Whats your view of Crowder theology?

[splat]

I know there are people that are trying to bring the teachings of John Crowder into my country under the banner of organic Christianity? What do people think about it and is it biblical? Is Crowder the leading proponent of organic Christianity or is that only a self-contained subsection of it? Would be interested in your views.

 

[jamadan]

Crowder's new mysticism is to be avoided at all cost. He makes Todd Bentley seem like an orthodox preacher.

The following summary of Crowder was put together by Eternity Impact - a website. I can't link to them yet as I'm still to new to the forum and they won't let me create links. So I'll clip some snippets from their site here:

Crowder and his new mystics will teach and promote: Levitation, Stigmata, Translation & transportation, Bilocations, Body elongation, Shape shifting, Invisibility, how to accessing the 'Divine books of destiny' (ex. The Lambʼs Book of Life), operating in trances and raptures (even affirming Native American Kiva Trances as authentic Christian Mysticism, and Spirit travel.

They teach people to toke Holy Spirit marijuana. They literally go to the graves of famous Christian mystics and get spiritual highs by "snorting lines" off the tombstone. They strive for "milk comas" by fondling and sucking on Jesus' imaginary breast (some refer to it as suckling Lucy the milk
angel), going so far as to drink straight from cow [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to get a "spiritual milk" coma. They encourage "rolling in the butter" - groups of people rolling and flailing over, around and on top of each other. Worship services are "slosh" pits that resemble Woodstock partying. They are physically rough with people holding people for extended times in headlocks and even putting horse saddles on each other and riding each other around the room (some of their ministry partners physically hit and kick people while praying for them). They and their ministry partners intersperse their talking with dog, wolf, snake, chicken, sheep, pig and bird noises. One of their ministry partners flips people off calling it the apostolic blessing of the middle finger from the 3rd heaven. Others foam at the mouth, drooling uncontrollably (one partner even
started "drooling ministries") and pretend to go into hard labor giving birth to "worldwide revival."

In my opinion, Crowder and the new mystics are an extreme version joining Todd Bentley, Patricia King and Bob Jones as demonically possessed wolves in sheeps clothes. They are about as dangerous as it comes. That they are invited into churches and allowed to pretend to be ministers of Christ is just unfathomable to me. It reflects on how far from Christ and the discerning of the Holy Spirit the Church has fallen.

 

[splat]

ok, thanks for that. I must admit watching the youtube clips of him made me feel somewhat uneasy.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Who's Crowder? n/p

 

[Tobias]

I know there are people that are trying to bring the teachings of John Crowder into my country under the banner of organic Christianity? What do people think about it and is it biblical? Is Crowder the leading proponent of organic Christianity or is that only a self-contained subsection of it? Would be interested in your views.

I consider myself a Christian Mystic, so of course I've been a little curious about Crowder and his teachings about the "New Mystics." I think for the most part our corner of Christianity thinks poorly of anything called mysticism, just because we don't normally use that name. However many of our common Charismatic and Pentecostal practices are mystical in nature, according to the definition of the term.

In religion, sects that are mystical in nature are ones that place value in experiencing spiritual things. Asking Jesus into your heart is a mystical thing to do. Reading the Bible and expecting God to speak to you or the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of scripture is likewise. And pretty much everything having to do with the Gifts of the Spirit.

Christianity has a long tradition of mystics, mostly forgotten by Evangelical Christians because we think they were weird. Crowder tries to bring his movement back in touch with the history of these saints, and seeks to combine their experiences with those of the Pentecostals (iirc, I read a couple of his books some years ago.) In theory I think this is a decent idea, and is rather similar to what I do.

In practice though... there are many things that fit the category of "mystical" that are not necessarily good! People can have mystical experiences with any number of pagan gods, or even Satan himself. But if we react to that fact by saying all experience is bad, then what do we have besides empty religion? Christianity is supposed to be a path that allows us to connect with God, and if we don't ever make that connection (or remember that we once did), I don't think that is anything to brag about nor a good reason to teach other people to never expect anything *real* from God!

