Police officer hiring in US increases in 2023 after years of decline, survey shows

[rjs330]

am talking about a child whose poverty and context has affected his mental health. If you like I can tell you about any of other poor students in my class....but they also have mental health issues (which...is...my point).

Yeah probably pased down from the parents. Or caused by parental actions. There was a systematic review of the research involving mental health and poverty in adults. It did find that poor adults have higher mental health issues. However the review couldn't verify a causality. In other words was the cause of mental issues fro being poor or was the mental health a cause of the adult being poor.

I can certainly understand a child's stress or anxiety regarding thier family if thier family is poor and the parents are struggling. It causes stress. I grew up poor and so did my wife. But I was one that never knew I was poor or that my parents were struggling. My parents never let our circumstances be shared with my sister and I.

My wife was in real poverty. The stories I could tell. But she did well in school and went on to college.

But we do know that parents can pass genetics down to the kids and mental health is one of the things rhat can get passed down. And circumstances can certainly exacerbate those issues they already have. I know families where things like anxiety which can be traced way back. And not all of them were poor.

But yes I can see how poverty can exacerbate a mental health condition such as anxiety.

 

[rambot]

Yeah probably pased down from the parents. Or caused by parental actions. There was a systematic review of the research involving mental health and poverty in adults. It did find that poor adults have higher mental health issues. However the review couldn't verify a causality. In other words was the cause of mental issues fro being poor or was the mental health a cause of the adult being poor.

Yeah. The chicken and egg thing is definitely a part of it...and it's tricky because every single situation is different. For some tremendous anxiety (or, say, schizophrenia) makes it impossible to keep a job (leading to poverty) and that can lead to other health issues.

But some people may just lose a great job and then have health issues too. I was talking to a homeless dude I decided to help while doing grocery shopping. He told me he was a lawyer (and judging by his diction and vocabulary, I DO NOT doubt it) and then he got into a bad, bad accident and had health issues. Then he got addicted to his painkillers and boom; out on the street. And surprise, now he has tonnes of mental health issues though he's completely cleaned himself up because living on the street is terribly dangerous.

I can certainly understand a child's stress or anxiety regarding thier family if thier family is poor and the parents are struggling. It causes stress. I grew up poor and so did my wife. But I was one that never knew I was poor or that my parents were struggling. My parents never let our circumstances be shared with my sister and I.

You had wonderful parents who should be congratulated. One of my student has a parent that is a chronic oversharer (which feeds into his anxiety too). It bugs me when poor parents saddle their kids with their own worries.

My wife was in real poverty. The stories I could tell. But she did well in school and went on to college.

Honestly, have loving, caring, attentive parents is THE most important part of the equation. But poverty often affects parents' ability to do those things well.

But we do know that parents can pass genetics down to the kids and mental health is one of the things rhat can get passed down.

Certain things yes. But epigenetics is only part of the question: "Predisposition" is a common word to be associated. The environment has a HUUUUUUUUGE effect on whether specific genes may get expressed or not (like my student with the schizophrenic mother).

And circumstances can certainly exacerbate those issues they already have. I know families where things like anxiety which can be traced way back. And not all of them were poor.

But yes I can see how poverty can exacerbate a mental health condition such as anxiety.

Out of curiousity, when you were dirty, ditty dirt dirt poor, did you family have books in the house and did yo uread those books (or did you read them with your folks?) OR did your wife?
I KNOW I have at least 3 or 6 kids in my class who do not have a SINGLE book in their home (please....do NOT get me started)....and I find that one of the most depressing thoughts. NOt a single book.

 

[iluvatar5150]

So now you want to change the subject?

No, I'm not changing the subject. In fact, I'm drawing your attention to a crucial part of my earlier post that you seemed to have missed. Here's my post #16:

A big part of the reason everything boiled over after Freddie Grey is that society had, for too long, enabled criminal cops.

