LDS Priesthoods Not Found In The Writings Of The Early Church Fathers

[He is the way]

So you have nothing at all specific about any of the early Church Fathers. They sort of don't exist for you.

Don't think that singles you out. Most Protestants don't have a clue about them. Functionally, for them Christianity went from the apostles straight to their current congregation in about two seconds, MAYBE stopping at the Refomation or maybe not.

I have read enough about them to know that Paul was right about them.

 

[Peter1000]

I started the other thread but I didn’t mention the ECF in my OP. So I decided to start this thread to specifically address this issue. So I ask you where are the references to the LDS Priesthoods in the writings of the ECF?

Church Fathers - Wikipedia

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Early Church Fathers

Here is the thing about ECF. But I have to give you some background first.

The highest office of the MP is the apostles. In the first century church, they were the only men that could call elders and bishops and set them apart for their ministry. The bishop was chosen from the elders of the church in a local area, not older men, but men holding the office of elder, holding the MP/royal priesthood.

For instance: Acts 20:17 gives a good example of Paul, an apostle coming to Ephesus and calling a meeting with the elders in the area.
Acts 20:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.

In the first century church, a man that was called to the office of elder, remained an elder his whole life, even though he might be called to be a bishop later. He would not be offended if he were the bishop, to be called elder. The apostles would not be offended to be called elder, even though they were apostles, and some were bishops. The higher up you go from elder to bishop to apostle, you retain your authority and name of all lower offices of elder, bishop. (1 Peter 5:1)

Even though Jesus was the Son of God, and our Savior, he was also an apostle, and High Priest of the MP. (Hebrews 3:1) and Jesus was also called a bishop (1 Peter 2:25)

So Paul calls this meeting with the elders in the area and just before he departs, he drops a bombshell on them, declaring that their flock would not be spared, but some of these elders in this meeting would turn into wolves and not spare the flock. This came true years later, as Ephesus was warned of Jesus in Revelations to repent or they would be cut off. Apparently, they were cut off, because Ephesus ceased to exist as a major city, and today is in ruins and has been for a long time.
Acts 20:28-30 King James Version (KJV)
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

So what happened when a bishop died? For a while, one of the 12 would go to that city and ordain another bishop from among the elders and everything moved along.

But eventually, all of the apostles were killed, and it is not recorded in the bible that Peter passed his keys on to any other man, even though the Catholic church says he passed them on the Linus in Rome. That is not true, because if Linus had been ordained to take Peters place as an apostle, he would have declared it so. But Linus was only ordained to the office of bishop of Rome, not an apostle to the world.

Antioch too had Peter as their bishop, but when he left for Rome he did ordain another bishop, but not another apostle.

That is all important because only an apostle could ordain local bishops. As soon as the apostles were all killed, then those bishops who had been ordained could serve out their time as true priesthood holders and bishops, but as soon as they died, so did that bishopric.

So long story to get to your point. The bishops/ECF's that were left when the apostles died, stayed bishops until they died and then their office of bishop died too, not having an apostle to replace that bishop. Their power and authority, the royal priesthood/MP died with them, not having the power to pass on their MP/royal priesthood without the Peters keys of the kingdom of heaven.

So the first generation of bishops/ECF's after the apostles died still had the authority to do bishop duties. But the second generation took upon themselves the title of bishop and were ordained by other bishops which was not the way the preisthood works.

The second generation of ECF's did not have Peter's keys and so their bishoprics did not have the authority or priesthood power to do things that heaven acknowledged.

So over the years, this priesthood died out and became less important, and the offices were changed and the church organization changed, and the doctrines changed, as the apostacy gathered steam year after year.

So what the ECF have to say about the royal priesthood/MP became less and less until MP was not spoken of at all. Practically speaking, they talked about bishops and deacons, and priests, but did not include MP in the discussion because they did not have MP or the keys, and did not know about it, even up to today unless you come across and elder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

So very little discussion from ECF on priesthood.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I have read enough about them to know that Paul was right about them.

So from what little you have read you have written the lot of them off. Thank you for finally being clear. That was what I expected your position would be.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Here is the thing about ECF. But I have to give you some background first.

