There is no Rapture

[RandyPNW]

Dan 7 talks about the pompous one who is persecuting and prevailing over the saints for a time times and half a time. Now the the gates of hell do not prevail over the church and the 70 weeks of Daniels are clearly set for the city of Jerusalem noted as the Holy City and the Jews noted at Daniels people.

I can't argue this point because it is predicated on belief that Daniel's 70th Week plays a role in this. I don't believe it does. What we are told about Jerusalem, however, is that it will suffer oppression from external pagan peoples until the end of the age, when Christ returns.

The dispensational view has the church gone and the focus back on Israel. Luke one ties this in as well with the prophecy of Zachariah noting that Jesus would be the horn of salvation for the house of Jacob and would keep the covenants, oaths, promises and prophecies to deliver them from their enemies and to enter a time where from then on they would worship and serve the LORD in righteousness and holiness without fear and dwell in safety all their days.

I agree with Dispensationalism in regard to Israel's national restoration and acceptance of Christ at his Coming. I just don't believe this supposed "return to Israel" begins at a Pretrib Rapture.

The Dispensational view has a Secret Rapture of the Church, turning focus back to Israel. And then Israel is refined to accept Christ at his 2nd Coming. I don't believe there is any basis for such a belief except that indeed, Israel will be restored at the 2nd Coming. No Pretrib Rapture.

This is the focus of the tribulation to accomplish this transition. The same with Isaiah 61 where Jesus read half the 1st sentence up until the declaring of the acceptable year of the LORD and he stopped and declared that fulfilled. The rest of the sentence and chapter are all the things accomplished in the day of vengeance of our God. Again this is a clear before and after picture for Zion and support the idea that the 70th week of Daniel is focused on the outcome for Daniels people and Zion.

Again, I don't believe the 70th Week of Daniel plays a role in this. I used to believe that, but no longer. It was, I believe, fulfilled at Christ's 1st Coming, followed by the beginning of a long age of Jewish Punishment. This long age of Jewish Punishment is, I believe, the "Great Tribulation" spoken of by Jesus. It is not the Reign of Antichrist, as is often thought.

Obviously, the Jewish Punishment of the present age, the "Jewish Diaspora," will not end until the 2nd Coming. So during Antichrist's Reign, this Jewish Punishment will continue, until Israel is purged of those opposing the Coming of Christ.

The many who convert post rapture will be the ones who's souls are under the altar crying out for justice and the that number will be completed. The rapture has the saints meeting the dead in Christ in the air called to Jesus and the distinction of this is Jesus is coming for the bride and not coming in vengeance. The contrast to him coming to tread the winepress of the wrath of God is when He comes from Bozrah and all His garments are stained in blood and in that day His feet will touch the Mount of Olives which will split in two and then He will be king over all the earth.

I see no distinction in Scriptures between Jesus' Coming in Vengeance and his Coming to deliver his Church. So I'm not going to "read these distinctions into" the various passages, when they are not explicitly there.

The promise to keep the church of Philedelphia from the hour that is coming to test all those who dwell on the earth is linked to the prayer Jesus told us to pray that we would be counted worthy to escape these things that are coming upon the whole earth and to be standing before the son of man.

I've heard this argument for many years, and I find it a very poor argument in some respects. At best, this proves that at times God wishes Christians to escape judgments meant only for unbelievers. This was true in 70 AD and this was true with the Christians at Philadelphia.

But the only escape Christians are assured they will escape from is the judgment of Hell. We are specifically told we are not guaranteed an escape from tribulation in the world. And there have been many martyrs who have died in tribulation, and did not escape.

There have also been many Christian casualties in natural disasters and wars caused by unbelievers. But we live in the same world with unbelievers, and share in their suffering, much as Christ shared in the suffering brought on in the world by sinful Man.

The church is not mentioned in Rev after chapter 3 and I do agree with you the 144K are not evangelists as many say but the gospel is said to be proclaimed at that time by Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people—
I think the church is gone and those beheaded are tribulation saints and not the church.

For one thing, I do not assume the 70th Week of Daniel is involved--no 7 year period--only a short 3.5 year period. And that is very, very short! No time for evangelism, and who can work when the "night" has come?

