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Slibhin

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Hold the phone, correct! However... I know you think its a stupid Goy idea, but.... What if G-d actually proved that He would rather Sacrifice Himself, than sacrifice another? You are the one that is engaging dialogue... so can of worms opened.

What if I promised you that I can prove that God can be in two places at once, in the Tanakh... would you take me up on that? The "Physical Manifestation of G-d", on earth, as the invisible Essence of G-d in Heaven is doing something... all at the same time, in the Tanakh.

Will you test my understanding of the Tanakh, at the very least?
Before I start I want you to stop calling yourself a goy or insulting yourself. Goy is an anti-Christian slur and I don't like it. My husband was a Christian and I see it as an insult. It's no different then if I came in here and started calling myself the "K" word.

Anyway...

I never said G-d can't be in two places at once. Jews do not believe G-d will ever assume a human form because he himself said this:

Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Malachi 3:6 "For I, the L-rd, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end."

Being beyond space and time, assuming a human form would place himself within physical limitations which contradicts his nature. I will never accept a premise that HaShem has reversed or contradicted himself. The principles of faith which all Jews are obligated to follow state that G-d is one and we can pray only to him. The notion of HaShem dividing himself, praying to Jesus or saints like Mary is blasphemy and a clear violation of the second commandment:

"You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

The Torah, the 613 Mitzvot, are binding and eternal. This is not my opinion this is what G-d said himself.

Deuteronomy 7:11: "You shall therefore, observe the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day to do."
Deuteronomy 13:1: "Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."
Deuteronomy 29:28: "The hidden things belong to the L-rd, our G-d, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah."
Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Nowhere is a time limit given or any expiration date. In fact, in Deuteronomy 13:6 G-d says that anyone who tells the Jews to worship anyone but him or to change/alter the Torah was to be killed EVEN IF HE PERFORMS MIRACLES. We are specifically commanded not to follow such an individual.

All of this is leading to the simple answer that G-d would not assume a physical form for the reasons above, especially to violate his own decree against human sacrifice or sin atonement.
 
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Grip Docility

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Before I start I want you to stop calling yourself a goy or insulting yourself. Goy is an anti-Christian slur and I don't like it. My husband was a Christian and I see it as an insult. It's no different then if I came in here and started calling myself the "K" word.

Anyway...

I never said G-d can't be in two places at once. Jews do not believe G-d will ever assume a human form because he himself said this:

Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Malachi 3:6 "For I, the L-rd, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end."

Being beyond space and time, assuming a human form would place himself within physical limitations which contradicts his nature. I will never accept a premise that HaShem has reversed or contradicted himself. The principles of faith which all Jews are obligated to follow state that G-d is one and we can pray only to him. The notion of HaShem dividing himself, praying to Jesus or saints like Mary is blasphemy and a clear violation of the second commandment:

"You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

The Torah, the 613 Mitzvot, are binding and eternal. This is not my opinion this is what G-d said himself.

Deuteronomy 7:11: "You shall therefore, observe the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day to do."
Deuteronomy 13:1: "Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."
Deuteronomy 29:28: "The hidden things belong to the L-rd, our G-d, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah."
Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Nowhere is a time limit given or any expiration date. In fact, in Deuteronomy 13:6 G-d says that anyone who tells the Jews to worship anyone but him or to change/alter the Torah was to be killed EVEN IF HE PERFORMS MIRACLES. We are specifically commanded not to follow such an individual.

All of this is leading to the simple answer that G-d would not assume a physical form for the reasons above, especially to violate his own decree against human sacrifice or sin atonement.
I will honor you and stop using that word towards myself when I speak with you. And… your answers are spoken as a well versed in Torah and Tanakh, Jewess.
 
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Grip Docility

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Before I start I want you to stop calling yourself a goy or insulting yourself. Goy is an anti-Christian slur and I don't like it. My husband was a Christian and I see it as an insult. It's no different then if I came in here and started calling myself the "K" word.