You and many other “law and order” conservatives seek to enable criminal cops. For all of your anti-government rhetoric, you’re eager to cede power to the least capable, least trained, least accountable armed branch of it. But I suppose it doesn’t matter if it’s only the poor and minorities who suffer.

To re-phrase that for the sake of clarity: I was describing local police as the "least capable, least trained, and least accountable" among the branches of government that are armed.

When you responded with:

Least accountable? Now I know you are joking here. Least trained? I know a lot of governmental employees who have a lot less training than Cops do. I think there should be more training but you'd have to cough up the dough. I wouldn't mind seeing police get a lot more training in before hitting the street but I don't see the taxpayers being willing to fork out the cost.

...you apparently missed the fact that I was only comparing them to other armed government employees, not all government employees.

You anti-police rhetoric lacks a lot of details and shows real Iack of knowledge.

No, it had details. You just missed them.

Okay. It ap I ears your real concern is what they are trained in and how much training they receive in specific things.

No, my real concern was pushing back on the notion that it's libs who are "enabling criminals." There have been loads of criminals among the local police departments of this country and every person who pushes back on attempts to raise standards, impose oversight, or otherwise hold them accountable is, themselves, guilty of "enabling criminals."

 

[rjs330]

Poor kids don't get:
Regular rest
Regular, appropriate nutritious food
Regular reminders of their worth
Regular reminders that the adults in their life care for them.
Opportunities to enrich their lives (access to camps or robust extra curricular learning opportunities, sports teams)
A home environment that is:
*peaceful
*calm
*filled with love
*organized
*enriching (no books, for example)
*Supportive

You know you've just outlined how crappy poor parents are.

Inadvertantly you have proved the point I've been saying for a very long time. That poverty is most often caused by people with poor character, unwise, and/or mental health issues or any combination of them all.

 

[rambot]

FTR, I have significant problems with how American policemen are trained (given hairdressers have longer hours to complete than policemen have in training).
I have also seem plenty...PLENTY of examples of examples of cops demonstrating 0 de-escalation skills (I'm thinking, for example, of that guy who had the knee on his neck again? George Floyd!) There's no reason a dude why used a conterfit 20$ bill should be dead on the ground unless it's from just, aweful police work. Aweful. And, of course, the events of the day basically just re-inforce the lack of de-escalation and police work.

 

[rambot]

You know you've just outlined how crappy poor parents are.

It's kinda funny you say that because I was half expecting you (or someone else to pipe in) "Sounds like a typical teenager for the first few".

Inadvertantly you have proved the point I've been saying for a very long time. That poverty is most often caused by people with poor character, unwise, and/or mental health issues or any combination of them all.

To an extent I'd agree. But as your previously quoted study showed, it's a bit of a "chicken and the egg" situation.

That said, I would wager that it's not necessarily my POORESET student who won't be successful but my poor student with ABSYMAL parents. And that person is going to grow up with their absymal parents' character traits, decision making abilities, all that stuff.

 

[rjs330]

you apparently missed the fact that I was only comparing them to other armed government employees, not all government employees.

How many armed government organizations are there? And how do you know police are the least trained of them? Let's compare apples to apples. So the military doesn't count because their purpose to commit war, so it's not remotely the same thing.

And then you have to determine exactly how much training they should have.

Interestingly enough I do agree that police should have more training. And I know a lotnof officers who would agree with that and would love more of it. So if you really want to place blame you need to put it on where it belongs. The government and you.

Are you attending council meetings and legislative meetings and demanding the police get more money for training?

 

[Pommer]

No, I'm not changing the subject. In fact, I'm drawing your attention to a crucial part of my earlier post that you seemed to have missed. Here's my post #16:



To re-phrase that for the sake of clarity: I was describing local police as the "least capable, least trained, and least accountable" among the branches of government that are armed.

When you responded with:



...you apparently missed the fact that I was only comparing them to other armed government employees, not all government employees.



No, it had details. You just missed them.



No, my real concern was pushing back on the notion that it's libs who are "enabling criminals." There have been loads of criminals among the local police departments of this country and every person who pushes back on attempts to raise standards, impose oversight, or otherwise hold them accountable is, themselves, guilty of "enabling criminals."