The evangelism brought by angels are different from human missionary activity, and largely has to do with God speaking to the human conscience generally. It is a warning to consciences of men that judgment is coming against their choice to commit terrible evils.

I am aware of what signs would prove this view wrong and am committed to stand in Christ no matter what. I appreciate your invitation to share my views and hope we enjoy the same application to be laboring for the kingdom.

Of course, future prophecy isn't really for speculation, but neither is there anything wrong with speculating about it. The more we focus on future prophecy, the more we will pay attention to its lessons. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Dale]

The Body of Christ will be raptured into Heaven.

The meek in that verse refers to the nation of Israel who will inherit the Earth, as promised to their father Abraham.

You are expressing the Dispensationalist view that God has one plan for Christians and another for Jews. This seems to set up a two-tiered scheme of salvation. There is no such thing in the Bible.

In the Parables of Christ, there are only those who go to heaven and those who are cast out. There are only two destinies possible for each soul, there is no third possibility.

 

[Dale]

Why would Christians go through the trib. We are not appointed to wrath’. Romans 5:9. 1Thessalonians 1:10. 1Thessalonians 5:9

Unqualified,

Hello, since I don’t believe I have met you on CF before.
You mention three verses where Paul says that Christians are not appointed to wrath.
What did Christians think these verses meant before Dispensationalism was invented around 1830?

I’ll use the commentary of the famous historical commentator John Gill.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much
more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
--Romans 5:9 NIV

“...not from wrath, as a corruption in their own hearts, which oftentimes breaks forth; nor as appearing among the people of God one towards another, which is sometimes very bitter; or as in their avowed enemies, the effects of which they often feel; nor from the wrath of devils, which is as the roaring of a lion; but from the wrath of God, from a sense and apprehension of it in their own consciences, which the law works; from which justification by the blood of Christ frees them;”
-From John Gill’s Commentary on Romans 5:9

Gill concludes that Christians are free from the wrath of God but he makes it clear that Christians are subject to “the wrath of devils.” Persecution is part of the “wrath of devils,” so Christians can experience persecution in this world.

… and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from
the dead — Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
– I Thessalonians 1:10 NIV

“… even from all punishment in this life, for there is
no wrath mixed with any of their mercies or their chastisements; and from all punishment in the world to come, which will fall heavy on others;”
--From John Gill’s Commentary on I Thessalonians 1:10

Here Gill concludes that “Jesus … rescues us from the coming wrath” means that Jesus rescues Christians from Hell. This isn’t the only meaning but it is certainly an important one.

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive
salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
--I Thessalonians 5:9 NIV


“… there are others who are equally children of wrath, as deserving of
the wrath of God in themselves as others, who are not appointed to it; which is an instance of wonderful and distinguishing grace to them:”
--From John Gills Commentary on I Thessalonians 5:9

Gill’s commentary here is more general. Gill sees wrath as the result of sin, the result of wrongdoing and rebellion against God. He never connects Paul’s use of “wrath” as having anything to do with a particular period of tribulation.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

I can't argue this point because it is predicated on belief that Daniel's 70th Week plays a role in this. I don't believe it does. What we are told about Jerusalem, however, is that it will suffer oppression from external pagan peoples until the end of the age, when Christ returns.



I agree with Dispensationalism in regard to Israel's national restoration and acceptance of Christ at his Coming. I just don't believe this supposed "return to Israel" begins at a Pretrib Rapture.

The Dispensational view has a Secret Rapture of the Church, turning focus back to Israel. And then Israel is refined to accept Christ at his 2nd Coming. I don't believe there is any basis for such a belief except that indeed, Israel will be restored at the 2nd Coming. No Pretrib Rapture.



Again, I don't believe the 70th Week of Daniel plays a role in this. I used to believe that, but no longer. It was, I believe, fulfilled at Christ's 1st Coming, followed by the beginning of a long age of Jewish Punishment. This long age of Jewish Punishment is, I believe, the "Great Tribulation" spoken of by Jesus. It is not the Reign of Antichrist, as is often thought.

Obviously, the Jewish Punishment of the present age, the "Jewish Diaspora," will not end until the 2nd Coming. So during Antichrist's Reign, this Jewish Punishment will continue, until Israel is purged of those opposing the Coming of Christ.