Anyway...

I never said G-d can't be in two places at once. Jews do not believe G-d will ever assume a human form because he himself said this:

Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Malachi 3:6 "For I, the L-rd, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end."

Being beyond space and time, assuming a human form would place himself within physical limitations which contradicts his nature. I will never accept a premise that HaShem has reversed or contradicted himself. The principles of faith which all Jews are obligated to follow state that G-d is one and we can pray only to him. The notion of HaShem dividing himself, praying to Jesus or saints like Mary is blasphemy and a clear violation of the second commandment:

"You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

The Torah, the 613 Mitzvot, are binding and eternal. This is not my opinion this is what G-d said himself.

Deuteronomy 7:11: "You shall therefore, observe the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day to do."
Deuteronomy 13:1: "Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."
Deuteronomy 29:28: "The hidden things belong to the L-rd, our G-d, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah."
Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Nowhere is a time limit given or any expiration date. In fact, in Deuteronomy 13:6 G-d says that anyone who tells the Jews to worship anyone but him or to change/alter the Torah was to be killed EVEN IF HE PERFORMS MIRACLES. We are specifically commanded not to follow such an individual.

All of this is leading to the simple answer that G-d would not assume a physical form for the reasons above, especially to violate his own decree against human sacrifice or sin atonement.
May I make a presumption? You and your husband respected one another’s beliefs and shared them with one another, knowing that neither would shift view. Forgive me for presuming this, but is it true?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Before I start I want you to stop calling yourself a goy or insulting yourself. Goy is an anti-Christian slur and I don't like it. My husband was a Christian and I see it as an insult. It's no different then if I came in here and started calling myself the "K" word.

Anyway...

I never said G-d can't be in two places at once. Jews do not believe G-d will ever assume a human form because he himself said this:

Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Malachi 3:6 "For I, the L-rd, have not changed; and you, the sons of Jacob, have not reached the end."

Being beyond space and time, assuming a human form would place himself within physical limitations which contradicts his nature. I will never accept a premise that HaShem has reversed or contradicted himself. The principles of faith which all Jews are obligated to follow state that G-d is one and we can pray only to him. The notion of HaShem dividing himself, praying to Jesus or saints like Mary is blasphemy and a clear violation of the second commandment:

"You shall have no other gods beside Me. You shall not make for yourself any graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, nor serve them, for I, the Lord Your G-d, am a jealous G-d, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation."

The Torah, the 613 Mitzvot, are binding and eternal. This is not my opinion this is what G-d said himself.

Deuteronomy 7:11: "You shall therefore, observe the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances, which I command you this day to do."
Deuteronomy 13:1: "Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."
Deuteronomy 29:28: "The hidden things belong to the L-rd, our G-d, but the revealed things apply to us and to our children forever: that we must fulfill all the words of this Torah."
Numbers 23:19: "G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?"

Nowhere is a time limit given or any expiration date. In fact, in Deuteronomy 13:6 G-d says that anyone who tells the Jews to worship anyone but him or to change/alter the Torah was to be killed EVEN IF HE PERFORMS MIRACLES. We are specifically commanded not to follow such an individual.

All of this is leading to the simple answer that G-d would not assume a physical form for the reasons above, especially to violate his own decree against human sacrifice or sin atonement.

Well, now that you're here, what would you like to accomplish in conversation with us?
 
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Grip Docility

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Well, now that you're here, what would you like to accomplish in conversation with us?
I don’t speak for anyone but myself… but I would assume conversation for the sake of conversation… because that’s what kind hearted people do. :)

That’s just my opinion.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I don’t speak for anyone but myself… but I would assume conversation for the sake of conversation… because that’s what kind hearted people do. :)

That’s just my opinion.

I'm sorry. Have we spoken with each other before?
 
