Women's Restrictions?

[LutherNut]

I thought historically, Paul was speaking to specific women in specific problem churches.

The inspired, inerrant Word of God applies to all people of all time. The argument you use here is the same used by the ELCA to justify ordaining women, tolerating homosexual behavior, supporting abortion, etc. The only real way to justify these things in the church is to trash and put down God's Word, making it something that it's not. Although Paul is indeed addressing a problem within a specific Church, the teaching that he applies to this problem is God's teaching to all people. (see 1 Corinthians 14:37) Paul isn't simply making up a rule that only applies to a certain people at a certain time. If that were the case, then his writings have no business being in the canon of Scripture.


Jay

 

[Jim47]

The inspired, inerrant Word of God applies to all people of all time. The argument you use here is the same used by the ELCA to justify ordaining women, tolerating homosexual behavior, supporting abortion, etc. The only real way to justify these things in the church is to trash and put down God's Word, making it something that it's not. Although Paul is indeed addressing a problem within a specific Church, the teaching that he applies to this problem is God's teaching to all people. (see 1 Corinthians 14:37) Paul isn't simply making up a rule that only applies to a certain people at a certain time. If that were the case, then his writings have no business being in the canon of Scripture.


Jay

 

[Flipper]

The inspired, inerrant Word of God applies to all people of all time. The argument you use here is the same used by the ELCA to justify ordaining women, tolerating homosexual behavior, supporting abortion, etc. The only real way to justify these things in the church is to trash and put down God's Word, making it something that it's not. Although Paul is indeed addressing a problem within a specific Church, the teaching that he applies to this problem is God's teaching to all people. (see 1 Corinthians 14:37) Paul isn't simply making up a rule that only applies to a certain people at a certain time. If that were the case, then his writings have no business being in the canon of Scripture.


Jay

Actually, I wasn't arguing, just bringing up what I was taught regarding Biblical history - and it was at an LCMS college.

Still, I don't see any basis for the master/slave analogy Paul uses to mean within a marriage. In an employment situation, yes.

 

[LutherNut]

Actually, I wasn't arguing, just bringing up what I was taught regarding Biblical history - and it was at an LCMS college.

Unfortuately, there are still a few leftovers from the pre-Seminex days who still hold to the historical-critical view of Biblical interpretation.

Still, I don't see any basis for the master/slave analogy Paul uses to mean within a marriage. In an employment situation, yes.

I'm not sure where you see this. Paul isn't suggesting at all that a woman is in servitude to her husband, but rather the husband and wife each have roles given them by God. The husband is to provide and care for his wife and family. The wife is to assist him in this, but not desire to do this herself. This comes directly to the post-Fall roles that God imposed on Adam and Eve in Genesis 3.


Jay

 

[Jim47]

Still, I don't see any basis for the master/slave analogy Paul uses to mean within a marriage. In an employment situation, yes.

This is a very hard teching to explain, and I may very well botch my attempt, but maybe someone else will understand what I am trying to say and help me out.

The scripture that came to mind is the very last verse in the following. I don't like to take scripture out of context, so here is the whole paragraph.

1Ti 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—

1Ti 2:2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,

1Ti 2:4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time.

1Ti 2:7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

1Ti 2:8 I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.

1Ti 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes,

1Ti 2:10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

1Ti 2:11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.

1Ti 2:12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.

1Ti 2:13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

1Ti 2:15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Again, lets focus on the last verse. I brought this scripture verse to my Pastor a while back in a Bible class. It was quite obvious to me that it was telling something deeper than, "women have to bear children to be saved". My Pastor jokingly commended me for picking out what he called one of the most difficult passages in the bible. But the actual explaination is quite simple. The answer or true meaning lies in the second part of verse 15. Bearing children actaully has nothing to do with it. What Paul is saying here is exactly what LutherNut said, "that we have God given roles" and when we faithfully perform these assigned roles, it pleases God. Why? Because we are then witnesses that what God has told us is true, and because we believe "His Word" and not our own reason or human logic.

Paul's explaination or righteousness through faith.

Righteousness Through Faith

Ro 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Ro 3:22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,

Ro 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ro 3:24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Ro 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—

Ro 3:26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Ro 3:27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.

Ro 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Ro 3:29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Ro 3:30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Ro 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Abraham Justified by Faith

Ro 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?

Ro 4:2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God.

Ro 4:3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Ro 4:4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

Ro 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

Ro 4:6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Ro 4:7 "Blessed are they

whose transgressions are forgiven,

whose sins are covered.

Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man

whose sin the Lord will never count against him


This is in my eyes, why the historical critical method of accepting scripture is so wrong, plus there are scriptures that speak about this.

Mt 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

2 Tim:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2Pe 1:19 And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Sorry if this has gotten a little lengthy and off course.

 

[Flatscan82]

On another thread Flipper wrote: I wish there were more female WELS members on here. I would love to hear their take on the more severe restrictions on women.

I don't go to a WELS church, but my female cousin does. Could you please tell me what kinds of restrictions there are? Especiall the "severe" ones. Thanks!

If you read the teachings of Jesus, women are equal to men. When you start reading all the letters of Paul, James, Jude, and Peter. Women are no longer equal. Some of the letters written in the NT were to Female leaders of churches. I don't like Paul or any of the apostles. The have strayed from Christ originally teachings. If anything women will get to heaven ahead of men any day. It was Christ who said blessed are the meek for they will inherit the kingdom of God, and if you compare a male to a female. By in large 70% of females are more meeker than men


there are a few other versus but need to look them up, but i need to get to my class.