I see no distinction in Scriptures between Jesus' Coming in Vengeance and his Coming to deliver his Church. So I'm not going to "read these distinctions into" the various passages, when they are not explicitly there.



I've heard this argument for many years, and I find it a very poor argument in some respects. At best, this proves that at times God wishes Christians to escape judgments meant only for unbelievers. This was true in 70 AD and this was true with the Christians at Philadelphia.

But the only escape Christians are assured they will escape from is the judgment of Hell. We are specifically told we are not guaranteed an escape from tribulation in the world. And there have been many martyrs who have died in tribulation, and did not escape.

There have also been many Christian casualties in natural disasters and wars caused by unbelievers. But we live in the same world with unbelievers, and share in their suffering, much as Christ shared in the suffering brought on in the world by sinful Man.



For one thing, I do not assume the 70th Week of Daniel is involved--no 7 year period--only a short 3.5 year period. And that is very, very short! No time for evangelism, and who can work when the "night" has come?

The evangelism brought by angels are different from human missionary activity, and largely has to do with God speaking to the human conscience generally. It is a warning to consciences of men that judgment is coming against their choice to commit terrible evils.



Of course, future prophecy isn't really for speculation, but neither is there anything wrong with speculating about it. The more we focus on future prophecy, the more we will pay attention to its lessons. Thanks for sharing!

thank you for in depth answer and addressing point by point my presentation. It is refreshing to see someone take the time to read and respond in a way showing they listened and understood the points that are on the table and you maintained a respectful tone stating your views.

We will have to do disagree on some points and one area I did address was using Luke one to me which states that Jesus is the horn of salvation for the House of Jacob and the deliverer the one who keeps the covenants, oaths prophecies and promises to national Israel. Now in Dan 70 weeks the objectives are clearly for the Holy City and Daniels people so when you consider these fulfilled in 70 AD I see a contradiction. Here are the 6 objectives
“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

the transgression is Israel rejecting the messiah which is exactly why Jesus predicted the destruction of the temple and the city Jerusalem.

The end of sins is seen in Luke one where after being delivered from their enemies they are now worshiping and serving the LORD in both holiness and righteousness, their sin and rebellion are now over.

to make reconciliation for iniquity; Joel 3 of the last days

But Judah shall abide forever,
And Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted;
For the LORD dwells in Zion.”

Hosea 1
In the place where it was said to them,
‘You are not My people,’[fn]
There it shall be said to them,
‘You are sons of the living God.’
11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel! This is the reconciliation of Israel to the LORD

To bring in everlasting righteousness. This is a key one as in 70 AD this is in no way established as it will be at the onset of the 2nd coming and the scope of these objectives is Daniels people and the holy city Jerusalem.
6 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

Isaiah 1
Therefore the Lord says,
The LORD of hosts, the Mighty One of Israel,
“Ah, I will rid Myself of My adversaries,
And take vengeance on My enemies.
25 I will turn My hand against you,
And thoroughly purge away your dross,
And take away all your alloy.
26 I will restore your judges as at the first,
And your counselors as at the beginning.
Afterward you shall be called the city of righteousness, the faithful city.”
27 Zion shall be redeemed with justice,
And her penitents with righteousness.
28 The destruction of transgressors and of sinners shall be together,
And those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed.

seal up the vision and prophecy.

but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


And to anoint the Most Holy.


Jesus was anointed for burial in the gospels but this anointing is talking about being king like when Samuel anointed Saul then David. In Zech 14 the LORD comes with all his saints
And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”[fn]
And His name one.

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms[fn] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”


Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel
Shall be gathered together,
And appoint for themselves one head;
And they shall come up out of the land,
For great will be the day of Jezreel!