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Yusuphhai

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Israeli Arab Muslim and Jewish soldiers fight for Peaceful life of Israel together. From Noahide's perspective, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Messianic, and others can all reach a consensus to maintain the survival of the Israeli nation without changing anyone's form of faith. Messianic can also be a form allowed by Noahide's law.
 
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Slibhin

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View attachment 346623
Israeli Arab Muslim and Jewish soldiers fight for Peaceful life of Israel together. From Noahide's perspective, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Messianic, and others can all reach a consensus to maintain the survival of the Israeli nation without changing anyone's form of faith. Messianic can also be a form allowed by Noahide's law.
Is there a point to this? I have no idea how to respond.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I just like talking to people.

That's wonderful! We have that in common and even though I'm not Jewish I attempt to moderately engage and learn from those who express various angles of Jewish thought as a part of my overall philosophical and religious outlook.
 
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oikonomia

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G-d does not beam special knowledge and revelations into people's heads. I can talk to 20 people and get 20 different comments that all disagree with each other while each claiming G-d told them.
God does enlighten a deeper part of man called the human spirit. And then the mind of man assists in understanding the light
of intuition God has shown in the human spirit.

For example the oldest book in the Bible Job -
But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. (Job. 32:8)

The spirit which is the breath of God is called the lamp of Jehovah for the purpose of illuminating man's inner parts of the soul.
The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being. (Prov. 20:27)

You have not only a mind. You have something deeper which is an "organ" for prayer, touching the Spirit of God, and
sensing what God is trying to communicate with you. This is the spirit of man which is so important that it ranks with
the heavens and the earth.


The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zech. 12:1)

The heavens were created for the earth.
The earth's foundation was lain for humanity.
And within human beings there is
"the spirit within him" for the express purpose of touching, fellowshipping, communing with the
the living God.


You have a human spirit which needs to be healed from a comatose and deadened state because of sin.
You should go to prayer to God and insist that you WANT to experience your human spirit to know God and enjoy God.

If your spirit is not functioning to enjoy God you are a three diminsional being only functioning on two dimensions.
We need all three - spirit and soul and body to know reality. Otherwise we sense something is missing in us.

Our comatose human spirit must be healed of its deadened state through the resurrection life of Christ entering into us.
The enlivening of the deadened and damaged human spirit is a new birth.
God wants more thnt you just know about Him yet not know intimately Himself as a living God.

You are not a prophet and neither am I.
We are not all prophets in the sense of supernatural prediction.
But to speak for God and speak forth God every reborn man or woman may prophesy.
Again, to be a prophet is not restricted to miraculous acts or predictions.
I am a prophet today speaking forth on behalf of God. And you can do the same thing.

When Moses was informed that others in the camp were prophesying he told Joshua he desired that all
God's people would prophesy and that His Spirit would flow through all of them.

And a certain young man ran and told Moses and said, Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.
And Joshua the son of Nun, the attendant of Moses, one of his chosen men, answered and said, My lord Moses, restrain them!
But Moses said to him, Are you jealous for my sake? Oh that all Jehovah’s people were prophets, that Jehovah would put His Spirit upon them!
(Numbers 11:27-29)

You see while all God's people may not give prophetic predictions God wants to pour out His Spirit
that men and women young and old would prophesy.

And afterward I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh, / And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; / Your old men shall dream dreams; / Your young men shall see visions. Indeed even upon the male and female slaves / In those days I will pour out My Spirit. (Joel 2:28,29)
Have you even read Exodus?
Yes. But I consider that no one ever "finishes" reading the word of God.
I read all the books of the Bible prayerfully turning the text I read into petitions, supplications, praises, thanksgivngs.

I mingle my reading with praying and my praying with reading. This is most effective in enjoying God as the living water
quenching, reviving, refreshing all my inner being.

Yes, yes. I read Exodus and all the word of God from Genesis to Revelation.
To read it is sweeter than honey comb to my spiritual taste.

What would you point out to me about Exodus?

