payment for our sins???

[Grega]

See, most of us live in a civilised society where we have evolved beyond a literal requirement for judgement to be meted out via the 'eye for an eye' method, so I ask 2 questions:

1) How does God sending a human variant of himself (Jesus is God isn't he??) to be killed on a cross 2000 years ago in anyway reconcile the sins(?) I or others may commit given that in general we (certainly I) would find the extermination of life (certainly via crucifixion) to be highly primitive, unjustified, and disjoint from any practical/beneficial alternatives with respect paying for sins?

2) More importantly, suppose Jesus did die on the cross to pay for our sins (and that somehow it was important that this had to be done), how does this one loss of life by an entity that knew it was going to occur counter-balance all the attrocities and abominations commited by all humans that have ever and will ever have existed?


It should be noted that this question is asked by one who does not accept (so far) the proposition that God's actions (if such an entity exists) are (or even should be) perfect and so I would ask that you avoid this kind of response...more I'm asking you to 'sell' this concept to a disinterested buyer! (so to speak)

 

[aiki]

See, most of us live in a civilised society where we have evolved beyond a literal requirement for judgement to be meted out via the 'eye for an eye' method,

Why does your idea of the evolution of a civilized society require the forsaking of "a literal judgment to be meted out via the 'eye for an eye' method? What do you think it means for a "civilized society" to evolve?

How does God sending a human variant of himself (Jesus is God isn't he??) to be killed on a cross 2000 years ago in anyway reconcile the sins(?) I or others may commit given that in general we (certainly I) would find the extermination of life (certainly via crucifixion) to be highly primitive, unjustified, and disjoint from any practical/beneficial alternatives with respect paying for sins?

The way you've phrased this question it is clear that you think your standards ought to be God's. Doesn't work that way - at least as far as God is concerned. He doesn't look to you for the way things ought to be, rather the reverse.

It is the terrible cost of sin, at least in part, which God intends should make it repugnant to us.

2) More importantly, suppose Jesus did die on the cross to pay for our sins (and that somehow it was important that this had to be done), how does this one loss of life by an entity that knew it was going to occur counter-balance all the attrocities and abominations commited by all humans that have ever and will ever have existed?

It was the nature of the life that was given in payment for our sins that makes all the difference. Jesus Christ was "spotless," "without blame," "sinless," and as such was a cleansing sacrifice more potent than all the vast sin of mankind.

It should be noted that this question is asked by one who does not accept (so far) the proposition that God's actions (if such an entity exists) are (or even should be) perfect and so I would ask that you avoid this kind of response...more I'm asking you to 'sell' this concept to a disinterested buyer! (so to speak)

It is unreasonable to approach someone who does believe in the perfectness of God and expect them to talk to you about Him as imperfect. The God about whom they would speak to you is characterized by perfectness - this quality cannot be divorced from their understanding of God for it is, as far as they are concerned, what makes God, God. This is sort of like asking a mathematician to talk to you about numbers but only so long as he denies the concept of zero.

The Bible warns against offering God's truth to the "disinterested buyer." Something about "casting pearls before swine"...

Peace.

 

[AV1611VET]

...more I'm asking you to 'sell' this concept to a disinterested buyer! (so to speak)

Ever wonder why the Bible refers to SIN as red, and not black?

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Do this object lesson with your computer:

1. Launch your PAINT program.
2. Select your paint brush.
3. Select RED as your color.
4. Write the word SIN in the white window --- this is how God sees an unregenerate person.
5. Now select FILL WITH COLOR.
6. Click anywhere in the white window.

What happens? Then entire window turns red and masks out the word SIN --- you can't see it anymore!

This is how God sees the born-again person, with his sins covered by the blood of Jesus.

... and when I see the blood, I will pass over you ...

