The Origin of Christianity (I report, You decide) ?

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dollar

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First of all, do you have a source for this that isn't one of the ridiculously researched ones that you've been peddling here? Second, others have addressed whether it makes sense to equate sun with son. Third, others have addressed that Jesus was not crucified or resurrected on December 25. So I guess it has been responded to enough to match the level of evidence you have seen fit to supply us with.
Is wikipedia a credible source!?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_solstice

Sun gets to its most southern point around winter solstice, stays at its most southern point for about 3 days, then starts to raise north.
vs
Ancients noticed the Sun moves south during winter, gets to a point where the sun stops moving south but also didn't move back north either for 3 days. They said the sun died for 3 days. When the Sun started moving north agian they said it ressurected from the dead. This "ressurection" of the sun after it "died" for 3 days happend on December 25th. They said the Sun was the salvation of the world because it was risen. The Sun is on the cross of the zodiac.
vs
Jesus died on the cross, was entombed for 3 days, then ressurected.

Now tell me, why does this parallel the story of the passion?
 
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nutroll

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Wikipedia is not generally considered a credible source, but even still, only one group of "ancients" is said to have believed that the sun "died" and "resurrected" according to that article, and it was the Western Slavs who would have had no bearing on the formation of the Biblical texts. Where is your evidence that the people who wrote the NT thought the sun died and then resurrected?

And again, your line of reasoning assumes that the only possible reason that Jesus could have spent 3 days in the tomb is because it is parallel. Now first of all, Jesus died late in the day, spent one full day in the tomb, and then rose on the 3rd day, he didn't spend 3 full days in a tomb, so it isn't really even as parallel as you are claiming. What if Jesus was a real person who really died, and rose from the dead on the third day? What would it matter if it paralleled anything? It only matters if it is a made up story to begin with.
 
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dollar

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We believe in one God. That was just a shorthand way of saying the actual God/ the thing you think is God but is a distortion of God. You know, the way you have been talking, but just flipped around. The thing that you point out in your very next sentence.
My God is still free of human influence which tends to always distort the true meaning of God.

By picking and choosing what you will believe from all the different religions, you are worshiping yourself. You are making a God in your own image, based on what you think God should be, and then worshiping that. Besides, I thought your God had nothing to do with society. But wait a minute. How many of the world religions believe that God is nature? Not a whole lot. So you don't really worship the God of all religions, you just think that all religions are faulty because they go beyond what you want to believe.
I do not worship myself. I don't know how you get this out of reading what I typed. Your religion makes God in your image, I don't believe the popular belief that God made us literally in his image. I believe he made us in his consciousness. Agian things written in the Bible are being taken way to literal. God is what God is, society has their own agenda which moves us away from God. I don't worship God, I honor him for being so great and giving me this gift of life. My God has nothing to do with society. No not a lot think that God is nature but it is what everyone in the end will return to after we die which makes my God the same God as all the religions of the world. You just think my belief is faulty because it goes beyond what you want to believe.

We don't call anything we don't understand one of 'God's mysteries.' What God has not revealed to us, He has not revealed to us. We don't make up what we think God is or isn't, that would be another forum, not TAW. There might be other religions that "fill voids" but not Orthodoxy. I don't know what you are trying to say about science advancing less and less. Again, your a priori assumption is that all religions are equal and that if one religion is barking up the tree that all must be.
You follow the Bible, its a void filler written by the hands of men. When did I say science advanced less and less? I said the more science advances the less things religion has to say is shall we say, a miracle. My belief is not a priori because it requires no prior knowledge, just life. Society often times barks up the wrong tree, Religion was created by society by barking up the wrong tree, therefore religion is barking up the wrong tree.


I think that science can help us understand the universe around us, and that insofar as this universe was created by God, it can tell us some things about the Creator of the World. I don't, however, agree with you that God is nature, so I think the knowledge of God that it brings is indirect rather than direct knowledge of God.
Very well, but I still say God is everything that is life and this universe is alive.