The reason they didn't go straight to Israel was as punishment for their rebellion, as HaShem decreed no one living from their generation (with several exceptions) would see the promised land.
Yes. Because of the rebellion and unbelief of the majority they held back those who would obey to enter.
So the unbelieving were disciplined. But of that generation two entered besides all the children of the first generation.
That was Joshua and Caleb because they had a different spirit.

I am waiting to be told something by you I didn't know in Exodus.

The Messiah doesn't have the power to do anything, G-d does. Messiah means "anointed" which is purely a title.
That's not what your Hebrew Bible says.
He is the Child both who is the Mighty God.
He is the Son given who is mysteriously the Eternal Father.

And how can He have no power yet the govenment rests upon His shoulders.

For a child is born to us, / A Son is given to us; / And the government / Is upon His shoulder; / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father, / Prince of Peace.
To the increase of His government / And to His peace there is no end, / Upon the throne of David / And over His kingdom, / To establish it / And to uphold it / In justice and righteousness / From now to eternity. / The zeal of Jehovah of hosts / Will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6,7)

He is called Wonderful because He Himself is full of wonder. He is so seamlessly one with God that He being a human child
is the embodiment of the Mighty God. And He being a given son is so mingled and united with the Divine that He is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just,
because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. (John 5:30)


This is a man 1,000,000 % submissive, obedient, responsive to God His Father.

. . . for the works which the Father has given Me to finish, the works themselves which I do, testify concerning Me that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified concerning Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor have you seen His form,
And you do not have His word abiding in you, for Him whom He sent, this One you do not believe. (John 5:36b-38)

He will restore Israel, reunite the Jews, establish world peace and bring knowledge of G-d to the world.
I completely agree. Don't miss all the enjoyment!

Speaking of Exodus the bush that burned with fire but was not consummed by the flames points to
the mingling of man with the holy God. This was God's eternal purpose from the beginning to unite His divine and holy nature
with first A man, and then will all His redeemed children.

Man and God can be united and man not destroyed was hinted at to Moses in the scene of the burning thorn bush.
This sign speaks of the incarnation of God in man.

Exodus 3:2-4 - And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. And when he looked, there was the thornbush, burning with fire; but the thornbush was not consumed.

And Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thornbush does not burn up.

And when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am.

You see Yahweh was Him who dwelt in a bush!
And the favor of Him who dwelt in the thornbush. / May they come upon the head of Joseph, / And upon the top of the head of him who is separated among his brothers. (Deut. 33:16b)

God was seen as the firey one sent as The Angel of Jehovah. And He is interchangeable with Jehovah God.

And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. (Exodus 3:2a) . . .
And when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am. (v.4) . . .
And He said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. (v.6)

Do you see? The One sent by Jehovah as the Angel of Jehovah is interchangeable with Jehovah Himself.

I hope whenever you think now about the bush that held the fire yet was not burnt up you will
consider the incarnation of God as the Sent Son of God the Messiah. This One born child is the embodiment of the Mighty God.
This Son given unto us is the incarnation as a man of the Eternal Father.

This profound reality was unfolded gradually and progressively in the Bible.
Just as the Exodus materialized gradually under leadership of Moses.


The suffering is Israel because the preceding text clearly says so. Israel is referred to as the servant of G-d throughout Isaiah, and until given a good argument for otherwise I have no reason to believe that one verse is somehow different.
Actually, even a Gentile king Cyrus is called the Servant of God in Isaiah because God used Cyrus to allow the Hebrews
to return to the good land and rebuild the city and the temple devastated by the Gentiles. So also sometimes the prophet Isaiah himself is
seen as God's servant in this book.

But in chapter 53 it is the Messiah who is the suffering servant.
But Israel as the Suffering Servant would not make sense.

v.2 - For He grew up like a tender plant before Him, / And like a root out of dry ground. / He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him, / Nor beautiful appearance that we should desire Him.

