Starlight Problem

[Job 33:6]

Both the sky and space are referred to as the heavens. Notice the sun, the moon, and the stars are placed in the expanse of the heavens and birds are also placed in the expanse of the heavens.

Birds are not placed in it, but rather fly across the face of it.

And God said, “Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly over the earth across the face of the vaulted dome of heaven.
Genesis 1:20


The video explains this all nicely.

 

[Job 33:6]

Congratulations you won that discussion now let’s try to explain some more of God’s miracles thru science and see how that works out. Before we begin let’s go ahead and look at the definition of the word miracle to save some time.

Miracle- a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency

Well I guess there’s no point in trying to explain God’s miracles thru science then.

It's not about winning or losing, it's about making progress and developing our foundation.

So logically, it would feel deceptive if God created things with an appearance of age. So with that, I would then say, well, maybe we need to revisit scripture to figure out why God might depict the cosmos to us in such a way. Which is our segue to the video I posted above. And the video isn't saying that earth is flat. Rather it's investigating the original context of Genesis in light of ancient near-east literature.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not about winning or losing, it's about making progress and developing our foundation.

So logically, it would feel deceptive if God created things with an appearance of age. So with that, I would then say, well, maybe we need to revisit scripture to figure out why God might depict the cosmos to us in such a way. Which is our segue to the video I posted above. And the video isn't saying that earth is flat. Rather it's investigating the original context of Genesis in light of ancient near-east literature.

Its not deceptive at all if He intended for people to use the lights to determine the change of the seasons. Especially if He told us when He did it. It’s not His fault if people don’t believe what He told them.

 

[BPPLEE]

It's not about winning or losing, it's about making progress and developing our foundation.

So logically, it would feel deceptive if God created things with an appearance of age. So with that, I would then say, well, maybe we need to revisit scripture to figure out why God might depict the cosmos to us in such a way. Which is our segue to the video I posted above. And the video isn't saying that earth is flat. Rather it's investigating the original context of Genesis in light of ancient near-east literature.

It wouldn't necessarily be deceptive. It could be that God wasn't concerned about having science's dating techniques be accurate.

 

[Job 33:6]

It wouldn't necessarily be deceptive. It could be that God wasn't concerned about having science's dating techniques be accurate.

I don't think I'd even call it sciences dating techniques, so much as I'd call it observation of the naked eye.

For example:

If you saw this image in deep space, would you guess that God made it as is, instantaneously, in it's form as presently viewed?

Or would you think that maybe it has been traveling in a particular direction over some period of time?

You would probably guess that it has been traveling for some period of time just because of the logical consideration that there's a trail behind it.

Another example. Would we presume that some time has passed in the image above for the individual to make footprints? We might guess that it would take more than a couple seconds to make such a trail, based on what we know about the physics of physical matter.

Or at least what we think we know about how physics works.

And then in some cases we have galaxies that appear to have already run into each other, pulling one another apart and leaving a trail behind, such as with the image of the tadpole Galaxy above, or galaxies leaving trails behind them as they move through space.

They give the appearance of having moved and continuing to move, as if they weren't just created yesterday but rather appear to have been around for some period of time.

And so if the tail of a galaxy is 280,000 light years long, even if physical matter moved at the speed of light, It would be hard to imagine how something could travel 280,000 light years in 6,000 years.

And so rather than it being a typical dating technique, it's more about a matter of appearance. Similar to the idea that Adam and Eve would have been instantly created as adults. Which is why I think about this hypothetical idea of traveling back in time and meeting Adam and Eve and saying " hey Adam, where did you get that scar? Maybe Adam has a scar on his leg or something, and rather than it being a matter of a historical event unfolding, Adam says that he was simply created with his scar as if time had passed though it had not.

And it's not just astronomy that we run into these bizarre thought processes. You would run into the same thing if you studied plate tectonics and geology or if you studied population genetics and rates of genetic change and mutation. And you would find it in lots of subsciences as well, things like molecular clock studies or if you're looking at the petrology behind things like regional metamorphosis or ductile vs brittle deformation of structural geologic features etc.

This isn't just a one-off, maybe the scientists got it wrong this time, it's a prevalent brick wall that is run into by dozens of independent fields of science.

And it leads to some really bizarre thoughts when you really get into the scientific weeds.

So, I just don't think this is a matter of scientists dropping ball. I would say that, either God has deceived us, or maybe Satan has deceived us by altering existence in some sort of time warp illusion that by all accounts, by every measurement and every test, appears to be real...

Or somebody messed up with their interpretation of scripture. Which I think, personally I find a bit more feasible.

 

[mindlight]

Well think about this. If you have a galaxy with a tail behind it, the tail, similar to a tail of a comet, stretching out behind it as it moves through space.

And that tail is 280,000 light years long, that means that it would take 280,000 years for light to travel from one end of the tail to the other. Which means that the galaxy and it's physical matter that makes it up, has travelled that far.

And so if the galaxy and physical matter has travelled 280,000 light years in distance, but the universe is only 6,000 years old, how fast would the galaxy have needed to move? Well, 280,000 divided by 6,000 is a few dozen times the speed of light.

