people. They are friendly and interested in others. The problem seems to be that you do not seem to be able to seperate the government from the people. By people saying they do not agree with american government foreign policy does not mean they do not like america or americans in general. There are lots of things wrong in my country, I'm not afraid to admit that. Admitting that there are problems means you are half way to solving them. Having lived overseas in Europe, South America and the Carribean I can tell there is a lot of anti-american sentiment out there, but most of it is towards government policies, not towards americans themselves, you know, the average person on the street. So don't get offended, most of this stuff is directed at your government, and in my case the Bush administration, I thought Clinton did a good job in foreign policy.

 

[coastie]

Kiwi,

I harbor no ill-will here.

I wasn't mudslinging at any other country either, just defending my position. There are many things wrong with every nation because they are run by human's who are fallible (especially when they have power).

And I did state that I believed you were anti-America not anti-American. However, I did not mean for that to be an insult, so I apologize for not wording it in a less confrontational manner. I have a feeling that no matter what you and I will butt heads on political issues, which is fine. I like having someone to debate with, as long as we agree on the one true, living God, then I have due respect for you as my sister in Christ.

Zach

 

[Brimshack]

I'm not sure that we need to talk about communism versus capitalism, or even communism then capitalism. The terms are just a bit too abstract, and I think breaking them down is the first step to dealing with these issues. I think Coastie may be onto something if we simply assert that a planned economy might be more critical in developing an economy. (Shane is also right in aknowledging that Socialism is part of the so-called capitalist systems.) Free market values are more useful when the nations businessmen have accumulated enough capital to fend for themselves. Such measures were a fundamental part of american history, though Cold War rhetoric has caused us to forget the degree to which America's early growth was subsidized by government programs.

To some extent we are tripping over te central paradox of government. If people always did the right thing no government would be necessary to control them, but since beople cannot be relied upon to do the right thing, no government is adequate. Among other things this means we have to be careful not to think any one model of government is a sure fix. That's one of the things I think America's founding fathers got right. They didn't wait for the perople to become pure; they planned a government that would work despite the corruption of the people and their politicans. To some extent this entailed advocacy of high ideals such as republicanism, but to some extent that also entailed down-and-dirty compromises (e.g. the bicameral Congress).

There have been several suggestions that third world debt won't be solved unless the governments adopt a more caring approach to their own people. I don't mean to discount problems with local corruption, but I do think that it is (or must be) possible to find solutions given local circumstances.

Anyway, the need for some democratic reforms is critical, but as ws noted earlier that has often been tied to the issue of debt relief (and rightly so). Perhaps that is part of te answer to the issue of future credit in the wake of debt-cancelation.

 

[Shane Roach]

Probably the first step to proper treatment of foreign debt is to change the prevailing attitude of debt here at home. Private entities collect information on your debt recornd and have very little culpability if they screw up. Many organizations that report debt to credit reporting agencies play fast and loose with the truth, and the bottom line with individual debt in general is that all money lending is a risk, and I don't feel that a company formed to keep "track" of debt without also keeping track of how responsibly, or iresponsibly, the money was loaned to begin with, is legitimate.

Our debt records are becoming a more and more important part of our every day lives. Some people can't even get certain jobs because of a debt problem. People's ability to get insurance is effected. Credit cards have become absolutely usuerous in their practices, and a large portion of the American economy is so unpredictable that an honest person can easily have a good job and take on some debt only to lose that job and be stuck with that debt through no fault of their own. Did the lending company check the reputation of the exployer before they stuck the borrower with bad credit? The issue is very complex, and while I certainly believe that people ahve a right to information concerning a person's credit history, I'm fairly sure the present system is broken.

These same kinds of concerns apply to the way credit is sometimes used as a weapon in corporate and foreign policy dealings as well.

And whoever took the gratuitous snipe at the "Bible Belt" can jump off a cliff, as far as I'm concerned. This knee jerk liberal attitude towards anyone with religious conviction only gets more irritating with time. In case you were ill informed, most the largest, most powerful corporate entities in this country do NOT come from the Bible Belt, and blaming this country's agresive foreign policy on the south is laughable. Try guessing which state likes to refer to itself as the "Empire State".

Better yet, try just keeping latent anti-religious prejudice to yourself.

 

[Susan]

Bono is the Antichrist.
The Jubilee is a false notion.
I wish people would stop spreading untruths.

 

[Shane Roach]

Originally posted by Susan
Bono is the Antichrist.
The Jubilee is a false notion.
I wish people would stop spreading untruths.

Hmm? The Jubilee is a direct reference to an OT scripture. Neither the practice nor ideas on how to better deal with capital and lending and borrowing are against God, as far as I can see... What are you trying to say, exactly?