The land of Israel was called "the beautiful land" and was desirable, comely, attractive, and lovely.
And Mt Zion is described as the joy of the whole earth. So verse 2 should not refer to Israel the land. (See Psalm 48)
Beautiful in elevation, / The joy of the whole earth, / Is Mount Zion, the sides of the north, / The city of the great King.

This Servant is an unattractive man with not obvious outward beauty that He should stand out from others.

He was despised; and we did not esteem Him. (v. 3c)
Israel was not despised by the Israelites though they were despised by surrounding nations.

But He was wounded because of our transgressions; / He was crushed because of our iniquities; / The chastening for our peace was upon Him, / And by His stripes we have been healed. (v.5)
It would be contraditory to think Israel suffered in a substitutionary way for itself.
The stroke was DUE Israel. So the substitutionary suffering servant must be someone other than the one to whom the stroke was due.

By oppression and by judgment He was taken away; / And as for His generation, who among them had the thought / That He was cut off out of the land of the living / For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke
was due? (v.8)

If the stroke was due Israel than Israel cannot suffer that stroke in a substitionay way.

The Suffering Servant must see the vindication of His substitutionary death. Therefore He has to be raised from the dead
as Jesus was.

He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, / And He will be satisfied; / By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, / And He will bear their iniquities. (v.11)

That is all I can write at this time. The Suffering Servant is the incarnated God as a man who is able to die.

Do not fear; I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold,
I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (See Revelation 1:17b.18)
 
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Slibhin

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God does enlighten a deeper part of man called the human spirit. And then the mind of man assists in understanding the light
of intuition God has shown in the human spirit.

For example the oldest book in the Bible Job -
But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. (Job. 32:8)

The spirit which is the breath of God is called the lamp of Jehovah for the purpose of illuminating man's inner parts of the soul.
The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, Searching all the innermost parts of the inner being. (Prov. 20:27)

You have not only a mind. You have something deeper which is an "organ" for prayer, touching the Spirit of God, and
sensing what God is trying to communicate with you. This is the spirit of man which is so important that it ranks with
the heavens and the earth.


The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundations of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him, (Zech. 12:1)

The heavens were created for the earth.
The earth's foundation was lain for humanity.
And within human beings there is
"the spirit within him" for the express purpose of touching, fellowshipping, communing with the
the living God.


You have a human spirit which needs to be healed from a comatose and deadened state because of sin.
You should go to prayer to God and insist that you WANT to experience your human spirit to know God and enjoy God.

If your spirit is not functioning to enjoy God you are a three diminsional being only functioning on two dimensions.
We need all three - spirit and soul and body to know reality. Otherwise we sense something is missing in us.

Our comatose human spirit must be healed of its deadened state through the resurrection life of Christ entering into us.
The enlivening of the deadened and damaged human spirit is a new birth.
God wants more thnt you just know about Him yet not know intimately Himself as a living God.


We are not all prophets in the sense of supernatural prediction.
But to speak for God and speak forth God every reborn man or woman may prophesy.
Again, to be a prophet is not restricted to miraculous acts or predictions.
I am a prophet today speaking forth on behalf of God. And you can do the same thing.

When Moses was informed that others in the camp were prophesying he told Joshua he desired that all
God's people would prophesy and that His Spirit would flow through all of them.

And a certain young man ran and told Moses and said, Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp.
And Joshua the son of Nun, the attendant of Moses, one of his chosen men, answered and said, My lord Moses, restrain them!
But Moses said to him, Are you jealous for my sake? Oh that all Jehovah’s people were prophets, that Jehovah would put His Spirit upon them!
(Numbers 11:27-29)

You see while all God's people may not give prophetic predictions God wants to pour out His Spirit
that men and women young and old would prophesy.

And afterward I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh, / And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; / Your old men shall dream dreams; / Your young men shall see visions. Indeed even upon the male and female slaves / In those days I will pour out My Spirit. (Joel 2:28,29)

Yes. But I consider that no one ever "finishes" reading the word of God.
I read all the books of the Bible prayerfully turning the text I read into petitions, supplications, praises, thanksgivngs.