The highest office of the MP is the apostles. In the first century church, they were the only men that could call elders and bishops and set them apart for their ministry. The bishop was chosen from the elders of the church in a local area, not older men, but men holding the office of elder, holding the MP/royal priesthood.

So your position is that once the apostles all died there was no way to consecrate a valid bishop, when the validly consecrated bishops died there were no more bishops, and that was that. Jesus created a Church with a two generation shelf life. Is that your position?

 

[Peter1000]

So your position is that once the apostles all died there was no way to consecrate a valid bishop, when the validly consecrated bishops died there were no more bishops, and that was that. Jesus created a Church with a two generation shelf life. Is that your position?

If you can show me the church that has the "keys to the kingdom of God", then I will be open to changing my position. But if you can't, then I have a great position to stand on.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If you can show me the church that has the "keys to the kingdom of God", then I will be open to changing my position. But if you can't, then I have a great position to stand on.

If you really would change your position, then I shall try. Over the weekend.

I have already started in a small way by asking you if you believe that Jesus started a Church with a two generation shelf life. Did Jesus appoint apostles who could appoint bishops knowing that when the last apostle died there could be no new bishops? That when the last bishops died there could be no new priests? That when the last priests died, the Church would be orphaned? I recall Jesus said something about not leaving us orphaned. If the keys are gone we are orphaned. If the keys are still here we are not.

I'll come back to this later if I can.

 

[He is the way]

If you really would change your position, then I shall try. Over the weekend.

I have already started in a small way by asking you if you believe that Jesus started a Church with a two generation shelf life. Did Jesus appoint apostles who could appoint bishops knowing that when the last apostle died there could be no new bishops? That when the last bishops died there could be no new priests? That when the last priests died, the Church would be orphaned? I recall Jesus said something about not leaving us orphaned. If the keys are gone we are orphaned. If the keys are still here we are not.

I'll come back to this later if I can.

My wife was Catholic, but she is now a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. There are a lot of people who believe that the Catholic Church jumped the track.

 

[chevyontheriver]

My wife was Catholic, but she is now a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. There are a lot of people who believe that the Catholic Church jumped the track.

My wife was Presbyterian, but she is now a member of the Catholic Church. There are a lot of people who believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.

Neither your claim about your wife nor my claim about my wife actually make it so. What we have to look at is Scripture and see how that fits with what we see around us. Except there ARE a lot of people who investigate the Catholic Church and have ended up Catholic. If it had so clearly 'jumped the track' I don't think there would be quite as many.

This morning I asked Peter1000 about whether he thought Jesus started up a Church where in one generation there would be no new apostles, one generation later there could thus be no new bishops, and a generation later there could thus be no new priests. He seemed to think the keys to the kingdom somehow went away with the death of the apostles. At least that is what I was trying to explore with him. I wanted to explore whether he thought Jesus started a Church with planned obsolescence or not.

I might ask you to find a text or two of the early Church Fathers to study to see if you find them anti-Mormon or not. Protestants who read the early Church Fathers are often shocked to find them to be rather Catholic. It was funny when Jimmy Swaggart kept telling his followers that the early Church Fathers believed exactly what Jimmy Swaggart believed. So a bunch of his followers started reading the early Church Fathers, found out Swaggart was telling a story, and many of them ended up Catholic. You mentioned you had not read much of the early Church Fathers, so I thought I would offer you the chance now.

 

[He is the way]

My wife was Presbyterian, but she is now a member of the Catholic Church. There are a lot of people who believe that the Catholic Church is the Church of Christ.

Neither your claim about your wife nor my claim about my wife actually make it so. What we have to look at is Scripture and see how that fits with what we see around us. Except there ARE a lot of people who investigate the Catholic Church and have ended up Catholic. If it had so clearly 'jumped the track' I don't think there would be quite as many.

I agree with everything you are saying here.

This morning I asked Peter1000 about whether he thought Jesus started up a Church where in one generation there would be no new apostles, one generation later there could thus be no new bishops, and a generation later there could thus be no new priests. He seemed to think the keys to the kingdom somehow went away with the death of the apostles. At least that is what I was trying to explore with him. I wanted to explore whether he thought Jesus started a Church with planned obsolescence or not.