Yes, odd that the “government is bad!” folk are also the “you can trust the police, though!” declarers.

 

[Valletta]

I don't think that a lack of teaching children "math and english" is what causes poverty. Unless those children go into STEM, those skills are pretty useless above a certain level, when it comes to jobs. You can't just teach people math or english and expect them to magically have a job materialise after school or college, especially in todays world, where any kind of creative job is in dire threat of being done by friend computer sooner or later.

What would really help young people avoid unemployment and poverty, in my opinion, would be a strengthening of the trades. Encourage children to go into trades, improve working conditions and public image for those jobs and you might get plenty of people who have gainful employment for as long as the AI overlords don't build robots who can tile a roof or insulate a wall. They might even make it halfway to retirement before their jobs are obsolete.

Unless of course if the goal is not to ensure that those children are prepared for the job market, but only to ensure they aren't taught DEI or wokeness. Then I guess occupying their minds with english or math is an acceptable choice.

There's a lack of discipline in the schools, low expectations, the teachers should be concentrating on the basics, and the parents should have a choice as to where to send the kids to school. DEI not only takes time away from math and English, but teaches racism and victimhood. Certainly the breakdown of the family, so few boys with fathers, is a major cause as well. I agree with you about trade schools.

 

[Valletta]

12 seconds on Google is all it took. I will leave you to research it.

View attachment 346868

The income gap is indicative to the poverty level. Want me to spend another 12 seconds on Google

Another 12 second:

View attachment 346869

That would be four years after the start of the depression

But plenty of Thompson sub machine guns and BAR’s

There were a lot of gangs of teenagers and a lot of gangs made up of adults--people without money and without work.

 

[rambot]

There's a lack of discipline in the schools,

I'm inclined to agree with this. Sadly, some admins have become too beholden to taking crap from terrible parents of terrible kids instead of just disciplining them.

low expectations,

In some respects, I think this is a bit true as well.

the teachers should be concentrating on the basics,

Honestly, I don't know how many times you have to be told that teachers FOCUS ON THE BASICS. But I'll try a 23rd time:

I spend 99% of my time teaching La, Social, Science, Math, and Gym. Pray, which basics are missing?

and the parents should have a choice as to where to send the kids to school.

Why? If schools were funded based on need, then there would be NO need to have a choice because schools with great need would get great support.

Sadly, what I understand to be the funding formula for public schools in the US is....a bit of a disaster.

And no I don't think PUBLIC money should go to a PRIVATE school. If a parent want their child to go into a private school, they can so choose....and then THEY can pay.

DEI not only takes time away from math and English, but teaches racism and victimhood.

It also blinds critics of DEI to reason, fact, and any teacher telling them how radically misinformed they are.

Certainly the breakdown of the family, so few boys with fathers, is a major cause as well. I agree with you about trade schools.

It's not "few fathers". It's lack of QUALITY fathers. There's plenty of guys out there, but not necessarily a lot of QUALITY guys.

A 2 parent house is not a REQUIREMENT to raise/create/form/mould competent amazing children but it is much, much more challenging.

 

[KCfromNC]

Yes, odd that the “government is bad!” folk are also the “you can trust the police, though!” declarers.

It only lasts as long as the police are prosecuting the right type of people. As soon as the tables turn and, say, the leader of the GOP is prosecuted for breaking the law, it's back to complaining about how bad the government is again. Nothing about genuine support for law enforcement, just using them as useful pawns until they're no longer useful.

 

[rambot]

It only lasts as long as the police are prosecuting the right type of people. As soon as the tables turn and, say, the leader of the GOP is prosecuted for breaking the law, it's back to complaining about how bad the government is again. Nothing about genuine support for law enforcement, just using them as useful pawns until they're no longer useful.

Yup.

Look at how these cop lovers then talk about the cops on January 6.

Disgusting how it turns on and off.