 

[Susan]

The globalist Jubilee that U2 and the UN are fighting for among others. That is what is wrong.
I'm bowing out now

 

[coastie]

While Bono does have a somewhat questionable agenda, the likelihood of him ever getting any tye of real political power is not good.

As a side note... in the 80's he was in a Christian Rock Group with 2 other members of U2.

 

[Esdiar]

Hello again all, particualrly Coastie and co.

America-bashing? Hardly. Read these extracts from my original post:

Originally posted by Esdiar
That's what the US (and regrettably my country too) did for years in Angola; and look at the result.

If Christianity requires us to be charitable - which it does - and if the Scripture enjoins us to give a man our cloak when he simply wants to borrow it - which it does - then are Western Christians not under a Biblical as well as a clear moral duty to cancel the debt owed by Third World countries that had their wealth plundered by colonial powers like the US, Spain, Portugal, France, the UK, Belgium, Germany, the Nethelands and Italy?

I quite clearly in that post used the USA as a prime example of the problem, but not as the sole perpetrator. Perhaps it would be easier for all concerned to simply face up to the fact that the USA has much to answer for, rather than whistling dixie everytime is is pointed out that the USA is as romanic in its policies as could be.

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by Susan
The globalist Jubilee that U2 and the UN are fighting for among others. That is what is wrong.
I'm bowing out now

Hi susan!

I do wish you wouldn't throw those little controversial asides into the argument then refuse to justify or explain yourn position in any way. do you not agree that - whatever the particualr failings of individuals or organisaitions invovled - the basic principles of 'forgiving' debt and endebtedness so that the disposessed and oppressed may regain dignity and the ability to support themselves is in keeping with Biblical principles, specifically the regulations regarding Jubilee?

Anthony

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by Shane Roach

And whoever took the gratuitous snipe at the "Bible Belt" can jump off a cliff, as far as I'm concerned. This knee jerk liberal attitude towards anyone with religious conviction only gets more irritating with time. In case you were ill informed, most the largest, most powerful corporate entities in this country do NOT come from the Bible Belt, and blaming this country's agresive foreign policy on the south is laughable. Try guessing which state likes to refer to itself as the "Empire State".

Better yet, try just keeping latent anti-religious prejudice to yourself.

Ho, ho, ho! I guess I touched a raw nerve there, eh?

I have no intention of jumping off any cliffs, and, should you feel the desire to push me, I consider myself in good company! (Luke 4:29)

My remarks about Bible Belt chauvinism had little to do with the political and economic influence of such people, and a great deal to do with the blatantly un-christlike attitudes which seem to me to characterise the 'fundementalist' churchianity of many in that region. I don't wish to sidetrack this thread by a more detailed expose, but certainly feel under no compuction to avoid higlighting hypocrisy wherever it may surface among those ardently proclaiming allegiance to Christ yet bringing his name into disrepute by their selective and distorted application of his Word.

Anthony

 

[coastie]

Let's stay off the "Bible belt" issue. One reason is that it is nothing like it used to be, another reason is that their Biblically based ideals are the mortar to the moral bricks of the US. Lord help us if a more "progressive" State like California actually ran the country.

You want to see the armpit of Capitalism... look in good ol' Cali (probably the least Christian State in the country).

 

[TruelightUK]

Originally posted by coastie
Let's stay off the "Bible belt" issue. One reason is that it is nothing like it used to be

Okay, I'll take your word for it - tho' not generally the impression one gets this side of the Atlantic! (You mean it used to be worse ???)

another reason is that their Biblically based ideals are the mortar to the moral bricks of the US.

Hmm... no comment!
Tho' I'd be happy to debate specifics - and reserve the right to point out the fallacies which masquerade as Christianity, while avoiding the temptation to generalise about which areas of America hold to such views!

You want to see the armpit of Capitalism... look in good ol' Cali (probably the least Christian State in the country).

Hey, I though I was the judgemental one around here

Anthony

 

[TruelightUK]

..for any of you who do agree that the wealthy west needs to forgive the crippling debt repayments of developing nations, that there are just over 3 weeks left to petition your government representatives before the G* summit in Canada at the end of the month.


And, if you live in the UK, there is a mass lobby of parliament on these issues scheduled for 19th June, organised by Christan Aid, Tearfund, Oxfam and similar organisations - see their websites for details. Unfortunately, due to work committments I won't be there so if you're going speak up for me!?!

Anthony

 

[Brimshack]

"Let's stay off the "Bible belt" issue …another reason is that their Biblically based ideals are the mortar to the moral bricks of the US."

…errp, deerrrp, Doooh! (Cough! Cough!)

 

[coastie]

For every one except Brim, I meant to say. Sometimes I forget that this forum is now in the general discussion section not the "Christians Only" section.

 

[Brimshack]

I feel better now.