Your contention that you can't take parts of the Bible literally and part of it symbolically is wrong. Though there are not passages that say that the following section is an allegory, there are sometimes indications within the text as to what was intended. As Orthodox, we also have the combined wisdom of the Church Fathers to help us understand what was intended in any given passage. The Bible is not a text book, nor is it a work of fiction. It was written by men who wrote in the style of their times. Sometimes this was heavily influenced by symbolism, other times not so much. The Bible also does not read as a continuous story. Your assertion that it does shows that you have not read it. There are many great teachings in the Bible if you take it literally as well.
Haven't you noticed men who wrote in that time often always used symbolic language and never ment it to be taken literal.
Its called mythology. They use natural phenomenon and personify these phenomenon with names and add moral stories to them.


Do you really think that most Christians think the story of Adam and Eve is a story about some snake causing problems for people by way of an apple? We all understand what we can learn from that story. We don't need you to tell us what it means. Just because one believes that a story is literally true does not mean that it loses all of its symbolic meanings as well.
When you take it literal you miss the fact that the conflict is internal not external. You think when the Bible tells us to control a snake it literally means that?
It means take hold of your emotions and thoughts, don't let them get the better of you. You completely miss this if you read it literal.

The Crusades has nothing to do with taking the Bible literally, but even if it does, that has nothing to do with the Orthodox Church. The only way that we were involved in the Crusades was by having Constantinople sacked. Again, you are assuming that a literalistic reading of the Bible (which is not what our Church does) precludes any meaning beyond the surface level. This is a false assumption.
If your Church does not teach a literalistic version of the Bible then it would be correct for me to say that you don't believe a man named Jesus ever walked on this Earth, no?
 
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dollar

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Wikipedia is not generally considered a credible source, but even still, only one group of "ancients" is said to have believed that the sun "died" and "resurrected" according to that article, and it was the Western Slavs who would have had no bearing on the formation of the Biblical texts. Where is your evidence that the people who wrote the NT thought the sun died and then resurrected?
Do not deny the fact that this occurrence with the sun was visible to the writers of the Bible. You'll be suprised how many writtings are actually derived from humans observance of natural phenomenon. Agian its called mythology. Natural phenomenon personified, given names and roles in a moral symbolic story.

And again, your line of reasoning assumes that the only possible reason that Jesus could have spent 3 days in the tomb is because it is parallel. Now first of all, Jesus died late in the day, spent one full day in the tomb, and then rose on the 3rd day, he didn't spend 3 full days in a tomb, so it isn't really even as parallel as you are claiming. What if Jesus was a real person who really died, and rose from the dead on the third day? What would it matter if it paralleled anything? It only matters if it is a made up story to begin with.
You just told me in your other post that your church takes everything symbolic so I can basicly say without fault that you don't believe a man named Jesus ever walked the Earth.
Agian the story of the sun and of Jesus parallels each other too much to be "Oh it just happend that way" type of stuff.
Same with the 12 Disciples and 12 zodiac signs which the Bible explicietly mentions with the word Mazzaroth.
Also with all the fish symbolism and text in Christianity. This simply did not happen by accident about the fish stuff. Jesus was born at the beginning of the Age of Pisces (the fish).
Pisces also rules the feet which just may explain all the feet anointing Jesus got in the Bible.
The sign oppisite pisces is Virgo (The Virgin) hmmm... Born of a Virgin...

Look at this!!! This is the description of a piscen from an astrolgy web site:
Imaginative and sensitive
Compassionate and kind
Selfless and unworldly
Intuitive and sympathetic

Sounds an awful lot like Jesus huh?
 
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nutroll

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My God is still free of human influence which tends to always distort the true meaning of God.

No it isn't unless you are not human.

I do not worship myself. I don't know how you get this out of reading what I typed. Your religion makes God in your image,
My religion does not make God in humanity's image. God is God, and my religion preserves the truth about God. By assembling your own beliefs about God from various sources, that God will necessarily conform to what you believe. Therefore, you are making God in your image. You may not see it, but you are doing just that.

I don't worship God, I honor him for being so great and giving me this gift of life.

That's interesting because you said "I worship the God of all religions..."