I can't say I agree with much of what I hear Crowder and Co. are doing. But some of us aren't really given much of a choice whether we are going to experience God or not, He just kind of forces this stuff upon us! The only choice we have is to either walk the path He places before us, or abandon the thought of walking through life with Him and give in to the fears so many have -- that everything experiential in nature is of the Devil, and only those who serve God purely from their intellect are the ones who are the *True* Christians.

 

[jamadan]

I consider myself a Christian Mystic, so of course I've been a little curious about Crowder and his teachings about the "New Mystics." I think for the most part our corner of Christianity thinks poorly of anything called mysticism, just because we don't normally use that name. However many of our common Charismatic and Pentecostal practices are mystical in nature, according to the definition of the term.

In religion, sects that are mystical in nature are ones that place value in experiencing spiritual things. Asking Jesus into your heart is a mystical thing to do. Reading the Bible and expecting God to speak to you or the Holy Spirit to reveal the true meaning of scripture is likewise. And pretty much everything having to do with the Gifts of the Spirit.

Christianity has a long tradition of mystics, mostly forgotten by Evangelical Christians because we think they were weird. Crowder tries to bring his movement back in touch with the history of these saints, and seeks to combine their experiences with those of the Pentecostals (iirc, I read a couple of his books some years ago.) In theory I think this is a decent idea, and is rather similar to what I do.

In practice though... there are many things that fit the category of "mystical" that are not necessarily good! People can have mystical experiences with any number of pagan gods, or even Satan himself. But if we react to that fact by saying all experience is bad, then what do we have besides empty religion? Christianity is supposed to be a path that allows us to connect with God, and if we don't ever make that connection (or remember that we once did), I don't think that is anything to brag about nor a good reason to teach other people to never expect anything *real* from God!

I can't say I agree with much of what I hear Crowder and Co. are doing. But some of us aren't really given much of a choice whether we are going to experience God or not, He just kind of forces this stuff upon us! The only choice we have is to either walk the path He places before us, or abandon the thought of walking through life with Him and give in to the fears so many have -- that everything experiential in nature is of the Devil, and only those who serve God purely from their intellect are the ones who are the *True* Christians.

Perhaps in your response here lies an important distinction. What Crowder and the new mystics are promoting is the pursuit of mysticism for the sake of the experience - in other words, chasing after manifestations. If we are faithful with God's Word and walking in His Will for our lives in ministry and entering into prayer and worship faithfully and honestly, we will have some mystical experiences as part and parcel of that walk with the Lord. I'll be worshipping the Lord in song and suddenly see things in a vision form that reveal things of Heaven. I view these experiences as a tremendous blessing and can barely speak of them because they always seem to trigger an overwhelming sense of God's Presence and I just get too emotional to relate the experience very well when I've occasionally decided to share something with someone close to me about it. It does recall Paul's description of his experiences and explains why he doesn't write about them so as not to brag about revelations and experiences . . . where would it end?

The problem I see with where Crowder, Bentley et al are is that they are deliberately pursuing these experiences which then become a form of idolatry. We're not called to pursue experiences. We're called to follow after and obey Jesus Christ. Jesus didn't do around talking about his mystical experiences and imploring people to experience them with him. Just the opposite, he went off on to the mountain side to pray in private. Or when needed, like at the transfiguration, he brought only a few of his inner circle friends to be with him and witness the event to record it for Scripture. But he then didn't go around telling the crowds how he just met with Moses and Elijah so everyone has to follow him and he'll show them how to do it . . . ala Bentley, Bob Jones and Crowder. If we do things pursuing and inviting spiritual experiences for the sake of experience, I will tell you that God doesn't respond to that kind of activity or request, but there are plenty of evil spirits out there ready to accommodate. It's easy for them to appear as angels of light, masquerade as deceased saints to talk to, carry us off in out of body experiences we misinterpret as visions of heaven, etc.

While Crowder and his ilk will quickly point out is how some of these experiences were legitimate things that happened to genuine Christians who completely separated themselves from this world and lived their lives unto God, often cloistering themselves in convents and monasteries and spending their lives in intercessory prayer or ministry to the poor non-stop day and night. They didn't pursue these things, it just happened as they chased after God and His will for their lives. When Crowder comes along and tries to follow after them by snorting lines off of their graves, it's like some carnival version of Christian mysticism - let's see how wacky we can act and excuse it by comparing it to the rare and isolated experiences of serious, sacrificial Christians.