HALLEUJAH ---

 

[Emmy]

Dear Grega. The Bible, God`s Word to Man, will explain it much more explicit, but you seem greatly dubious of " Payment for our sins." God loves us, God wants us back again. How?? Mankind had moved too far away from God, too guilty of all sorts of sin. God`s Holy Law demands payment, before forgiveness. Jesus, the only guiltless offering, the only Man able to pay the price, gave His Blood in exchange for all our past sins and wrongs. Jesus is now our Saviour, He reconciled us to God, and we are free to return to our original home with God. Our price to pay: Repentance, exchange our selfish and wilful character into loving God above all else, and loving each other as we love ourselves. Jesus taught us to pray: " forgive us, as we forgive those who wrong us." Jesus is our Help and Guide, and you will find that many Christians can testify to the truth of this. Our past sins have been carried away, and now we are free to ask God for forgiveness every time we do wrong. I say this humbly and with blessed assurance, Grega. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[solarwave]

1) How does God sending a human variant of himself (Jesus is God isn't he??) to be killed on a cross 2000 years ago in anyway reconcile the sins(?) I or others may commit given that in general we (certainly I) would find the extermination of life (certainly via crucifixion) to be highly primitive, unjustified, and disjoint from any practical/beneficial alternatives with respect paying for sins?

Ok, so because of our sin we can't go to heaven and because God loves us He sent His Son (one aspect of God). Jesus was fully human and fully God. Jesus lived a perfect life, which is something no one has ever done before or after. When Jesus died, He took the whole worlds sin onto Himself. God is just so sins must be paid for, and Jesus death is payment for all sins since He is the perfect sacrifice. In Romans Paul said, that if many died by the sin of one man (Adam) how much more will we be saved by Gods grace through one man (Jesus). Crucifixion I think is to show that the Son of God would humble Him self to death in such a tortuous (remember it was Jesus choice too). Basically Jesus paid the price for our sin.

2) More importantly, suppose Jesus did die on the cross to pay for our sins (and that somehow it was important that this had to be done), how does this one loss of life by an entity that knew it was going to occur counter-balance all the attrocities and abominations commited by all humans that have ever and will ever have existed?

I think this is answered by what I said before. If you have any problems with what I said please say.

 

[Grega]

Why does your idea of the evolution of a civilized society require the forsaking of "a literal judgment to be meted out via the 'eye for an eye' method? What do you think it means for a "civilized society" to evolve?

The way you've phrased this question it is clear that you think your standards ought to be God's. Doesn't work that way - at least as far as God is concerned. He doesn't look to you for the way things ought to be, rather the reverse.

It is the terrible cost of sin, at least in part, which God intends should make it repugnant to us.

It was the nature of the life that was given in payment for our sins that makes all the difference. Jesus Christ was "spotless," "without blame," "sinless," and as such was a cleansing sacrifice more potent than all the vast sin of mankind.

It is unreasonable to approach someone who does believe in the perfectness of God and expect them to talk to you about Him as imperfect. The God about whom they would speak to you is characterized by perfectness - this quality cannot be divorced from their understanding of God for it is, as far as they are concerned, what makes God, God. This is sort of like asking a mathematician to talk to you about numbers but only so long as he denies the concept of zero.

The Bible warns against offering God's truth to the "disinterested buyer." Something about "casting pearls before swine"...

Why does your idea of the evolution of a civilized society require the forsaking of "a literal judgment to be meted out via the 'eye for an eye' method? What do you think it means for a "civilized society" to evolve?
Because literally taking ones eye for an eye/ or life for a life is a neanderthal and primitive action that surrenders completely to emotion at the expense of thinking things through rationally; furthermore if this 'retribution' is handed out to anyone who isn't a complete loner then you just end up with the family/friends/whoeverelse of those who had their eyes removed looking to give the 'eye-taker' their own 'retribution'.
With respect to the second question, I'm no expert on the subject but I say a society has evolved when its collective (where collective encompasses age/race/gender/and so on...) response to adversity is more sophisticated/ productive than those of our 2000 year old ancestors.

The way you've phrased this question it is clear that you think your standards ought to be God's. Doesn't work that way - at least as far as God is concerned. He doesn't look to you for the way things ought to be, rather the reverse.
So far I haven't seen sufficient justification for the existence of any type of god let alone yours and so I don't accept this statement on the basis that with my present understanding I would say I have good reason to argue my standards are better than your god's (your god as it was defined (at least) 2000 years ago by people with a completely different set of values that is)...that was not meant to be an offensive/blasphemous statement by the way

It is the terrible cost of sin, at least in part, which God intends should make it repugnant to us.
Probably the most attrocious sin that I have committed up to date is that which may have occured in my head at some point (whole different subject I want to start that one is) why does there exist such a 'terrible cost'? who set the price and why?