I do not believe Jesus started a church with planned obsolescence. He stated this:
That being said I do believe there were times when His priesthood was not on the earth.

I might ask you to find a text or two of the early Church Fathers to study to see if you find them anti-Mormon or not. Protestants who read the early Church Fathers are often shocked to find them to be rather Catholic. It was funny when Jimmy Swaggart kept telling his followers that the early Church Fathers believed exactly what Jimmy Swaggart believed. So a bunch of his followers started reading the early Church Fathers, found out Swaggart was telling a story, and many of them ended up Catholic. You mentioned you had not read much of the early Church Fathers, so I thought I would offer you the chance now.

I have read some things about them from time to time. I have worked with Catholics to feed the homeless. I have been to Catholic Mass and visited Catholic schools. I was born at a Catholic hospital. I believe the Catholic Church is better now than it was in the past. Thank you for your response.

 

[Rescued One]

So you don't accept anything from the ECF? Is that Mormon policy, or just yours?

They accept whatever they can construe to be inline with Mormonism.

 

[Rescued One]

If you really would change your position, then I shall try. Over the weekend.

I have already started in a small way by asking you if you believe that Jesus started a Church with a two generation shelf life. Did Jesus appoint apostles who could appoint bishops knowing that when the last apostle died there could be no new bishops? That when the last bishops died there could be no new priests? That when the last priests died, the Church would be orphaned? I recall Jesus said something about not leaving us orphaned. If the keys are gone we are orphaned. If the keys are still here we are not.

I'll come back to this later if I can.

Mormonism:
The reason the Mormon god removed the priesthood from the earth and did not restore it until Joseph Smith in the nineteenth century is that no man on earth was worthy.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I do not believe Jesus started a church with planned obsolescence. He stated this:
That being said I do believe there were times when His priesthood was not on the earth.

I'm glad you do not have the opinion that Jesus started a Church with planned obsolescence. But a corollary to that is that there was a functional succession of bishops that would endure so that we would not be made orphans. Your opinion that there were times when the priesthood of Jesus were not on earth means that Jesus did leave us orphans for a time. He said he would not.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Mormonism:
The reason the Mormon god removed the priesthood from the earth and did not restore it until Joseph Smith in the nineteenth century is that no man on earth was worthy.

No man on earth is worthy. No man but Jesus was ever worthy. But the priesthood is not earned, just like salvation is not earned. Jesus appointed apostles who appointed bishops who appointed priests, not that they were somehow worthy, but as a grace for the sustenance of the Church.

So the argument of priests being worthy is a bit of a red herring. All of us Christians confront it when we wonder if a particular minister is worthy enough to baptize another of us. Of course not. But we still baptize even with unworthy ministers. The baptism 'works' not due to the holiness of the rotten old sinful minister, but because of the power of Jesus Christ working through the rotten old sinful minister despite the rotten old sinful minister's rotten sins. So the rot of deacons and priests, bishops and cardinals, and even popes is presumed, but that does not destroy the work of Jesus Christ. The rot smells, but does not overpower grace. In fact, grace sometimes abounds to the point where we can recognize that there have been saints among us. There have always been saints among us, those still not worthy, but on the way.

 

[He is the way]

I'm glad you do not have the opinion that Jesus started a Church with planned obsolescence. But a corollary to that is that there was a functional succession of bishops that would endure so that we would not be made orphans. Your opinion that there were times when the priesthood of Jesus were not on earth means that Jesus did leave us orphans for a time. He said he would not.

I believe that Christ's church has been on the earth since Adam. It is clear that the priesthood was on the earth before Jesus Christ was born. Was the priesthood on all parts of the earth at all times? Did everyone have the priesthood?:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 12:28 - 30)

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

The answer must be no. The priesthood must be conferred by someone that holds that priesthood. Was it always conferred properly by the laying on of hands? Just some things to think about. I admire the work ethic and charity of the members of the Catholic Church.