It's important to understand the distinction I've made here. We should never pray to encounter an angel, but it may happen as we operate in our calling to preach, teach, heal, serve, etc. We should never ask God for a visit to Heaven so we can see secret things, but it may happen as we obey His calling to intercede for others, to pray for wisdom to lead His Church, etc. One should never try to be a mystic, it should always be the by-product of our walk and initiated by God Himself. And then our job should be to follow Paul's example, never boast about them or go around teaching others how to force these things to happen, or formulate doctrine around the experience itself understanding that we may not be fully understanding all that we should based on a spiritual experience.

I've encountered more than one pastor who had some of the revival manifestations break out in their church (feathers, dust, gems, etc) - some of which they weren't sure about. These were very spiritually healthy churches that really are quite charismatic and dynamic and always have been - we don't need to be revived when we never died to begin with. Anyway, these pastors were willing to welcome the manifestations if they were of God, so they stopped and prayed, 'God, if this is You, we welcome it, but if not, may it stop here and now'. In each case, these were private prayers, not shared from the pulpit, and the manifestations literally stopped immediately. Some revival groupies, who probably brought the manifestations in with them, left the churches interpreting what happened as God's disapproval. But the Pastors were relieved knowing it was God that it stopped. I believe they saved their churches from this apostate path of chasing after demonic manifestations.

 

[Tobias]

Very good post jamadan, it looks like we might agree on more things than what we disagree on.

The problem I see with where Crowder, Bentley et al are is that they are deliberately pursuing these experiences which then become a form of idolatry. We're not called to pursue experiences. We're called to follow after and obey Jesus Christ.

We ARE called to pursue Christ above all else. But exactly when do other interests turn into idolatry? I'm sure you would agree that it is ok to pursue spiritual gifts, (and especially that you might prophesy), like Paul teaches right? Yet some have turned that into idolatry because they forgot their Saviour and look for the approval of Man. Some seek healing, and leave behind everything else in life including contentment and patience to wait upon the Lord, yet the scriptures do not forbid coming to Jesus for healing.

So where is the scriptural support for what you say? WHY are we not supposed to seek after experiences with the Lord?


Also it has been said that the Holy Spirit is a Gentleman, and will not force Himself upon us. So there is a very fine line between seeking after spiritual experience, and doing the preliminary things like worship and prayer that tend to lead into spiritual encounters. Many under the influence of the spirit of antichrist would teach us that all spiritual encounters are demonic. They teach with the inspiration of the Anti-Holy Spirit spirit, and oppose all who do anything but sit quietly in the pew.

How do you separate yourself from these? Because, we can all take steps to make sure the Holy Spirit doesn't speak to us, show us visions, or do anything with us that is out of the ordinary for stale boring Christianity. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. We don't HAVE to ever have a spiritual experience if we reject Him before anything happens!

If spiritual experience is wrong, then indeed it should be avoided at all costs. However, that is a position you will not find support for in the scriptures! And the cost IMO is to abandon all relationship with God; because that is the only sure way I know of to eliminate all spiritual experience from my life.

I know that's not the position you take. You don't go nearly that far. You seem to say that spiritual experience becomes idolatry the moment we take steps to seek it out. But even so I can't see the line drawn there in the sand, from a scriptural perspective.

Could you clarify?

 

[Simon Peter]

Tobias,

Seeking after experience is usually self-focused, and can easily cause us to ignore discernment.

Do you acknowledge that there are spiritual manifestations in the church that are counterfeit and even demonic?

Is barking like a dog on your hands and knees from God, from Satan, from the flesh?
Is uncontrollable laughing from God or Satan, or is some from God some from Satan?
Is referring to the Holy Spirit (in the context of spiritual experiences) as 'Godka', or 'toking the Holy Ghost', blasphemy?

Can you tell us who you consider are the false teachers and false prophets in today's Christian church? Jesus said there would be many and they'll perform great signs and wonders.