I mingle my reading with praying and my praying with reading. This is most effective in enjoying God as the living water
quenching, reviving, refreshing all my inner being.

Yes, yes. I read Exodus and all the word of God from Genesis to Revelation.
To read it is sweeter than honey comb to my spiritual taste.

What would you point out to me about Exodus?


Yes. Because of the rebellion and unbelief of the majority they held back those who would obey to enter.
So the unbelieving were disciplined. But of that generation two entered besides all the children of the first generation.
That was Joshua and Caleb because they had a different spirit.

I am waiting to be told something by you I didn't know in Exodus.


That's not what your Hebrew Bible says.
He is the Child both who is the Mighty God.
He is the Son given who is mysteriously the Eternal Father.

And how can He have no power yet the govenment rests upon His shoulders.

For a child is born to us, / A Son is given to us; / And the government / Is upon His shoulder; / And His name will be called / Wonderful Counselor, / Mighty God, / Eternal Father, / Prince of Peace.
To the increase of His government / And to His peace there is no end, / Upon the throne of David / And over His kingdom, / To establish it / And to uphold it / In justice and righteousness / From now to eternity. / The zeal of Jehovah of hosts / Will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6,7)

He is called Wonderful because He Himself is full of wonder. He is so seamlessly one with God that He being a human child
is the embodiment of the Mighty God. And He being a given son is so mingled and united with the Divine that He is the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

I can do nothing from Myself; as I hear, I judge, and My judgment is just,
because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me. (John 5:30)


This is a man 1,000,000 % submissive, obedient, responsive to God His Father.

. . . for the works which the Father has given Me to finish, the works themselves which I do, testify concerning Me that the Father has sent Me. And the Father who sent Me, He has testified concerning Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor have you seen His form,
And you do not have His word abiding in you, for Him whom He sent, this One you do not believe. (John 5:36b-38)


I completely agree. Don't miss all the enjoyment!

Speaking of Exodus the bush that burned with fire but was not consummed by the flames points to
the mingling of man with the holy God. This was God's eternal purpose from the beginning to unite His divine and holy nature
with first A man, and then will all His redeemed children.

Man and God can be united and man not destroyed was hinted at to Moses in the scene of the burning thorn bush.
This sign speaks of the incarnation of God in man.

Exodus 3:2-4 - And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. And when he looked, there was the thornbush, burning with fire; but the thornbush was not consumed.

And Moses said, I must turn aside now and see this great sight, why the thornbush does not burn up.

And when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am.

You see Yahweh was Him who dwelt in a bush!
And the favor of Him who dwelt in the thornbush. / May they come upon the head of Joseph, / And upon the top of the head of him who is separated among his brothers. (Deut. 33:16b)

God was seen as the firey one sent as The Angel of Jehovah. And He is interchangeable with Jehovah God.

And the Angel of Jehovah appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a thornbush. (Exodus 3:2a) . . .
And when Jehovah saw that he had turned aside to look, God called to him out of the midst of the thornbush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here I am. (v.4) . . .
And He said, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. (v.6)

Do you see? The One sent by Jehovah as the Angel of Jehovah is interchangeable with Jehovah Himself.

I hope whenever you think now about the bush that held the fire yet was not burnt up you will
consider the incarnation of God as the Sent Son of God the Messiah. This One born child is the embodiment of the Mighty God.
This Son given unto us is the incarnation as a man of the Eternal Father.

This profound reality was unfolded gradually and progressively in the Bible.
Just as the Exodus materialized gradually under leadership of Moses.



Actually, even a Gentile king Cyrus is called the Servant of God in Isaiah because God used Cyrus to allow the Hebrews
to return to the good land and rebuild the city and the temple devastated by the Gentiles. So also sometimes the prophet Isaiah himself is
seen as God's servant in this book.