Isa 9:7

Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

The tribulation is also known as the time of Jacobs trouble and he will be saved out of it. Taking the objectives and focusing them upon Daniels people and the Holy city instead of Jesus brining in the new covenant is key. Jerusalem was destroyed and so were Daniels people in 70 AD and the accomplishment of them being saved is the focus of the tribulation and Daniels 70 weeks. I am out of time or I would go on. have a blessed day

 

[DavidPT]

Why would Christians go through the trib. We are not appointed to wrath’. Romans 5:9. 1Thessalonians 1:10. 1Thessalonians 5:9

The wrath that Christians are not appointed to go through is God's wrath. What does that have to do with the great tribulation? Great tribulation is not God'swrath. God's wrath follows that, not occurs during it instead. The following, for one, undeniably proves it.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

It's impossible to miss the fact that verse 17 says---For the great day of his wrath is come. Obviously, the great day of His wrath did not not already come at a prior time if it doesn't even come until the time involving the sun going dark, the stars of heaven falling unto the earth, etc.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


This part---the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven--is undeniably referring to the 6th seal events recorded in Revelation 6. Where does verse 29 undeniably place the 6th seal events, the time of God's wrath? Before great tribulation begins? During great trib? Or exactly what the text plainly indicates---Immediately after the tribulation?

 

[keras]

Here Gill concludes that “Jesus … rescues us from the coming wrath” means that Jesus rescues Christians from Hell.

That the Lord can and will literally save and protect His faithful people, is demonstrated by how He protected the three men in the furnace. Daniel 3:24-27
When the next Prophesied event happens, Revelation 6:12-17, we are told to- Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved'. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13

There will be no 'rapture removal' for anyone. The Lord will protect His people, thru it all.
Proved by prophesies like Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, 1 Corinthians 10:13, 2 Peter 2:9

 

[keras]

This part---the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven--is undeniably referring to the 6th seal events recorded in Revelation 6. Where does verse 29 undeniably place the 6th seal events, the time of God's wrath? Before great tribulation begins? During great trib? Or exactly what the text plainly indicates---Immediately after the tribulation?

There will be two times the sun will be darkened.
First at the Sixth Seal, when the moon will shine bright red. Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12
Second; at the Return, when all the cosmic lights will be darkened. Matthew 24:29

It should be plain to all that the Sixth Seal will be the next Prophesied event. The time the Lord will destroy the attackers against Israel, best described in Psalms 83:1-18 & Micah 4:11-12

 

[keras]

At the end of the 1260 days of Antichrist's Reign we are told the 2 Witnesses are killed, and lay in the street for 3.5 days. This now brings us to 1264 days before Christ can return.

Confusion!
The world control by the Anti-Christ, extends to the end of the 1260 days from the Temple desecration.
Therefore the 2W's are killed at day 1256.5 and 3.5 days later Jesus will Return and call them up to Him, along with all the dead GT martyrs. They will go with Jesus to Jerusalem, where they will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 20:4-6
The lying dead in the street of the 2W, IS part of their Witness, Revelation 11:3

THEN, Jesus will kill all the ungodly peoples and chain up Satan. Revelation 19:17-21

 

[keras]

There is a rapture, because that is how those alive (in Christ) at the 6th Seal are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, as Jesus is descending as King to the Mount of Olives.

There will be a 'catching up', as 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 tell us. But it isn't to heaven, as many like to think. Just a transportation to Jerusalem.

Thinking the Sixth Seal is at the Return, is totally wrong. How can the Scroll be unrolled before all the Seals are opened?

 

[DavidPT]

There will be a 'catching up', as 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 tell us. But it isn't to heaven, as many like to think. Just a transportation to Jerusalem.

Thinking the Sixth Seal is at the Return, is totally wrong. How can the Scroll be unrolled before all the Seals are opened?

The 6th seal eventually involves the 2nd coming, that is my view. The 2nd coming is meaning verse 30 in Matthew 24, and that that chapter records that the 2nd coming occurs sometime during the 6th seal.

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth(Revelation 6:13)

Whatever that might look like, I find it unreasonable that the following is not meaning that same event, but is meaning an entirely different event that occurs at a different time---and the stars shall fall from heaven(Matthew 24:29)

IOW, instead of interpreting Scripture with Scripture whenever possible, let's just throw that concept out the window altogether when it comes to these 2 accounts. Let's just call this a coincidence that 2 accounts are involving falling stars, maybe that explains it then, rather than assuming Scripture interpreting Scripture might explain it. 2 accounts are involving great tribulation first, followed by God's wrath, so let's just call that a coincidence too, rather than assuming Scripture interpreting Scripture might explain it as well.

Matthew 24:21 equals great tribultion first.
Matthew 24:29 equals God's wrath following great tribulation.

a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11) equals great tribultion first.
Revelation 6:12-17 equals God's wrath following great tribulation.