 

[KCfromNC]

Yup.

Look at how these cop lovers then talk about the cops on January 6.

Just like state's rights, or free speech, or whatever other buzzwords are thrown around to rationalize stuff when the real reasons for believing can't be talked about in polite company. The rationalization only lasts long enough to quell the cognitive dissonance, it's not meant to be anything actually consistently taken seriously. The sooner we stop doing so the better.

 

[hislegacy]

Oh come on. The Thompson was expensive and rare and the BAR was even more rare in civilian hands during the 1930s. What connection to poverty do school shootings have anyway?

Do you have data for this or is it just a claim.

 

[iluvatar5150]

How many armed government organizations are there?

A lot. This is a list of just the ones at the federal level:

Federal law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And how do you know police are the least trained of them?

Because the minimum qualifications for local police are generally lower and the amount of oversight at the federal level is far higher.

US Park Police: requires 4 years of college or some combination of work and college

Become a United States Park Police Officer - United States Park Police (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

I looked through a bunch of other sites and that was the only federal police agency I could find that clearly listed the minimum qualifications.

Baltimore County MD, requires a HS diploma or GED:

Career Opportunities - Baltimore County

It is the responsibility of The Sheriff's Office Legal Process Section to process and serve all legal papers issued by the Circuit Court of Baltimore County, or by any official local or state agency in the County.

www.baltimorecountymd.gov

Ditto for Baltimore City:

Hiring a Proud New Generation of City Officers

Great things happen when you Join For Good as a Baltimore City Police Officer. Learn about new officer hiring, salary and benefits of a career in service.

bpdrecruit.org

NY State Police requires ~4 years of college. MD State police requires a high school diploma.


For most local police forces, there is no outside auditor or inspector general. They're on the hook for investigating themselves. At the federal level, however, those IG's are everywhere.

Let's compare apples to apples. So the military doesn't count because their purpose to commit war, so it's not remotely the same thing.

Yes, their purpose is to "commit war," yet they have more restrictive rules of engagement and more oversight of their use of force.

Are you attending council meetings and legislative meetings and demanding the police get more money for training?

yep

 

[Hans Blaster]

Do you have data for this or is it just a claim.

I tried, but could not find precise numbers. What I did find was that the earliest models of the Thompson sub-machine gun were made in the order of several thousands (M1921, perhaps M1923? as well) and that the overall total production through WW2 was about 1.5 million, but that clearly includes lots made for and sold to the military. (As I recall the total AR-15 platform rifles sold to date is about 10x that with a large portion in private, civilian hands.) The BAR seems to have been even harder to obtain for civilians. Both were quite expensive. Both limitations make it very hard for a disgruntled teenager to obtain one and shoot up their school.

 

[rjs330]

Yeah. The chicken and egg thing is definitely a part of it...and it's tricky because every single situation is different. For some tremendous anxiety (or, say, schizophrenia) makes it impossible to keep a job (leading to poverty) and that can lead to other health issues.

But some people may just lose a great job and then have health issues too. I was talking to a homeless dude I decided to help while doing grocery shopping. He told me he was a lawyer (and judging by his diction and vocabulary, I DO NOT doubt it) and then he got into a bad, bad accident and had health issues. Then he got addicted to his painkillers and boom; out on the street. And surprise, now he has tonnes of mental health issues though he's completely cleaned himself up because living on the street is terribly dangerous.


You had wonderful parents who should be congratulated. One of my student has a parent that is a chronic oversharer (which feeds into his anxiety too). It bugs me when poor parents saddle their kids with their own worries.


Honestly, have loving, caring, attentive parents is THE most important part of the equation. But poverty often affects parents' ability to do those things well.


Certain things yes. But epigenetics is only part of the question: "Predisposition" is a common word to be associated. The environment has a HUUUUUUUUGE effect on whether specific genes may get expressed or not (like my student with the schizophrenic mother).



