What is grace?

[Gary K]

Exo 19:6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel was to evangelize the world. See Isaiah 2:3:

... for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

They failed in that until it was taken up by the Apostles. You mentioned the firstborn sons as being priests. That's correct. That is why Aaron was a priest, but more importantly, Melchesidic was a priest. The law that has gone forth from Zion is the same law that was in effect during the time of Melchesidic. See Hebrews 7:11-12.

I didn't explain myself very well. In heaven there will be nobody other than dedicated Christians.

 

[ralliann]

Forgiveness is grace, but that is not always what grace is.

Forgiveness etc is a result of God's umeritted favor.

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[Clare73]

Exo 19:6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel was to evangelize the world. See Isaiah 2:3:

... for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

That is not a command to Israel to evangelize the world.
The cleanliness laws of Leviticus kept the Israelites separated from the Gentiles, the law was the dividing wall of hostility which Christ abolished on the cross with its commandments and regulations (Eph 2:14-15).

They failed in that until it was taken up by the Apostles. You mentioned the firstborn sons as being priests. That's correct. That is why Aaron was a priest, but more importantly, Melchesidic was a priest. The law that has gone forth from Zion is the same law that was in effect during the time of Melchesidic. See Hebrews 7:11-12.

There was no law in effect between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:13-14).
Melchizedek was during the time of Abraham (Heb 7:1), between Adam and Moses.

 

[Clare73]

God ordained all of Israel as priests. But not all Israelites were priests.

Do you have scripture for that? The priests of the family during the time of the patriarchs were the first born.

They were ordained, per the Mosaic covenant, to acknowledge God as their King and, like priests, were to be wholly consecrated to his service (Isa 61:6, 62:12, Dt 7:6, 14:2, 21, 26:19).

 

[Gary K]

Forgiveness is grace, but that is not always what grace is.

In the NT the word translated as grace is from the word charis which I have posted earlier in the thread in all but one instance.

James 1: 10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

[*StrongsGreek*]
02143
εὐπρέπεια euprépeia, yoo-prep'-i-ah
from a compound of 2095 and 4241;
good suitableness, i.e. gracefulness:--grace.

To understand the Bible we must use the Biblical definitions of the words used, not our modern understanding of the words..

 

[Gary K]

Exo 19:6 - And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Israel was to evangelize the world. See Isaiah 2:3:

... for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

They failed in that until it was taken up by the Apostles. You mentioned the firstborn sons as being priests. That's correct. That is why Aaron was a priest, but more importantly, Melchesidic was a priest. The law that has gone forth from Zion is the same law that was in effect during the time of Melchesidic. See Hebrews 7:11-12.

Thank you. I had forgotten about that scripture.

 

[HTacianas]

That is not a command to Israel to evangelize the world.
The cleanliness laws of Leviticus kept the Israelites separated from the Gentiles, the law was the dividing wall of hostility which Christ abolished on the cross with its commandments and regulations (Eph 2:14-15).

There was no law in effect between Adam and Moses (Ro 5:13-14).
Melchizedek was during the time of Abraham (Heb 7:1), between Adam and Moses.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Those are the dietary laws and the prohibition against murder that God gave to Noah. See especially the prohibition against eating blood, and general laws for Gentiles entering the Church in Acts:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

 

[Clare73]

Do you have scripture for that? The priests of the family during the time of the patriarchs were the first born.

In the NT the word translated as grace is from the word charis which I have posted earlier in the thread in all but one instance.
James 1: 10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

[*StrongsGreek*] 02143
εὐπρέπεια euprépeia, yoo-prep'-i-ah
from a compound of 2095 and 4241;
good suitableness, i.e. gracefulness:--grace[/
To understand the Bible we must use the Biblical definitions of the words used, not our modern understanding of the words..

As well as their usage in Scritpure, e.g., Ac 2:47, where it is "favor."

Is your objection to "unmerited?" Are you saying God's favor is merited?

If not, then grace is "God's unmerited favor."

 

[Clare73]

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

Gen 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Those are the dietary laws and the prohibition against murder that God gave to Noah.

I am referring to law in Paul's use of the word in Ro 5:12-14; i.e., a specific code with death penalty attached, as in Eden and the Mosaic law. There was no law in effect between Adam and Moses.