It was the nature of the life that was given in payment for our sins that makes all the difference. Jesus Christ was "spotless," "without blame," "sinless," and as such was a cleansing sacrifice more potent than all the vast sin of mankind.
The bit that leapt out at me in this response was the word 'sacrifice'...firstly your god has supposedly sacrificed itself to itself, this strikes me as an absurd notion; but more importantly why should a god need sacrifices???

It is unreasonable to approach someone who does believe in the perfectness of God and expect them to talk to you about Him as imperfect. The God about whom they would speak to you is characterized by perfectness - this quality cannot be divorced from their understanding of God for it is, as far as they are concerned, what makes God, God. This is sort of like asking a mathematician to talk to you about numbers but only so long as he denies the concept of zero.
Hmm...sorry for the misunderstanding there, wasn't asking you to tie your hands behind your back more I was asking that though the statement 'God is perfect' may well be a basis for your current worldview, you would simply refrain from making that point in your response given that I don't accept it to be true.

The Bible warns against offering God's truth to the "disinterested buyer." Something about "casting pearls before swine"...
I see

 

[Grega]

Ever wonder why the Bible refers to SIN as red, and not black?

Do this object lesson with your computer:

1. Launch your PAINT program.
2. Select your paint brush.
3. Select RED as your color.
4. Write the word SIN in the white window --- this is how God sees an unregenerate person.
5. Now select FILL WITH COLOR.
6. Click anywhere in the white window.

What happens? Then entire window turns red and masks out the word SIN --- you can't see it anymore!

This is how God sees the born-again person, with his sins covered by the blood of Jesus.HALLEUJAH ---

Do this object lesson with your computer:

1. Launch your PAINT program.
2. Select your paint brush.
3. Select RED as your color.
4. Write the word SIN in the white window --- this is how God sees an unregenerate person.
5. Now select FILL WITH COLOR.
6. Click anywhere in the white window.

What happens? Then entire window turns red and masks out the word SIN --- you can't see it anymore!
I hate MS paint

This is how God sees the born-again person, with his sins covered by the blood of Jesus.
Why should your god require that sins be covered in 'Jesus's blood'?

 

[Prizm]

Hi Grega,

The main issue here is blood. God has always required a sacrifice to be made for sin. In the Old Testament part of the Bible, God required animal sacrifices to be made for the sins of His people. In the New Testament, Jesus replaces that need for animal sacrifices with His own sinless blood.

Why such a big deal about blood? Well, God says in Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul". And in Deuteronomy 12:23, referring to eating animals: "Only be sure you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat."

What God is saying, is that there's something unique and perhaps supernatural about blood. It is the life of the flesh. It is the only physical thing on earth that is a viable payment for sins. A currency, so to speak. When a person sinned in Old Testament times, innocent blood in the form of an animal had to be shed to make that person right before God. This is how serious sin is to God.
Because of the curse of sin (from Adam and Eve in Genesis), our human blood is corrupt. We are all born sinners and initially separated from God, the Bible says.

Jesus Christ, being sinless and holy became a once-off sacrifice. His blood was sufficient for all our sins - past and future. All we need to do is accept that atonement - that covering, and we can have that forgiveness of sin and be reconciled to God. No more debt needs to be paid, and we can confidently say we are right with God and know where we are going when we die.

Every other religion requires something of you: some work or some deed before you are worthy of entering heaven. "Religion" is man's way of trying to appease God. It simply can't be done. Our good deeds are like filthy rags before God, the Bible says. But with real Christianity, Christ did the work and made a way for us. All we need to do is accept His sacrifice and try to live a right life according to God's word.