Out of curiousity, when you were dirty, ditty dirt dirt poor, did you family have books in the house and did yo uread those books (or did you read them with your folks?) OR did your wife?
I KNOW I have at least 3 or 6 kids in my class who do not have a SINGLE book in their home (please....do NOT get me started)....and I find that one of the most depressing thoughts. NOt a single book.

I don't buy the whole being poor makes it hard to do parenting well. I know very few perfect parents. Regardless of income. Being a parent is one of the most challenging things one can do and do well. But being poor is no excuse for poor parenting. There are a lot of rich people who are lousy parents as well.

You can be loving, caring and attentive and still be poor. Poverty does not create bad character. Just like being rich doesn't create good character.

I've seen so many poor homes that are filthy, cluttered, the kids clothes are dirty, and piled on the floor. Dirty dishes piled in the sink and lying about the house and in the kids bed. Complete with old rotting food. All this despite the fact that there is a bottle of dish soap on the counter and a full bottle of laundry soap in the laundry room and a vacuum in the closet. My wife always said, just because you are poor doesn't mean you have to be filthy.

Yes we had books. I have noticed that there are a lot of people who don't like books. They don't like to read. We are a reading family, but despite that my son and one of my daughters don't like books or like to read. I often wonder if we are reading less as a society than we used to. With all the electronics and entertainment reading has taken a back seat. We used to read a lot more as a society because that was part of our entertainment. Now we just sit on the couch and play on our phones. I've tried to get my son to read, bribed him encouraged him, gave him all kinds of different books, but not really interested. He never enjoyed reading assignments in school. Yet he has gotten excellent grades all through high school which has continued as he entered college.

 

[rjs330]

FTR, I have significant problems with how American policemen are trained (given hairdressers have longer hours to complete than policemen have in training).
I have also seem plenty...PLENTY of examples of examples of cops demonstrating 0 de-escalation skills (I'm thinking, for example, of that guy who had the knee on his neck again? George Floyd!) There's no reason a dude why used a conterfit 20$ bill should be dead on the ground unless it's from just, aweful police work. Aweful. And, of course, the events of the day basically just re-inforce the lack of de-escalation and police work.

I'm not going to argue the point that police receive enough training. I think professionalism demands training. Police work has come a very long, but I do believe more training should be done before one hits the street.

That being said I've seen some very bad police work done by police organizations around the world including Canada. And we have good research to show that despite the lack of training police so an excellent job with all the wild rapid changing environments and circumstances and laws. There aren't many people, including you who could do that job and do it as well as the 99% do.

Doing your job means arresting people for committing crimes. And sometime even for minor offenses people will fight with the cops for any number of reasons including being on drugs. You fight with police and you must take a very large percentage of the outcome of that.

De-escalation sounds great but it certainly isn't the panacea that people often make it out to be. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And that totally depends on the suspect, not the police. Yes de-escalation should absolutely be a vital part of the officers toolbelt. And as much training as can be done should be done in that area.

But don't think that there will be no more people killed or injured by cops if they had more de-escalation training. I think there would be fewer uses of force with it. But I'm not convinced yet that the affect would be dramatic.

 

[rjs330]

Why? If schools were funded based on need, then there would be NO need to have a choice because schools with great need would get great support.

Sadly, what I understand to be the funding formula for public schools in the US is....a bit of a disaster.

There is no doubt that the way schools are funded is an issue. I also think school culture is a problem as well. In many of the poor areas gangs and out of control teens run the schools. School funding won't prevent that. Most parents want to send their kids to different schools not because the school is lacking in funding, but the school environment is bad. The kid can't learn math and English because the classroom is out of control. There are some serious cultural differences in these places, which money won't solve. Better parenting, stronger families are necessary elements. Discipline within the schools that say we won't put up with this behavior is necessary as well.

I've been a lot of places and seen a lot of things. I remember going to areas where there are certain cultures there and in some the kids are behaved and just normal teens doing normal.teen.stuff. Then others where the teens are loud, obnoxious and out of control. That's a societal cultural issue. And that definitely carries over into the schools.