So if the universe were 6,000 years old, not only is there a starlight problem, ie how could light travel millions of years through space in such a short time? But there is also a problem of "the speed of matter" problem where entire galaxies have travelled hundreds of thousands of light years, despite the universe only being 6,000 years old.

Imagine if you jogged 280,000 light years in distance and ask yourself, if you jogged at the speed of light, how long would it take you? Well, 280,000 years. So how could physical matter of a galaxy stretch that distance behind a galaxy in motion, in only 6,000?

Unless the galaxy was created with its tail.

 

[mindlight]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

We do not know but I have heard many plausible-sounding theories:

1) That light travels at a different speed in deep space or that light speed may vary according to the medium it passes through or other factors. Something we cannot test from within the confines of our solar system.
2) That we do not see distant galaxies as a result of electromagnetic signatures so much as a kind of universal quantum entanglement that gives us a vision of the universe that is actually much younger than it seems.
3) That the earth is only 6000 years old but exists in a sort of time warp effect. Things far away are ancient because time moves differently the further away you go.
4) That the light show we see on earth does not need to correspond with real stars and so the light could have been created in transit from stars that never existed.
5) That light is slowing down and was much faster in the past

Does Distant Starlight Prove the Universe Is Old?

 

[Job 33:6]

Unless the galaxy was created with its tail.

That's known as the omphalos hypothesis, or last thursdayism. The idea that the universe was created with an appearance of age, though it were not actually of the age it appeared.

The typical response is that it might make God appear to be a deceiver by creating galaxies with tails with the appearance as if they had collided and pulled on one another thus lengthening their tails, though in actuality they were just created instantaneously this way.

 

[coffee4u]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

First is to not assume that every YEC holds to 6-10 thousand years.
This was brought in by Bishop James Ussher in 1656. No one thought this before him and yes many do follow along with his calculations but many of us don't.
Why don't I follow this? Because the Bible is not a calculator. The Bible talks about specific events and people that God wants us to know about while skipping past others.
I also don't follow people who proclaim unknowable knowledge such as the date of creation, which he did as Sunday evening, October 23, 4004 B.C.

As to Starlight, this is based on mathematical calculations which are themselves based on certain assumptions. Change the assumptions you can widely change the calculations. Mankind of extreamly arrogant believing his assumptions about things he really can't know about are actually correct. Based upon assumptions such as an expanding universe when there are far more possibilities.

 

[coffee4u]

I wonder why people who believe in Genesis literally don’t also believe in that dome.

People are individuals and there is more than one way of thinking. YEC isn't a monolith. Some people don't believe in the dome, some of us do.
I believe in the literacy of Genesis I also believe the earth was surrounded by a thick water vapour dome that came down at the flood.

 

[coffee4u]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

For a different view you could try a book called Starlight and Time by Dr. Russell Humphreys who bases his calculation on a closed universe rather than an open universe.

 

[Think...]

There’s an old thread about this so rather than add to it, I wanted to start another, this one especially directed to YECs. If the earth is 6,000 to 10,000 years old how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

Because stars are not what so many have been brainwashed to believe they are.

The Big Bang is their story.

Evolution is their story.

Stars being hundreds and thousands of light years away is their story.

Learn to trust the Word of God.

Learn to trust HIS story.

Learn to ask, and let, HIM show you the Truth of all things.

And don't trust a single thing science claims unless it aligns with HIS Truth and His Word.

 

[Diamond7]

despite the universe only being 6,000 years old.

Nowhere does the Bible say the Universe is 6,000 years old. Chapter two in Genesis begins 6,000 years ago with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The vast majority of the Bible is a history of the last 6,000 years. Genesis 1:28 says: "God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth," There had to have been something here before them if they were told to replenish the earth"

 

[FaithT]

Nowhere does the Bible say the Universe is 6,000 years old. Chapter two in Genesis begins 6,000 years ago with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The vast majority of the Bible is a history of the last 6,000 years. Genesis 1:28 says: "God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth," There had to have been something here before them if they were told to replenish the earth"

 

[FaithT]

Some would say just two people couldve replenished the earth. It makes no sense to me. I agree with Ed Feser’s approach.

 

[Diamond7]

how can we see starlight that’s many, many light years away?

The universe is expanding slightly faster than the speed of light.
So the light from the early universe is traveling along with us.

 

[Diamond7]

Some would say just two people couldve replenished the earth.

Man can produce enough sperm in 2 weeks to populate the whole earth. Women can produce around 500 eggs. When they run out of eggs they go through menopause.

 

[Diamond7]

If earth didn't exist how would time be determined?

Time is based on decay and entropy. This will be in 20 billion years of age. God showed me that eventually the Universe will stop expanding and start to shrink. So everything will all come back together again and become one. For now everything is drifting apart.

 

[FaithT]

The universe is expanding slightly faster than the speed of light.
So the light from the early universe is traveling along with us.

Are you a YEC or OEC?

 

[BeyondET]

I have learned it is quite scary for many people to have faith in God, in areas of creation. Especially when God is pitted against the dreaded science. They (science) have boldly taught their deceptions.

Ahh the dreaded science, and that statement was posted using computer science huh. So using science to convey human thoughts, isn't really conveying actual true thoughts because science is a deception?.