 

[Grega]

Dear Grega. The Bible, God`s Word to Man, will explain it much more explicit, but you seem greatly dubious of " Payment for our sins." God loves us, God wants us back again. How?? Mankind had moved too far away from God, too guilty of all sorts of sin. God`s Holy Law demands payment, before forgiveness. why? Jesus, the only guiltless offering, the only Man able to pay the price, gave His Blood in exchange for all our past sins and wrongs. but this is just saying that your god paid his own price...this seems absurd! Jesus is now our Saviour, He reconciled us to God, and we are free to return to our original home with God. Our price to pay: Repentance, exchange our selfish and wilful character into loving God above all else, and loving each other as we love ourselves. Jesus taught us to pray: " forgive us, as we forgive those who wrong us." Jesus is our Help and Guide, and you will find that many Christians can testify to the truth of this. Our past sins have been carried away, and now we are free to ask God for forgiveness every time we do wrong. I say this humbly and with blessed assurance, Grega. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

Cheers for the response Emmy, in case you return I have just highlighted and responded to a couple of your points in the above quote

 

[Grega]

Ok, so because of our sin we can't go to heaven and because God loves us He sent His Son (one aspect of God). Jesus was fully human and fully God. Jesus lived a perfect life, which is something no one has ever done before or after. When Jesus died, He took the whole worlds sin onto Himself. God is just so sins must be paid for, and Jesus death is payment for all sins since He is the perfect sacrifice. In Romans Paul said, that if many died by the sin of one man (Adam) how much more will we be saved by Gods grace through one man (Jesus). Crucifixion I think is to show that the Son of God would humble Him self to death in such a tortuous (remember it was Jesus choice too). Basically Jesus paid the price for our sin.



I think this is answered by what I said before. If you have any problems with what I said please say.

Ok, so because of our sin we can't go to heaven...
Why?? what is the obstacle that prevents this? who put the obstacle there? who is preventing that obstacle from being removed?

...and because God loves us He sent His Son (one aspect of God). Jesus was fully human and fully God...
'fully human and fully god'...what does this mean?

...Jesus lived a perfect life, which is something no one has ever done before or after. When Jesus died, He took the whole worlds sin onto Himself. God is just so sins must be paid for,...
must they?

...and Jesus death is payment for all sins since He is the perfect sacrifice. In Romans Paul said, that if many died by the sin of one man (Adam)...
Firstly this would require that I accept a young Earth account of our origins but secondly was eating a forbidden apple really such a massive crime???

...how much more will we be saved by Gods grace through one man (Jesus). Crucifixion I think is to show that the Son of God would humble Him self to death in such a tortuous (remember it was Jesus choice too)...
But this is the part I have a problem with, in todays day and age people like myself have a problem relating to this primitive act...and the one thing that repulses me more is not an arbitrary sin that has been 'cleansed' but the method by which it was cleansed

Basically Jesus paid the price for our sin.
Why should a 'price' be paid?...we are talking about a god here not your average human that needs recompense because their emotions demand it

 

[solarwave]

The price for sin is death, because you cannot go to heaven with sin. That is why it has such a high price.

God doesn't need a sacrifice, you need it. God doesn't have to forgive you, and has no reason to care for you, but loves you reguardless and gave the thing He loved most just so you can have the chance to come to know God. For there to be justice sins have to be paid for and that can only happen through a sacrifice. Jesus is the sacrifice for the world.

 

[Grega]

Hi Grega,

The main issue here is blood. God has always required a sacrifice to be made for sin. In the Old Testament part of the Bible, God required animal sacrifices to be made for the sins of His people. In the New Testament, Jesus replaces that need for animal sacrifices with His own sinless blood.

Why such a big deal about blood? Well, God says in Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul". And in Deuteronomy 12:23, referring to eating animals: "Only be sure you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat."

What God is saying, is that there's something unique and perhaps supernatural about blood. It is the life of the flesh. It is the only physical thing on earth that is a viable payment for sins. A currency, so to speak. When a person sinned in Old Testament times, innocent blood in the form of an animal had to be shed to make that person right before God. This is how serious sin is to God.
Because of the curse of sin (from Adam and Eve in Genesis), our human blood is corrupt. We are all born sinners and initially separated from God, the Bible says.

Jesus Christ, being sinless and holy became a once-off sacrifice. His blood was sufficient for all our sins - past and future. All we need to do is accept that atonement - that covering, and we can have that forgiveness of sin and be reconciled to God. No more debt needs to be paid, and we can confidently say we are right with God and know where we are going when we die.