 

[dusky_tresses]

no women aren't equal but we aren't inferior either...at least that is what I have been taught. We are "different"...

 

[Flatscan82]

no women aren't equal but we aren't inferior either...at least that is what I have been taught. We are "different"...

I am a student of science the and a student of God. And what I know from science is that women only differ in the X and Y chromosomes, even then the lines are blurred because with certain birth defects you can have a Female that have both an X and Y chromosome. The only major difference being is that they can't not produce children.


And what then. Don’t we all come from the same place? The womb of our mother? You can bring up Adam and Eve if you would like. That god made Eve from the rib of Adam but didn't we all also descend from the womb of eve. And after Adam dies and the daughters of Adam produce children. Didn’t we also descend from their wombs with the seed of Adam’s sons who also came from the womb of Eve?

It says in the NT that God if he so wishes could rise up descendants of Abraham from rocks lying on the ground. If God could rise up a human from a stone then is it that far of a stretch to say that the word of God could be preached by a woman?

It also says in acts to “do not call what God has created profane” and the writers of the NT (outside of the 4 gospels of curse) have committed that sin my placing a woman lower than a man. For Christ says we are all children of God.

 

[Godfixated]

If you read the teachings of Jesus, women are equal to men. When you start reading all the letters of Paul, James, Jude, and Peter. Women are no longer equal. Some of the letters written in the NT were to Female leaders of churches. I don't like Paul or any of the apostles. The have strayed from Christ originally teachings. If anything women will get to heaven ahead of men any day. It was Christ who said blessed are the meek for they will inherit the kingdom of God, and if you compare a male to a female. By in large 70% of females are more meeker than men


there are a few other versus but need to look them up, but i need to get to my class.

We already discussed this before. Paul or any of the other apostles never once say that women are lesser than men. There are a couple of places in the Word where verses have been taken out of the context, mainly 1 Corinthians 14; yet, this passage is only talking about prophets wives.

 

[Flatscan82]

We already discussed this before. Paul or any of the other apostles never once say that women are lesser than men. There are a couple of places in the Word where verses have been taken out of the context, mainly 1 Corinthians 14; yet, this passage is only talking about prophets wives.

that may be so, but honestly i don't think Paul likes women very much..I think some little jewish girl really broke his heart one day

 

[LilLamb219]

It also says in acts to “do not call what God has created profane” and the writers of the NT (outside of the 4 gospels of curse) have committed that sin my placing a woman lower than a man. For Christ says we are all children of God.

I really don't see that interpretation (that women are low-lifes). Adam was created first and then Eve was created for him and from his body. There is that type of connection and relationship that is carried over and should always be remembered. It's the same connection and relationship of the bride and bridegroom and Christ and His church. If we truly look to see how Christ treats His bride the church, we see how men should treat women.

As for the office of holy ministry, scriptures say that women should not preach. It goes back to the order of creation and what I just wrote. It's not about man being better than woman. It's just not a vocation that women should have.

 

[Jim47]

that may be so, but honestly i don't think Paul likes women very much..I think some little jewish girl really broke his heart one day

That would be a bad assumption. If you look at scripture you will see that Paul held Godly women in high reguard.

Ac 18:1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth.
Ac 18:2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome.

Notice that he mentions the wifes name name but not the husbands name in the above scripture. Then in the following scripture he mentions her name before giving his name. Doesn't sound to me like Paul had a low opinion of women.

Ac 18:18 Paul stayed on in Corinth for some time. Then he left the brothers and sailed for Syria, accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila. Before he sailed, he had his hair cut off at Cenchrea because of a vow he had taken.
Ac 18:19 They arrived at Ephesus, where Paul left Priscilla and Aquila. He himself went into the synagogue and reasoned with the Jews.

Rather he showed respect for God's direction as was taught to him directly by Jesus. in the following scripture again Paul directs attention to yet another lady who had helped him is his ministry, and then again he mentions Priscilla and praises her work and then later in the following scriptures he again praises yet other women.

Ro 16:1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church in Cenchrea.
Ro 16:2 I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me.
Ro 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus.
Ro 16:4 They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.
Ro 16:5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.
Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.
Ro 16:6 Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.
Ro 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
Ro 16:8 Greet Ampliatus, whom I love in the Lord.
Ro 16:9 Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.
Ro 16:10 Greet Apelles, tested and approved in Christ.
Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.
Ro 16:11 Greet Herodion, my relative.
Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.
Ro 16:12 Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.
Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.
Ro 16:13 Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.
Ro 16:14 Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the brothers with them.
Ro 16:15 Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the saints with them.
Ro 16:16 Greet one another with a holy kiss.
All the churches of Christ send greetings.
Ro 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
Ro 16:18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
Ro 16:19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.
Ro 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.


Notice in verse 17 his warning about people causing devisions. It would be quite apparent to me that part of his warning included that women should be respected and that they should follow The Lord's direction given to them.

You might find it hard to believe but I have never heard one woman in my church voice a complaint why women shouldn't be considered in the Ministry. I think the following scripture also gives us direction in that Jesus did not seek equality with His Father.

Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

It doesn't seem too hard to me that we should follow God's direction when our Savior gave His life so that we might be called "the children of God"

 

[ILoveYeshua]

nevertheless, they still should cover their head in church, right? and is that so much to ask, you ladies with beautiful flowing hair? =) trying to focus here! =)