If you acknowledge that we need to exercise discernment in church, then we can discuss how.


peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

Simon,

The way I've found that discernment works for me, is that God will show me whether something is of Him, or the flesh, or of Satan when I am close enough to the situation to see what's going on. And of course, God feels I'm someone who needs to know. But it takes an accurate report of the situation, not one that is twisted to emphasis the speaker's position, or one infused with an unreasonable fear of any manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

So no, I cannot sit in my armchair and tell you from here whether or not animal noises and everything related are demonic. I'm sure some are, and some are from the flesh; but that is not a blanket judgement I'm willing to pass on all of them all the time.


As for distractions at church, do they not all lead into idolatry? What about those who covet ministry positions, and do everything the pastor wants so they can be promoted? IMO they have made their pastor a god and serve him at least part of the time when they should be serving God.

Or what about reading your Bible? Can't that become idolatry too? If we are too busy trying to get through it in a year and reading the required chapters daily, often we miss what God is trying to say to us. If we don't stop and take the time to reflect on what the Holy Spirit is saying, doesn't the Bible become an idol at that very instant?

The solution for avoiding these forms of idolatry is not for everyone to quit reading their Bibles and stop going to church!

If people are falling into idolatry because signs and wonders are taking place in services, the fix is to stop exalting the signs over God. Not to put fear into people's hearts that all manifestations of the Holy Spirit are demonic in nature! Jesus said that "Signs and wonders will follow..." There is no biblical limitation on what those might look like.

 

[Simon Peter]

Simon,

The way I've found that discernment works for me, is that God will show me whether something is of Him, or the flesh, or of Satan when I am close enough to the situation to see what's going on.

How does this process work?

Because just about every Christian says they have discernment. I know a Christian who is possibly the least discerning person I've ever met (example: they were ripped off for a lot of money even after being warned by family members), recently tell me that they have the gift of discernment.

Millions of intelligent 'discerning' Christians, on one side or the other, are cleary dead wrong on this manifestations subject.


peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

How does this process work?

How does healing work? How do tongues work? How about any of the other gifts of the Spirit?

It is a gift from God!


Many think they are healed by God when they are not. Some prophesy and think they are speaking the words of God but are not. Many thousands of preachers teach doctrines they believe are of God but are not. How can anybody tell?

We do the best we can to follow the Bible, use discernment, and watch for the results in the natural world around us. If someone claims to be healed but the doctors say different, then we can see physical evidence that the person was mistaken. If a supposed prophecy does not come true, then it is not scripture that judges the prophetic word, but natural circumstances (because scripture tells us we can use natural circumstances to judge a prophet...)


Every day people read the Bible and interpret it wrong. What is your solution? Quit?



I can testify that it is not my superior intelligence nor my good looks that keeps me safe and walking down the right path. It is only by the Grace of God, who called me and keeps me!

 

[Simon Peter]

What is your solution? Quit?

I have a gift of discernment, and here's how it works:

Sometimes when I walk into a Christian home (less often a church) I sense God's peace, His presence, strongly. It's almost always a surprise. Once I sensed 'torment' in a Christian home, and even that word came to me strongly.

Occasionally, usually when I meet someone new for the first time, I get a sense of how much sin or purity is in their lives; particularly if it's a lot.

But here's the thing, I have NO control over when this happens. And I usually can't know if I'm correct. So on it's own, discernment is not a lot of practical use. I can't and shouldn't use it to make decisions about people.

How does it work with you?

peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

I have a gift of discernment, and here's how it works:

Sometimes when I walk into a Christian home (less often a church) I sense God's peace, His presence, strongly. It's almost always a surprise. Once I sensed 'torment' in a Christian home, and even that word came to me strongly.

Occasionally, usually when I meet someone new for the first time, I get a sense of how much sin or purity is in their lives; particularly if it's a lot.

But here's the thing, I have NO control over when this happens. And I usually can't know if I'm correct. So on it's own, discernment is not a lot of practical use. I can't and shouldn't use it to make decisions about people.

How does it work with you?

peace,
Simon

Oh, pretty much the same I guess.


How is it so much different than trying to discern the will of God from scripture? I mean, if just one person read a passage from the Bible once every several months or years, then they probably wouldn't do much better at knowing the will of God than someone using the gift of discernment.

But if instead we develop a system where more experienced Christians teach the younger ones how to correctly read and understand the Bible; and they do so with integrity and under submission to God, then using scripture can be rather profitable.