But in chapter 53 it is the Messiah who is the suffering servant.
But Israel as the Suffering Servant would not make sense.

v.2 - For He grew up like a tender plant before Him, / And like a root out of dry ground. / He has no attracting form nor majesty that we should look upon Him, / Nor beautiful appearance that we should desire Him.

The land of Israel was called "the beautiful land" and was desirable, comely, attractive, and lovely.
And Mt Zion is described as the joy of the whole earth. So verse 2 should not refer to Israel the land. (See Psalm 48)
Beautiful in elevation, / The joy of the whole earth, / Is Mount Zion, the sides of the north, / The city of the great King.

This Servant is an unattractive man with not obvious outward beauty that He should stand out from others.

He was despised; and we did not esteem Him. (v. 3c)
Israel was not despised by the Israelites though they were despised by surrounding nations.

But He was wounded because of our transgressions; / He was crushed because of our iniquities; / The chastening for our peace was upon Him, / And by His stripes we have been healed. (v.5)
It would be contraditory to think Israel suffered in a substitutionary way for itself.
The stroke was DUE Israel. So the substitutionary suffering servant must be someone other than the one to whom the stroke was due.

By oppression and by judgment He was taken away; / And as for His generation, who among them had the thought / That He was cut off out of the land of the living / For the transgression of my people to whom the stroke
was due? (v.8)

If the stroke was due Israel than Israel cannot suffer that stroke in a substitionay way.

The Suffering Servant must see the vindication of His substitutionary death. Therefore He has to be raised from the dead
as Jesus was.

He will see the fruit of the travail of His soul, / And He will be satisfied; / By the knowledge of Him, the righteous One, My Servant, will make the many righteous, / And He will bear their iniquities. (v.11)

That is all I can write at this time. The Suffering Servant is the incarnated God as a man who is able to die.

Do not fear; I am the First and the Last And the living One; and I became dead, and behold,
I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (See Revelation 1:17b.18)
Huh?
 
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Slibhin

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May I make a presumption? You and your husband respected one another’s beliefs and shared them with one another, knowing that neither would shift view. Forgive me for presuming this, but is it true?
Why are you asking?
 
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oikonomia

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Which part of my post baffles you the most specifically?

And do you see why you saying Israel nationally is the Suffering Servant creates a "Huh?" in
even some Jewish readers of Isaiah 53?

Take verse 8 and substitute "Israel" for "He".

That He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?

Your interpretation would be That [Israel] was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?

In your next post to me explain. If Israel is "my people to whom the stroke was due"
then how can "my people" Israel suffer a stroke in a sustitutionary way to themselves ?
 
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So? I don't believe in Jesus or the Christian bible. What do I care what it says?
I am interested to see if Slibhin cares for what the Hebrew Bible says.

Slibhin, I hope, will explain HOW if "my people" Israel was DUE a divine stroke, then how can
Israel step in and take the stroke for itself as a substitute?

That He was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due?

Your [Slibhin's] interpretation would be - That [Israel] was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people [Israel] to whom the stroke was due?
 
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Grip Docility

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Why are you asking?
Well, to be 100% honest, the fact that you have been shown where HaShem in heaven sends fire to Sodom and HaShem is visiting Abraham on earth at the same time… and is fed by Abraham… and so forth… I suspect that the two of you respected one another’s views, shared them and maintained respect!

Hey, I could be wrong. But, if it is true, that is beautiful and says much about yourself and, HaShem bless and keep him, your husband who has passed from earth.
 
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Grip Docility

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what do you mean by ""Well, I understand a specific place in Acts 1 due to study.""

I have more to reply to you but want to understand this first,

Blessings.
I was having this discussion on another thread and JUST finished the EXEGESIS, to ensure that I wasn't employing EISEGESIS.

Acts 1:6-7 Again... Acts 1:10-12

Blessings

Romans 11:25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers,
Israel, National Israel, that is not Grafted into the Body of Christ, because of its Unbelief and Broken off as discussed in the same exact chapter of Romans 11, earlier... which Paul has explicitly asked those Grafted into the BOC by faith not to be arrogant or conceited towards...