Every other religion requires something of you: some work or some deed before you are worthy of entering heaven. "Religion" is man's way of trying to appease God. It simply can't be done. Our good deeds are like filthy rags before God, the Bible says. But with real Christianity, Christ did the work and made a way for us. All we need to do is accept His sacrifice and try to live a right life according to God's word.

The main issue here is blood. God has always required a sacrifice to be made for sin. In the Old Testament part of the Bible, God required animal sacrifices to be made for the sins of His people. In the New Testament, Jesus replaces that need for animal sacrifices with His own sinless blood.
But this just seems too barbaric to be attributed to a 'perfect' god, furthermore it doesn't fit well in some of todays societies where sacrificing even animals is ahem...frowned upon.
I personally dislike the notion of Halal meat for that reason

Why such a big deal about blood? Well, God says in Leviticus 17:11: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul". And in Deuteronomy 12:23, referring to eating animals: "Only be sure you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat."
so someone/thing elses blood must atone for a persons soul? or did people hack their own arms off as a sacrifice? Eitherway it doesn't fit well with any god that I would like to worship

What God is saying, is that there's something unique and perhaps supernatural about blood. It is the life of the flesh. It is the only physical thing on earth that is a viable payment for sins. A currency, so to speak. When a person sinned in Old Testament times, innocent blood in the form of an animal had to be shed to make that person right before God. This is how serious sin is to God.
what was in it for the animal?...and why would your god need such currency

Because of the curse of sin (from Adam and Eve in Genesis), our human blood is corrupt. We are all born sinners and initially separated from God, the Bible says.
From the account of this supposed Adam's sin (I don't accept the young earth theory of our origins) given in Genesis I don't see how the crime commited by Adam (eating a forbidden apple) was actually so bad in relation to say... burning someones family alive

Jesus Christ, being sinless and holy became a once-off sacrifice. His blood was sufficient for all our sins - past and future. All we need to do is accept that atonement - that covering, and we can have that forgiveness of sin and be reconciled to God. No more debt needs to be paid, and we can confidently say we are right with God and know where we are going when we die.
From this I infer that for whatever act I commit that prevents others from accepting this atonement such as killing/torturing them etc...I will be ok in the end so long as I myself accept it at some point...in spite of all those who won't (because of my actions)...again doesn't seem like a system I'd want to be associated with

Every other religion requires something of you: some work or some deed before you are worthy of entering heaven. "Religion" is man's way of trying to appease God. It simply can't be done. Our good deeds are like filthy rags before God, the Bible says. But with real Christianity, Christ did the work and made a way for us. All we need to do is accept His sacrifice and try to live a right life according to God's word.
I would say good works > sacrice of blood...nothing else to add really

 

[solarwave]

Ok, so because of our sin we can't go to heaven...
Why?? what is the obstacle that prevents this? who put the obstacle there? who is preventing that obstacle from being removed?

Heaven is perfect, so if you have sinned and go to heaven then you make it imperfect. Something not perfect cannot be in a perfect place and must go somewhere else, that we call Hell/ separation from God.

...and because God loves us He sent His Son (one aspect of God). Jesus was fully human and fully God...

'fully human and fully god'...what does this mean?

It means that Jesus was God in human form. He was a human. He was God.

...Jesus lived a perfect life, which is something no one has ever done before or after. When Jesus died, He took the whole worlds sin onto Himself. God is just so sins must be paid for,...
must they?

Ok, sins, dont HAVE to be paid for. But if they are not you go to hell, for reasons given before. To be forgiven sins MUST be paid for, since God is just.

...and Jesus death is payment for all sins since He is the perfect sacrifice. In Romans Paul said, that if many died by the sin of one man (Adam)...
Firstly this would require that I accept a young Earth account of our origins but secondly was eating a forbidden apple really such a massive crime???

Well I dont believe in young earth, but the story is still true symbolically. What it means is still true, so when talking about its consequences, you can talk about it as if true. Its not the fact that eating an apple is very bad (though it was going directly against what God said), its the fact that it may be a 'little' sin, but it still is a sin. A piece of paper with a black line on it can be called imperfect just as much as a piece of paper with lots of lines on it.