Same goes for spiritual discernment. One person on their own is not going to receive a very good grasp of the whole. But the scriptures tell us that two or three prophets should be allowed to speak, while all the rest judge. Why? Because discernment works best when spread out between a number of people!

This is why I oppose one individual that tries to say that the revival in Lakeland was not of God. I don't trust just one person's ability to discern. Not when thousands upon thousands of Christians all discerned previously that the exact same occurrence was indeed of God! What changed?

Integrity (or lack thereof) is a big issue. The tide turned, and many have changed their story. But the fact remains, that hundreds (of the previous thousands) still hold to their story that God visited them in Lakeland, and I really don't think they have enough reason to lie. Not now that it is so unpopular to say so.

We can throw our hands up in despair when it comes to the difficulties of spiritual discernment, just like so many atheists have done with the difficulties of understanding scripture. But I don't think there is another viable option. If we want God, then we have to struggle through the minefield of false teachers of the Bible and unscrupulous people claiming spiritual discernment when they have none.

 

[jamadan]

Oh, pretty much the same I guess.


How is it so much different than trying to discern the will of God from scripture? I mean, if just one person read a passage from the Bible once every several months or years, then they probably wouldn't do much better at knowing the will of God than someone using the gift of discernment.

But if instead we develop a system where more experienced Christians teach the younger ones how to correctly read and understand the Bible; and they do so with integrity and under submission to God, then using scripture can be rather profitable.

Same goes for spiritual discernment. One person on their own is not going to receive a very good grasp of the whole. But the scriptures tell us that two or three prophets should be allowed to speak, while all the rest judge. Why? Because discernment works best when spread out between a number of people!

This is why I oppose one individual that tries to say that the revival in Lakeland was not of God. I don't trust just one person's ability to discern. Not when thousands upon thousands of Christians all discerned previously that the exact same occurrence was indeed of God! What changed?

Integrity (or lack thereof) is a big issue. The tide turned, and many have changed their story. But the fact remains, that hundreds (of the previous thousands) still hold to their story that God visited them in Lakeland, and I really don't think they have enough reason to lie. Not now that it is so unpopular to say so.

We can throw our hands up in despair when it comes to the difficulties of spiritual discernment, just like so many atheists have done with the difficulties of understanding scripture. But I don't think there is another viable option. If we want God, then we have to struggle through the minefield of false teachers of the Bible and unscrupulous people claiming spiritual discernment when they have none.

Do you really think I'm the only person who thinks Lakeland was not of God? Wow, you don't circulate much in Spirit-Fille circles do you? Most leaders I know responded immediately to the event on God TV - they tuned in because they heard about it and sensed something very wrong in their spirit. At that point, most tuned it out and told their people not to go because they didn't believe it was a genuine move of God. Some chaulked it up to starting a hyped "revival" event in Florida being akin to a fire for a bunch of pyromaniacs. But many believed something more spiritually disturbing was occurring there.

Interestingly, a large charismatic conference in my area occurred during the revival and there were a number of well-known charismatic leaders there. Some had just returned from the revival very concerned and had refused to go on stage or let it be known that they were even in Lakeland. And when one of the speakers started to extol the revival and tried to introduce some of the manifestations, the leaders of the conference, very well known figures that we all know stepped up and stopped it instructing those there they did not support that and stopped it . . . it gave me hope that not all in our movement are being seduced by this movement. And I spoke personally to one of the apostolic team that was brought in to evaluate and shepherd the revival midway into it. He said something was wrong from the very beginning and that most inside the revival believed that the opening worship leader (Roy something or other) was genuinely anointed by God and was probably the only redeeming aspect of the whole thing, but that everything changed spiritually in a bad way when Todd or Patricia King took the stage to lead.

I also was informed that Rodney Howard-Browne went there in person to confront Todd about his teachings. He basically rebuked him and told him to stop teaching on angels and start focusing on the Lord. I can't put additional words in Rodney's mouth, but I've got to think he was seriously concerned to go and do something like that.

 

[Simon Peter]

Oh, pretty much the same I guess.

How is it so much different than trying to discern the will of God from scripture?

Well if your gift of discernment works much the same as mine, then we agree that it's rarely useful for determining the validity of a teacher, prophet, ministry or revival.