Why do some interpreters want to contradict these passages above by insisting God's wrath is during great tribulation, rather than after it? I know why Preterists and Pretribbers need to do it, but why does anyone that is not either one also need to do it?

 

[Unqualified]

Unqualified,

Hello, since I don’t believe I have met you on CF before.
You mention three verses where Paul says that Christians are not appointed to wrath.
What did Christians think these verses meant before Dispensationalism was invented around 1830?

I’ll use the commentary of the famous historical commentator John Gill.

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much
more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
--Romans 5:9 NIV

“...not from wrath, as a corruption in their own hearts, which oftentimes breaks forth; nor as appearing among the people of God one towards another, which is sometimes very bitter; or as in their avowed enemies, the effects of which they often feel; nor from the wrath of devils, which is as the roaring of a lion; but from the wrath of God, from a sense and apprehension of it in their own consciences, which the law works; from which justification by the blood of Christ frees them;”
-From John Gill’s Commentary on Romans 5:9

Gill concludes that Christians are free from the wrath of God but he makes it clear that Christians are subject to “the wrath of devils.” Persecution is part of the “wrath of devils,” so Christians can experience persecution in this world.

… and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from
the dead — Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
– I Thessalonians 1:10 NIV

“… even from all punishment in this life, for there is
no wrath mixed with any of their mercies or their chastisements; and from all punishment in the world to come, which will fall heavy on others;”
--From John Gill’s Commentary on I Thessalonians 1:10

Here Gill concludes that “Jesus … rescues us from the coming wrath” means that Jesus rescues Christians from Hell. This isn’t the only meaning but it is certainly an important one.

For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive
salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
--I Thessalonians 5:9 NIV


“… there are others who are equally children of wrath, as deserving of
the wrath of God in themselves as others, who are not appointed to it; which is an instance of wonderful and distinguishing grace to them:”
--From John Gills Commentary on I Thessalonians 5:9

Gill’s commentary here is more general. Gill sees wrath as the result of sin, the result of wrongdoing and rebellion against God. He never connects Paul’s use of “wrath” as having anything to do with a particular period of tribulation.

But doesn’t Gill ever mention Revelation?

 

[RandyPNW]

Confusion!
The world control by the Anti-Christ, extends to the end of the 1260 days from the Temple desecration.
Therefore the 2W's are killed at day 1256.5 and 3.5 days later Jesus will Return and call them up to Him, along with all the dead GT martyrs. They will go with Jesus to Jerusalem, where they will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 20:4-6
The lying dead in the street of the 2W, IS part of their Witness, Revelation 11:3

THEN, Jesus will kill all the ungodly peoples and chain up Satan. Revelation 19:17-21

I'm not confused. The 3 witnesses minister for the *entire 3.5 years,* the entire *1260 days.* They cannot be killed until after they've finished their testimony on the 1261st day!

 

[RandyPNW]

Now in Dan 70 weeks the objectives are clearly for the Holy City and Daniels people so when you consider these fulfilled in 70 AD I see a contradiction. Here are the 6 objectives
“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

We do see this somewhat differently. I see these 6 things as fulfilled at Jesus' 1st Coming, and you see them as a mix of both 1st and 2nd Comings. You have to decide for yourself.

"to finish the transgression": Israel's OT sins were completed with the rejection of Christ.
"to make an end of sins" is to judge Israel in 70 AD, removing them from polluting their land.
"to make reconciliation for iniquity" refers to Christ's atonement for Israel's sins
"to bring in everlasting righteousness" refers to Christ's own righteousness
"to seal up vision and prophecy" refers to the completion of prophecy concerning Christ's work of atonement
"to anoint the most holy" refers to the dedication of Christ as Redeemer

The backdrop to this prophecy is the impending restoration of Jerusalem and the temple, which Daniel had yet to see happen. Daniel is told that this Messianic mission will be completed, following the restoration of Jerusalem, and then he would be "cut off," terminating OT sacrifice. Finally, the "ruler of the people to come," ie the Roman Army, would destroy Jerusalem and the temple again. This Army would constitute the "Abomination of Desolation."

That's the extent of the prophecy. And Jesus made reference to it in his Olivet Discourse. In Luke 21 Jerusalem is surrounded by an Army to destroy that city and the temple. The result would be an age-long Punishment for the Jewish People. Christ would come at the end of this age of "Great Tribulation."