See especially the prohibition against eating blood, and general laws for Gentiles entering the Church in Acts:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

The prohibition in Ac was a temporary concession for the sake of fellowship in the provinces of Syria and Cilicia only, where many of the Christian proselytes there were Jews, who were offended by Gentiles eating meat of strangled animals (still containing blood, which was offensive to the Jews who had been forbidden to eat blood, Ge 9:4, Lev 17:10-12). It was not, and is not, the Christian norm.

 

[HTacianas]

I am referring to Paul's use of law in Ro 5:12-14, i.e., a specific code with death penalty attached, as in Eden and the Mosaic law.

The prohibition in Ac was a temporary concession for the sake of fellowship in the provinces of Syria and Cilicia, where many of the Christian proselytes were Jews, who were offended by Gentiles eating meat of strangled animals (still containing blood, which was offensive to the Jews who had been forbidden to eat blood, Ge 9:4, Lev 17:10-12). It was not, and is not, the Christian norm.

 

[HTacianas]

So you have declared that the prohibition against eating blood has ended? Where do you get that from?

 

[Gary K]

As well as their usage in Scritpure, e.g., Ac 2:47, where it is "favor."

Is your objection to "unmerited?" Are you saying God's favor is merited?

If not, then grace is "God's unmerited favor."

You have some very odd ideas. Where did I object to the word unmerited? I have not.
Grace, in the NT is what the Bible says it is. I don't understand anyone's objections to God's gift of the HS to us. Is it because you don't want to change which acceptance of the influence of the HS on our hearts guarantees?

 

[Clare73]

So you have declared that the prohibition against eating blood has ended? Where do you get that from?

From the abolishment of all those laws in Eph 2:14-15; i.e., food laws, which divided the Jews from the Gentiles, and was the cause of their hostility.

From the temporary concession for the sake of fellowship in the provinces of Sicily and Cilicia, where Antioch was the largest city, and where there were many Jewish proselytes in the area, who were offended by Gentiles eating unstrangled meat (still containing blood) in their gatherings.
That concession was only for Sicily and Cilicia (Ac 15:19-23), it was temporary, and it was not and is not the Christian norm.

From NT apostolic teaching, where "nothing is unclean in itself" (Ro 14:14), and "all food is clean" (Ro 14:20).

 

[Clare73]

You have some very odd ideas. Where did I object to the word unmerited? I have not.

Did you miss the "if" of my statement?

Grace, in the NT is what the Bible says it is. I don't understand anyone's objections to God's gift of the HS to us. Is it because you don't want to change which acceptance of the influence of the HS on our hearts guarantees?

The definition of grace is "favor."

All that is of God's unmerited favor is grace. And I do not disagree that it comes to us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Gary K]

Did you miss the "if" of my statement?

The definition of grace is "favor."

All that is of God's unmerited favor is grace. And I do not disagree that it comes to us by the Holy Spirit.

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

 

[daq]

Saying the HS is a person is taking the thread in a different direction. He is referred to as a person by no less a personage than Jesus.

John 14: 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This is not exactly hard to find.

Even if I had actually answered your unannounced new topic my response to your original OP would not have been controverted.

Matthew 12:27-32 ASV
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.
28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong man, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
30 He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.

Mark 3:28-30 ASV
28 Verily I say unto you, All their sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and their blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 but whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Spirit hath never forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin:
30 because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

Luke 12:8-12 ASV
8 And I say unto you, Every one who shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
9 but he that denieth me in the presence of men shall be denied in the presence of the angels of God.
10 And every one who shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven.
11 And when they bring you before the synagogues, and the rulers, and the authorities, be not anxious how or what ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:
12 for the Holy Spirit shall teach you in that very hour what ye ought to say.

Matthew 10:17-22 ASV
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you;
18 yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you.
21 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

Luke 21:12-17 ASV
12 But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name's sake.
13 It shall turn out unto you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer:
15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay.
16 But ye shall be delivered up even by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

 

[daq]

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

Lol, according to your own new thread rule your post is now off-topic.

 

[Clare73]

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

God's grace = favor

 

[Gary K]

grace = favor

And where is the Biblical evidence for your assertion?

 

[Clare73]

And where is the Biblical evidence for your assertion?

1) In the definition you posted:

[*StrongsGreek*]
05485
χάρις cháris, khar'-ece
from 5463;
graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude):--acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy).

2) Also see:
Ac 7:10 - "gave him favor (charis) and wisdom before Pharaoh"

Ac 14:26 - "from there they sailed to Antioch where they had been commended to the favor (charis) of God for the work which they had fulfilled."