My God has nothing to do with society. No not a lot think that God is nature but it is what everyone in the end will return to after we die which makes my God the same God as all the religions of the world. You just think my belief is faulty because it goes beyond what you want to believe.

You can't claim that your God has nothing to do with society unless you were raised in a cave with no outside influence. I believe your belief is faulty because it makes no sense whatsoever. It is based on fallacies, and illogical assumptions. The fact that it goes beyond what I believe is incidental.

You follow the Bible, its a void filler written by the hands of men.

I disagree. Although the Bible was written by men, I believe it was written by men who had seen and heard the truth. I believe that what they have written is more than just a bunch of made up stories.

When did I say science advanced less and less?

"Notice as science advances less and less things religion has to jump on and say its God." -- You. I think some punctuation and grammar may need to be adjusted as that sentence made no sense to me, and still doesn't


I said the more science advances the less things religion has to say is shall we say, a miracle.

I don't care if what might be considered a miracle can be scientifically explained. That does not mean there are no miracles.

My belief is not a priori because it requires no prior knowledge, just life. Society often times barks up the wrong tree, Religion was created by society by barking up the wrong tree, therefore religion is barking up the wrong tree.
I guarantee you that you have made a priori assumptions, assumptions that are necessary to your argument, you just don't see them. Every single person reading what you write can see them, but you can't. You are the one barking up the wrong tree.


Very well, but I still say God is everything that is life and this universe is alive.

I believe that God is the source of all life, but all living things are not God.

Haven't you noticed men who wrote in that time often always used symbolic language and never ment it to be taken literal.
Its called mythology.
often always? what does that mean? men in Biblical times used symbolism because it says more than mere words can. But they also wrote things that are literal.
They use natural phenomenon and personify these phenomenon with names and add moral stories to them.
That is what you are claiming, but again, I believe you are wrong, and you have not supported your case.




When you take it literal you miss the fact that the conflict is internal not external. You think when the Bible tells us to control a snake it literally means that?
It means take hold of your emotions and thoughts, don't let them get the better of you. You completely miss this if you read it literal.
Where does the Bible tell us to control a snake? You are obviously not aware of what is and isn't in the Bible, nor do you know anything about Orthodox Theology. We dwell at great length on the symbolic meaning of stories. Your assertion is patently false. Perhaps if you educated yourself on what we actually believe you would at least stop making the same incorrect statements.


If your Church does not teach a literalistic version of the Bible then it would be correct for me to say that you don't believe a man named Jesus ever walked on this Earth, no?
Wrong. It is a historical fact that a man named Jesus did walk the earth. We know what is symbolic and what is history. The Church which wrote the Bible has passed this information along to the present day.
 
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nutroll

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Do not deny the fact that this occurrence with the sun was visible to the writers of the Bible.

I did no such thing, but your argument contends that those people saw that event as a death and resurrection of the sun. They did not.

You'll be suprised how many writtings are actually derived from humans observance of natural phenomenon. Agian its called mythology. Natural phenomenon personified, given names and roles in a moral symbolic story.
Would I really be surprised? I am aware that many cultures built beliefs around astronomical occurrences and natural phenomena. That does not mean that the Bible is a personification of such things. That kind of contention would have to be supported by fact, not conjecture.


You just told me in your other post that your church takes everything symbolic so I can basicly say without fault that you don't believe a man named Jesus ever walked the Earth.
I said no such thing. And it shows how seriously you take research that you would think that. What I said was that there are symbolic parts to the Bible and there are literal parts.

Agian the story of the sun and of Jesus parallels each other too much to be "Oh it just happend that way" type of stuff.
No it doesn't. Just because you are suckered in by a couple poorly researched little articles doesn't mean that there is any validity to what you are saying. If I have a son, and he goes on vacation in Florida for 3 days on December 25th, it would parallel the Winter Solstice just as well, but it could just be that he was visiting relatives for Christmas.

Same with the 12 Disciples and 12 zodiac signs which the Bible explicietly mentions with the word Mazzaroth.
And a dozen donuts is also based on the Zodiac.