...how much more will we be saved by Gods grace through one man (Jesus). Crucifixion I think is to show that the Son of God would humble Him self to death in such a tortuous (remember it was Jesus choice too)...
But this is the part I have a problem with, in todays day and age people like myself have a problem relating to this primitive act...and the one thing that repulses me more is not an arbitrary sin that has been 'cleansed' but the method by which it was cleansed

If it was forced on Jesus I would see your point, but it was His choice. How can you say it was wrong for Jesus to choose to die that way, if it was His choice? Yes it isn't nice, but that is life, Jesus wasn't given an easy life, but was able to know what the hardest lives of humans are like because He experienced it Himself.

Basically Jesus paid the price for our sin.
Why should a 'price' be paid?...we are talking about a god here not your average human that needs recompense because their emotions demand it

As I said before. God is just so for there to be forgiveness a price must be paid for wrong done. Justice is getting what you deserve, be that good or bad. By Gods mercy(not getting what we do deserve) Jesus paid it.

 

[Grega]

Heaven is perfect, so if you have sinned and go to heaven then you make it imperfect. Something not perfect cannot be in a perfect place and must go somewhere else, that we call Hell/ separation from God.

It means that Jesus was God in human form. He was a human. He was God.

Ok, sins, dont HAVE to be paid for. But if they are not you go to hell, for reasons given before. To be forgiven sins MUST be paid for, since God is just.

Well I dont believe in young earth, but the story is still true symbolically. What it means is still true, so when talking about its consequences, you can talk about it as if true. Its not the fact that eating an apple is very bad (though it was going directly against what God said), its the fact that it may be a 'little' sin, but it still is a sin. A piece of paper with a black line on it can be called imperfect just as much as a piece of paper with lots of lines on it.

If it was forced on Jesus I would see your point, but it was His choice. How can you say it was wrong for Jesus to choose to die that way, if it was His choice? Yes it isn't nice, but that is life, Jesus wasn't given an easy life, but was able to know what the hardest lives of humans are like because He experienced it Himself.

As I said before. God is just so for there to be forgiveness a price must be paid for wrong done. Justice is getting what you deserve, be that good or bad. By Gods mercy(not getting what we do deserve) Jesus paid it.

Heaven is perfect, so if you have sinned and go to heaven then you make it imperfect. Something not perfect cannot be in a perfect place and must go somewhere else, that we call Hell/ separation from God.
So presumably, the way in which we are made perfect is by some form of sacrifice (in our case and those born after Jesus), Jesus's blood...Firstly how does this make us perfect/fit to enter heaven, and secondly is this the only way our 'perfection' can be achieved? If so what obstacle prevents your God from devising a different less primitive method of making us perfect like say...giving some of us a good telling off then letting it be?

It means that Jesus was God in human form. He was a human. He was God.
From this I infer that I am not fully human then...since if I was fully human then your previous statement implies fully god is an attribute possessed by some who are fully human, but those who weren't fully god would be less fully a human than those who were (since they don't possess the attribute of being fully god aswell, something that someone more human than them could possess)...and since it it is evident that I am not in any way a god I draw my conclusion that I am not actually fully human...so what else am I? (so as to distinguish myself from those who are fully human?)

If you want to sidestep that bit above...please tell me what it actually means to be fully human AND fully god?

Ok, sins, dont HAVE to be paid for. But if they are not you go to hell, for reasons given before. To be forgiven sins MUST be paid for, since God is just.
and with respect to my first response above, your god cannot change these rules?