Slightly better is a 'check' in your spirit. Where you sense - while watching or listening to a teacher/prophet - that something is just not right, but you can't fully explain it or put your finger on it. This is a feeling in your spirit, that all Christians have, so is not the same as the gift of discernment.

Therefore the above are warning signs that are not fully reliable, which is why the scriptures tell us we should look for two things in teachers and church leaders:

1. Good Character
2. Sound Doctrine

We should always look for these two before accepting a teacher/leader as from God. Imagine a church hiring a pastor, for example, that did not look into his character and his doctrine. It's not going to happen.

In the same way, you should not put yourself under a ministry without those two checks.

Whenever I watched Bentley, there was a huge check in my spirit. Which made me look into his doctrine even more carefully. I found some very serious unorthodox beliefs, and later some very serious character issues.


Tobias,

Do you just rely on discernment, and a check in your spirit, or do you look into the more important issues of character and doctrine?



peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

Tobias,

Do you just rely on discernment, and a check in your spirit, or do you look into the more important issues of character and doctrine?



peace,
Simon

What kind of a question is that?


How many times have you heard me ask these people to support their position with SCRIPTURE, when they try to say that "God didn't use TB, John Crowder, etc, etc, because they have sin in their lives." Or "God completely abandoned His people, and allowed a grand spirit of deception act exactly like Him (like Mr. Kudalini, for example), because the leader is in sin and/or his doctrines do not agree with mine."

Spiritual discernment tells me beyond a doubt that the months I spent on my face before God during the Lakeland revival were genuinely inspired by God. Scripture supports this position too, as God can call someone like myself to repentance, and do so through a ministry situation where signs and wonders are present. My wife was personally healed during the revival, so don't try to tell me that all the healings were false.

But spiritual discernment isn't nearly as sure of a thing when I only have limited contact with a situation. Months of God ministering to me daily is much different than one person walking into a building and getting a check in his spirit! Like reading some of Crowder's books. I don't really know what to think of the guy, because that was limited contact, and what he wrote down in a book years ago may be different than what the group practices today.


People operate in the flesh all the time. They judge other ministers (and especially revivals) out of jealousy, through misguided confidence in their own doctrines, and though a hardness of heart toward God. So the problem goes much deeper than just "ministries full of people seeking spiritual experiences." We also have to discern the intentions of the "watchmen" who oppose them, and determine if they are speaking out of inspiration from the wrong spirits, or are in the flesh, or are simply mistaken when it comes to their understanding of the scriptures. Sometimes they simply have fallen prey to the lies passed around by the enemy concerning a movement of God!


Throughout the Bible we see that those who speak on behalf of God tell both the good and the bad parts of the story. They admit to God's servants being human, yet are very careful to point out how God was able to use them anyway. I haven't met a heresy hunter yet who understands how to apply this principle of scripture to those we think God might be using today! And anybody with that flimsy of a grasp on scripture doesn't deserve much of my attention. Sorry. But this is a MAJOR theme of the Bible, and those who cannot figure out how to apply it to their lives today need to quit imagining themselves as Teachers, and sit down to be taught.

 

[Simon Peter]

What kind of a question is that?

The normal kind

How many times have you heard me ask these people to support their position with SCRIPTURE, when they try to say that "God didn't use TB, John Crowder, etc, etc, because they have sin in their lives." Or "God completely abandoned His people, and allowed a grand spirit of deception act exactly like Him (like Mr. Kudalini, for example), because the leader is in sin and/or his doctrines do not agree with mine."

The scriptures constantly warn us to avoid sinful and false teachers.
You’re telling us it doesn’t matter, God uses them anyway.

Jesus warns about false prophets and their use of miracles for grand deception:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
Mark 13:22 NIV

The church is warned to test for false prophets:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1 NIV

Paul lists false brothers as a danger:

I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits… in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
2 Corinthians 11:26 NIV

Example of a false prophet performing miraculous signs:

But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.
Revelation 19:20a NIV

Therefore we can’t assume miracles are a move of the Spirit, and we can’t assume the performer of miracles is a man of God.