Also with all the fish symbolism and text in Christianity. This simply did not happen by accident about the fish stuff.
You are right, the fish symbolism didn't happen by accident, but it had nothing to do with Astrology. We've already explained that.

Jesus was born at the beginning of the Age of Pisces (the fish).
Pisces also rules the feet which just may explain all the feet anointing Jesus got in the Bible.
The sign oppisite pisces is Virgo (The Virgin) hmmm... Born of a Virgin...
These connections are so loose, I can't believe you think that one influenced the other. What difference does it make when Jesus was born unless you have already assumed that there is no such person? What is all the feet anointing? I know of one foot anointing. And what would be the symbolic meaning of Virgo being opposite Pisces? Is the Virgin Mary the opposite of Jesus. Or do you think that the fact that there is a Virgin in the Bible and a Virgin in the Zodiac proof enough?

Look at this!!! This is the description of a piscen from an astrolgy web site:
Imaginative and sensitive
Compassionate and kind
Selfless and unworldly
Intuitive and sympathetic

Sounds an awful lot like Jesus huh?
Wow! I'm convinced. Those broad strokes describe Jesus exactly. I think I'll see what Sagittarius is and see if it sounds like me. Astrology depends on people wanting to apply categories to themselves and others. That's why you might see something like strong-willed instead of jerk. No one wants to think they are a jerk, but strong-willed sounds good.
 
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dollar

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Wow! I'm convinced. Those broad strokes describe Jesus exactly.
I'm Glad we finally are all on the same page :cool:
Although I regret to inform everyone our conversation must come to an end and we must part ways. :cry:

May we put into practice our own special interpretation's of what we believe with an immense will to be close to God.

I leave everyone now with only the memory of our conversation.

The synchronicity is there, Its up to all of you if you want to make the connection. :confused:

I only ask everyone to think about what we have talked about, I mean really think about it. :scratch:

I'll leave everyone with one more URL to tease your appetites:
www.hiddenmeanings.com
I highly recommend this site to anyone who ever thought just for a second in their life that maybe things aren't what they seem. Hence the name of the site "Hidden Meanings."

I may be back but thats for a whole new thread. We shall see.

Agian, farewell and good luck to everyone in reaching intimacy with God. :thumbsup:
 
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Kristos

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I don't see the connection. The winter solstice is a point in time - with no duration - one second days are getting shorter and the next they are getting longer. When poeple say the solstice is today, it's not the whole day, it's just that the point in time of the event falls on that day. This year for example it will occur at : 2007-12-22 06:12
 
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SeraphimSarov

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Although I regret to inform everyone our conversation must come to an end and we must part ways. :cry:

Why is that?

The synchronicity is there, Its up to all of you if you want to make the connection. :confused:

No, I don't want to make the connection, because I'd be willfully deceiving myself if I did.

I only ask everyone to think about what we have talked about, I mean really think about it. :scratch:

We have been thinking about it, thank you.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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AWESOME! THEY SPOKE ENGLISH TOO!!!!

Greek sun = helios
Greek Son = yio

Proof that the ancient Christians actually spoke English too!! Stupid Greeks!

The ancient Greeks did speak English. See, it's not that there are Greek words in the English language... it's that there is a lot of English in the modern and ancient (and apparently FAKE) Greek languages.

Didn't you hear that the KJV is the original Bible that fell out of the sky at Pentecost?
 
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Dorothea

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Didn't you hear that the KJV is the original Bible that fell out of the sky at Pentecost?
^_^ That reminds me of what Frank Schaeffer said he heard a Protestant say once: "If the KJV was good enough for Christ and the Apostles, it's good enough for me." ^_^ ^_^ ^_^
 
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rusmeister

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AWESOME! THEY SPOKE ENGLISH TOO!!!!

Greek sun = helios
Greek Son = yio

Proof that the ancient Christians actually spoke English too!! Stupid Greeks!
Hey! I saw that reference on Star Trek once!
(Remember "Bread and Circuses" - original series -, where they found the planet that had duplicated Roman history? Uhura made the same mistake!)
 
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