 

[keras]

I'm not confused. The 3 witnesses minister for the *entire 3.5 years,* the entire *1260 days.* They cannot be killed until after they've finished their testimony on the 1261st day!

So their lying dead and then miraculously resurrecting, is not part of their testimony?
What is it then, just their idea of a teddy bears picnic?
Judging from the response; Revelation 11:13, it will be their most effective testimony!

The 6th seal eventually involves the 2nd coming, that is my view.

Your view, then; involves a reshuffle of the Book of Revelation. Not advisable!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

hi since these events are still future you have a right to your opinion but until it is fact you have to hold on to your declaration of being right. I am a futurist and believe in the rapture of the church. Now those who are beheaded in the tribulation for their testimony of Jesus very well could be a category of saints who turn to Jesus when the tribulation has begun after a rapture of the church would have already happened.

No. Jesus does not come back until "After" the beast is revealed, and the whole church goes through the tribulation.

2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

 

[Guojing]

You are expressing the Dispensationalist view that God has one plan for Christians and another for Jews. This seems to set up a two-tiered scheme of salvation. There is no such thing in the Bible.

In the Parables of Christ, there are only those who go to heaven and those who are cast out. There are only two destinies possible for each soul, there is no third possibility.

You were asking a question about Matthew 5:5 and I was answering it.

Don't see it as Christians and Jews, see it as the Body of Christ and Israel.

 

[RandyPNW]

So their lying dead and then miraculously resurrecting, is not part of their testimony?
What is it then, just their idea of a teddy bears picnic?

Being silly doesn't make the point stronger for you. No, being dead in the street is *not* part of their testimony. Their testimony was, as given, to be a torment to the world by witnessing to the truths of God. They don't do that when they're dead.

Rev 11.3 they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[keras]

Being silly doesn't make the point stronger for you. No, being dead in the street is *not* part of their testimony. Their testimony was, as given, to be a torment to the world by witnessing to the truths of God. They don't do that when they're dead.

Rev 11.3 they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.

But when they stand up again, their testimony is confirmed and vindicated!

The Two Witnesses commence their witness of the coming Kingdon of Jesus, when the leader of the One World Govt conquers the holy people and violates the new Temple. At the exact mid point of the final 7 years before Jesus Returns.
He then has world control for the next 42 months, for exactly 1260 days. Revelation 13:5-8
Who do they witness to? The ungodly peoples, who worship the 'beast'. The 'Gentiles', referred to in Revelation 11:2

When Jesus Returns, on day 1261, He brings back to life all the martyrs killed by that leader, by then known as the Anti-Christ 'beast', 2 of which are the Two Witnesses.

This issue is really not of great concern for us, but for me to see how you; a serious scholar and seemingly determined to get to the truth of Bible prophecy, making almost desperate attempts to make what we are told mean something else, then I have to realize that what Jesus said in Matthew 11:25-26, must apply.
It is really too hard to say: maybe what the Prophets actually say is right?

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

No. Jesus does not come back until "After" the beast is revealed, and the whole church goes through the tribulation.

2Th 2:1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Hi the coming of Christ in the air to gather the church and the dead in Christ is not his return to the earth it is our going to Him. I agree that the 2nd coming is as you stated.

 

[Timtofly]

There will be a 'catching up', as 1 Thess 4:17 and Matthew 24:31 tell us. But it isn't to heaven, as many like to think. Just a transportation to Jerusalem.

Thinking the Sixth Seal is at the Return, is totally wrong. How can the Scroll be unrolled before all the Seals are opened?

Nothing in the 6th Seal states the scroll is unrolled. Where is that coming from? Why are you putting tens of billions of humans into Jerusalem at the 6th Seal? Oh, wait, you are post mill in your church being glorified. You don't accept the church is glorified until the GWT. Where did Paul teach the church is glorified 1,000 years after the Second Coming? Where did Paul teach being glorified is separate from the Second Coming? The rapture and Second Coming is the same event, the 5th and 6th Seals. You and I are souls under the alter. We are covered under the Atonement of the Cross. Not sure why you deny being a soul covered by the blood of the Lamb, and named in the Lamb's book of life.