Jesus commends church for not tolerating wicked men, and for finding false apostles:

I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
Revelation 2:2 NIV

Throughout the Bible we see that those who speak on behalf of God tell both the good and the bad parts of the story. They admit to God's servants being human, yet are very careful to point out how God was able to use them anyway. I haven't met a heresy hunter yet who understands how to apply this principle of scripture to those we think God might be using today! And anybody with that flimsy of a grasp on scripture doesn't deserve much of my attention. Sorry. But this is a MAJOR theme of the Bible, and those who cannot figure out how to apply it to their lives today need to quit imagining themselves as Teachers, and sit down to be taught.

Here we are told to avoid deceiving teachers, to not let him into your house (not even receive him on your TV?) :

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world…
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
2 John 1:7a,10-11 ESV

Here we are warned about wolves in sheep’s clothing:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-16a ESV

Fruits are not healing, prophecies and miracles.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23 ESV

Bentley, for example, is recognized for his lack of fruit.


peace,
Simon

 

[Blueberrymuffin09]

I think Crowder is way off and weird almost sacreligious. On the other hand all this fear is false this and that....God is bigger than the boogie man.

 

[Tobias]

The normal kind




The scriptures constantly warn us to avoid sinful and false teachers.
You’re telling us it doesn’t matter, God uses them anyway.

Jesus warns about false prophets and their use of miracles for grand deception:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect--if that were possible.
Mark 13:22 NIV

The church is warned to test for false prophets:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1 NIV

Paul lists false brothers as a danger:

I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits… in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers.
2 Corinthians 11:26 NIV

Example of a false prophet performing miraculous signs:

But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf.
Revelation 19:20a NIV

Therefore we can’t assume miracles are a move of the Spirit, and we can’t assume the performer of miracles is a man of God.

Jesus commends church for not tolerating wicked men, and for finding false apostles:

I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false.
Revelation 2:2 NIV





Here we are told to avoid deceiving teachers, to not let him into your house (not even receive him on your TV?) :

7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world…
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.
2 John 1:7a,10-11 ESV

Here we are warned about wolves in sheep’s clothing:

15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits.
Matthew 7:15-16a ESV

Fruits are not healing, prophecies and miracles.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23 ESV

Bentley, for example, is recognized for his lack of fruit.


peace,
Simon

The issue isn't over whether the scriptures are found in the Bible, but in how people apply them. Didn't Satan himself quote scripture to Jesus? The problem was in his re-interpretation of what he said those verses mean.

There is nothing new about quoting verses just to prove your point when you've already made up your mind. We all do it from time to time, I'm sure. But if we take a break, sit back for a minute and consider the whole of scripture, then sometimes our pet doctrines become less important and the bigger picture is seen.

This is where I think I've gone with the judging of preachers over sin. If we cannot explain how God used Samson; and how He kept the "Spirit of Kundilini" from imitating the Holy Spirit and doing works in Samson's ministry, then we have no business supposing that is what is happening with our contemporary ministers' today.

I may not be as intelligent as the writer of Judges, nor as good at spiritual discernment, but I can see from this example in scripture that there is indeed a way to credit the Work of the Lord unto to Him, while acknowledging the sin of His servant. Those who are unable to see this haven't developed their theology far enough past Ceassationalism to be of any practical use to those of us who wish to work hand in hand with a Living God.

The Bible does indeed give us a set of guidelines on how to work with God, we just have to apply ourselves to learning parts of it that the heresy hunters seem to overlook. It takes Faith to walk a Charismatic Christian lifestyle, not Fear.

 

[Simon Peter]

The issue isn't over whether the scriptures are found in the Bible, but in how people apply them.

Well how do you apply the verses I posted, to your life and to the modern church?

But if we take a break, sit back for a minute and consider the whole of scripture...

If we cannot explain how God used Samson; and how He kept the "Spirit of Kundilini" from imitating the Holy Spirit and doing works in Samson's ministry, then we have no business supposing that is what is happening with our contemporary ministers' today.

But you're not considering the whole of scripture.

You can't pick one Old Testament incident where God granted a condemned man's last prayer, and claim that once God has chosen a leader their sin and doctrine no longer matter.

Loads and loads of New Testament scriptures warn us against Church leaders who sin or teach bad doctrine. But you say those scriptures are irrelevent?


peace,
Simon