 

[Rescued One]

I believe that Christ's church has been on the earth since Adam. It is clear that the priesthood was on the earth before Jesus Christ was born. Was the priesthood on all parts of the earth at all times? Did everyone had the priesthood?:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 12:28 - 30)

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

Mormons are dishonest when they pretend that they have legitimate priesthoods. The Aaronic priesthood that is given to LDS 12-year-olds was not supposed to be given to 12-year-olds and is no longer needed. Jesus gave Himself as our sacrifice.

Read this

1 Timothy 3:8 Sermons: Deacons, in the same way, must be reverent, not double-tongued, not devoted to a lot of wine, not greedy for money;

1 Timothy 3
8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

"The Jewish Aaronic priesthood and its ritual are represented in the Letter to the Hebrews as imperfect shadows, in a Platonic sense, of the archetypal order of the eternal sacrifice of Christ."
Priesthood - Christianity

 

[chevyontheriver]

I believe that Christ's church has been on the earth since Adam. It is clear that the priesthood was on the earth before Jesus Christ was born. Was the priesthood on all parts of the earth at all times? Did everyone have the priesthood?

That's novel. The rest of us consider the Church was founded by Jesus Christ. That he hand-picked the Twelve and bestowed power upon them at Pentecost to go to the ends of the earth. We think Jesus meant what he said when he said that on a great rock he would build his Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. You seem to think that Church was already built.

The answer must be no. The priesthood must be conferred by someone that holds that priesthood. Was it always conferred properly by the laying on of hands? Just some things to think about.

Catholics and Mormons at least agree that there is a priesthood, and that it is conferred by the laying on of hands. We Catholics start with Jesus, who chose the Twelve, and chose Peter as the leader of the Twelve. The Twelve appointed and laid hands on bishops who continued their work. And those bishops appointed and laid hands on priests and deacons. The priesthood they conferred is that of Jesus, which is of course the priesthood of Melchizedek. That priesthood endures in the bishops, who have continued the apostolic mission. Our differences come down basically to your idea of a complete apostasy of the Church. It seems to be a requirement of your religion, but it does not have a historical basis of actually happening.

I admire the work ethic and charity of the members of the Catholic Church.

And I admire the Mormons for their good habits.

 

[Rescued One]

I believe that Christ's church has been on the earth since Adam. It is clear that the priesthood was on the earth before Jesus Christ was born. Was the priesthood on all parts of the earth at all times? Did everyone have the priesthood?:

If the church has always been on earth, why was a restoration needed?

 

[Rescued One]

That's novel. The rest of us consider the Church was founded by Jesus Christ. That he hand-picked the Twelve and bestowed power upon them at Pentecost to go to the ends of the earth. We think Jesus meant what he said when he said that on a great rock he would build his Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. You seem to think that Church was already built.

Thank you! I haven't see anyone else make that point.

 

[He is the way]

That's novel. The rest of us consider the Church was founded by Jesus Christ. That he hand-picked the Twelve and bestowed power upon them at Pentecost to go to the ends of the earth. We think Jesus meant what he said when he said that on a great rock he would build his Church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it. You seem to think that Church was already built.

The two great commandments were taught in the Old Testament. Certainly there were prophets like Moses, Abraham, Nathan, Isaiah, etc. who lived and taught God's word. Jesus quoted some of these great prophets. Were they not part of His church?

Catholics and Mormons at least agree that there is a priesthood, and that it is conferred by the laying on of hands. We Catholics start with Jesus, who chose the Twelve, and chose Peter as the leader of the Twelve. The Twelve appointed and laid hands on bishops who continued their work. And those bishops appointed and laid hands on priests and deacons. The priesthood they conferred is that of Jesus, which is of course the priesthood of Melchizedek. That priesthood endures in the bishops, who have continued the apostolic mission. Our differences come down basically to your idea of a complete apostasy of the Church. It seems to be a requirement of your religion, but it does not have a historical basis of actually happening.

And I admire the Mormons for their good habits.

Our churches have seen a lot of unity and I believe that is a good thing.

 

[He is the way]

If the church has always been on earth, why was a restoration needed?

We believe that the priesthood needed to be restored.