Well I dont believe in young earth, but the story is still true symbolically. What it means is still true, so when talking about its consequences, you can talk about it as if true. Its not the fact that eating an apple is very bad (though it was going directly against what God said), its the fact that it may be a 'little' sin, but it still is a sin. A piece of paper with a black line on it can be called imperfect just as much as a piece of paper with lots of lines on it.
see, all I can see on a local (my) level is that a trivial little sin has such profound consequences...and I cannot see why this should be true

If it was forced on Jesus I would see your point, but it was His choice. How can you say it was wrong for Jesus to choose to die that way, if it was His choice? Yes it isn't nice, but that is life, Jesus wasn't given an easy life, but was able to know what the hardest lives of humans are like because He experienced it Himself.
But I still have to be grateful that Jesus got involved with such an act...and I find the act to be repulsive, therefore I'm not grateful...furthermore assuming that you have addressed one of my points above I'd say that Jesus (being a god and all) didn't have it quite so bad as some people did

As I said before. God is just so for there to be forgiveness a price must be paid for wrong done. Justice is getting what you deserve, be that good or bad. By Gods mercy(not getting what we do deserve) Jesus paid it.
But that is a human concept...I see no reason why it should be a godly concept

 

[Emmy]

Dear Grega. God`s Holy Law stands forever. We were given 10 Commandments by God, they are for own good. Jesus gave us 2 Commandments, ( they contain all 10 Commandmants, which God gave us.) 1) Love God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds. Why? God made us in His image, we, like God, can tell the difference between GOOD, and NOT GOOD. Everytime we do good, God`s Law will in some way, or another reward us. If on the other hand, we ignore it, or do wrong, God`s Law will repay, we will reap the passing consequences. That is for own good, Grega, we are on this Earth to learn to become more and more, as God wants us to be. Our home is with God, that is where we came from, and our God is a perfect God, a Heavenly Father who wants us with Him. As for your 2nd question, we, men and women, needed a Saviour. There was no Man capable, and God made the impossible, POSSIBLE. Mary, a chosen Virgin became incarnate by the Holy Spirit of God, and thus Jesus our Saviour was born. Jesus was all God and all Man, without guilt, but able to feel and suffer as we do, pain and sorrow, compassion and sadness. He was crucified and ill-treated, He bore all our wrongdoings. When God raised Jesus, He came into His Own again, and is with God to plead our prayers. It is too wonderful to be true, but it is true, as thousands upon thousands of Christians can, and will testify, myself included. I say this humbly and with love. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

 

[Ariel]

Every society recognizes good and evil. It comes as no great surprise when the Bible says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 6:23. You have sinned. So have I.

The consequences of sin is death, "For the wages of sin is death," Romans 6:23.

You have sinned; I have sinned. The consequences of our sins is death.

But Jesus said, "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly," John 10:10. That life comes in two ways. First, we can have a better life here on earth. This does not mean an easy life--Jesus never said that. But it does mean a better life. Second, we will have eternal life.

So how do you get eternal life? By asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and be your Lord and Savior. How do you do that? You ask.

Of course, you don't have to ask. You can continue in your own life and die eventually.

If you do ask, He will come into your heart and reveal Himself to you.

So ask already.

 

[AV1611VET]

I hate MS paint

That's okay --- God hates sin.

Why should your god require that sins be covered in 'Jesus's blood'?

Because Jesus' blood is pure and precious.

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

 

[Grega]

That's okay --- God hates sin.Because Jesus' blood is pure and precious.

Hmm, I could steer myself way off topic with this one but won't...If we refer back to what Jesus supposedly is then your original statement is of the form:

This is how God sees the born-again person, with his/her sins covered by the blood of itself.
Seems a rather pointless exercise...why make letting people into heaven such a grizzly and convoluted exercise when he could say...assume their sins have been covered in its blood and plet them proceed merrily onwards?

 

[Ariel]

This is from my blog.



Why Jesus had to die for our sins


The need for Jesus to offer Himself as a sacrifice for us started right at the beginning. The bible says that God created a perfect place. He created living things, then man and woman. Then He gave man free will. He gave them instructions not to eat of a certain tree, or they would surely die. Eve was tempted, she ate, she offered the fruit of that tree to Adam as well, they died.

They didn't die physically right away. The bible says they lived several hundred more years. But they died spiritually. They could no longer walk with God in the cool of the day as they once had. They could no longer have relationship with Him.

God found them hiding, fearful. It was then that the first sacrifice took place. God killed an animal and covered them with its skin. That sacrifice enabled them to commune with God for a little while.

From that time onward anyone who wanted to have relationship with God first had to offer a blood sacrifice. This is because in Adam's fall he and all the generations after him were cursed. They were dead, spiritually. But if something else took that death, then for a little while, they could have relationship with God.

Every patriarch offered sacrifices. Noah did. Job did. Abraham did. When the Hebrews were called out of Egypt God gave instructions to Moses, and the Levitical priesthood and systematic sacrifice were established. The bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, "for it is the blood that makes atonement for your soul," Leviticus 17:11. "And according to the law almost all things are purified with the blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission," Hebrews 9:22.

This system of sacrifice served to make atonement for millions of people over a period of more than 1,400 years, but it was faulty. It depended on animal sacrifice. It could only cover sin, it could not forgive sin, Hebrews 10:4, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins." It also had to be repeated daily, weekly, monthly.

Something better had to come. God knew what that something better was. In all the Levitical sacrifices and before, a sacrificial animal had to be perfect. God had something perfect. He sent His own Son. This is why when John the Baptist first saw Jesus he said, "Behold the Lamb of God," John 1:36.

Jesus became the final sacrifice. It is not possible for there to have been any other way, because the sacrifice had to be perfect. The bible says that we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23, and that the wages of sin is death, Romans 6:23. When Adam and Eve sinned, they died. We sin, we die. But there is a way for the penalty of death to be taken by Jesus, because He was perfect. The bible says that although He was tempted He never sinned, Hebrews 4:15.

Because of the fall we live in a cursed world, Romans 8:21; Gen. 3:17. Because of the fall we are dead in our trespasses and sins, Romans 3:23. But God has provided us a way out.

His name is Jesus. He is the way out. He offers an exchange. Give Him your life, and He will give you His life. Ask Him to forgive you, and you be cleansed by His atoning blood. Present yourself to Him, and He will never cast you out. He will never leave you or forsake you, Hebrews 13:5. He will be with you always, and you will be with Him in eternity.

God gave free will. The ability to choose is never taken away from us. It is up to us to live for Him or not, to go on with Him, to allow Him to make each of us into the son or daughter He desires us to be--cleansed, victorious, freed from the bondages of sin and death. But it is also up to us to choose.

 

[Grega]

Every society recognizes good and evil. It comes as no great surprise when the Bible says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 6:23. You have sinned. So have I.

The consequences of sin is death, "For the wages of sin is death," Romans 6:23.

You have sinned; I have sinned. The consequences of our sins is death.

But Jesus said, "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly," John 10:10. That life comes in two ways. First, we can have a better life here on earth. This does not mean an easy life--Jesus never said that. But it does mean a better life. Second, we will have eternal life.

So how do you get eternal life? By asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and be your Lord and Savior. How do you do that? You ask.

Of course, you don't have to ask. You can continue in your own life and die eventually.

If you do ask, He will come into your heart and reveal Himself to you.

So ask already.

Every society recognizes good and evil. It comes as no great surprise when the Bible says, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," Romans 6:23. You have sinned. So have I.
what is not falling short of the glory of God?..., God itself? (Jesus), Adam??? (did your God foresee Adam's naughtiness coming? and was Adam still not short of the glory of God in this case?)

The consequences of sin is death, "For the wages of sin is death," Romans 6:23.

You have sinned; I have sinned. The consequences of our sins is death.
And why is this a necessary wage?...who set the rules?

But Jesus said, "I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly," John 10:10. That life comes in two ways. First, we can have a better life here on earth. This does not mean an easy life--Jesus never said that. But it does mean a better life. Second, we will have eternal life.
What do you mean by 'a better life' in our first life...accepting Jesus? Is this a global statement?...does this mean that for all people who have accepted Jesus and find themselves gargling their own blood as they slowly die from some horrible affliction, they are experiencing a better life?

Why can't God just let bygones be bygones and give people a better life anyway?...So far I see God portrayed as *human*!

So how do you get eternal life? By asking Jesus Christ to come into your heart and be your Lord and Savior. How do you do that? You ask.

Of course, you don't have to ask. You can continue in your own life and die eventually.

If you do ask, He will come into your heart and reveal Himself to you.

So ask already.
My response to these points would not be on topic of the OP