I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery:
Paul is about to dispense secret knowledge that is to be used in final battle strategy against Satan's empire...

Mystery / Musterion Greek Lexicon
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

́mustērion

1) hidden thing, secret, mystery

1a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals

1b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding

1c) a hidden purpose or counsel

1c1) secret will

1c1a) of men

1c1b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godly

2) in rabbinic writings, it denotes the mystic or hidden sense

2a) of an OT saying

2b) of an image or form seen in a vision

2c) of a dream

A partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
Not all of Israel rejected Messiah and they are thus grafted into the BOC. However, Israel that has rejected Messiah, is broken off from the BOC, due to that Hardening... and they will remain hardened, "Until the full number of Gentiles has come in." (Luke 21:24)

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
Part of Israel is now absorbed or grafted into the BOC, yet the remaining Unbelieving Jews of Israel, Literal descendants of Jacob that reject Jesus will be joined into the BOC per the timing mentioned in verse 25 and (Luke 21:24)

The Liberator will come from Zion;;
(Acts 1:6-7)(Matthew 24:30-39)
Zechariah 14 A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided in your presence. 2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.

3 Then the Lord will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,(Acts 1:9-12) which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
He will turn away godlessness from Jacob.
This is LITERAL ISRAEL by BLOOD AND LAND ENTITLMENT! Jacob is the KEY TO MAKING THIS ASSERTION Bullet Proof, which IT IS, thanks to ALL SCRIPTURE!

Joel 3
Joel 3 [a]Yes, in those days and at that time,
when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will gather all the nations
and take them to the Valley of Jehoshapha
t.[b] Revelation 11:18
I will enter into judgment with them there
because of My people, My inheritance Israel.
The nations have scattered the Israelites
in foreign countries
and divided up My land.

3 They cast lots for My people;
they bartered a boy for a prostitute
and sold a girl for wine to drink.
4 And also: Tyre, Sidon, and all the territories of Philistia—what are you to Me? Are you paying Me back or trying to get even with Me? I will quickly bring retribution on your heads. 5 For you took My silver and gold and carried My finest treasures to your temples. 6 You sold the people of Judah and Jerusalem to the Greeks to remove them far from their own territory. 7 Look, I am about to rouse them up from the place where you sold them; I will bring retribution on your heads. 8 I will sell your sons and daughters into the hands of the people of Judah, and they will sell them to the Sabeans,[c] to a distant nation, for the Lord has spoken.

9 Proclaim this among the nations:
Prepare for holy war;
rouse the warriors;
let all the men of war advance and attack!
10 Beat your plows into swords
and your pruning knives into spears.
Let even the weakling say, “I am a warrior.”
11 Come quickly,[d] all you surrounding nations;
gather yourselves.
Bring down Your warriors there, Lord.
12 Let the nations be roused
and come to the Valley of Jehoshaphat,
for there I will sit down
to judge all the surrounding nations.
13 Swing the sickle
because the harvest is ripe.
Come and trample the grapes
because the winepress is full;
the wine vats overflow
because the wickedness of the nations is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the Day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and moon will grow dark, Luke 21:25-36 / Matthew 24:29 / Revelation 6:12-13
and the stars will cease their shining.
16 The Lord will roar from Zion
and raise His voice from Jerusalem;
heaven and earth will shake.
But the Lord will be a refuge for His people,
a stronghold for the Israelites
.

More Exegesis to come.....

27 And this will be My covenant with them[m]
when I take away their sins.[n]

This "Covenant/Promise" is towards Hardened Jews that Rejected Jesus. How can I be sure? Because the lead in verses and the following verses cannot be taken any other way! This is why Western Eschatologists would have this portion of scripture ripped out, if they could. This single chapter of Romans, undercuts 99 percent of all Western Eschatology. If Western Centric Eschatology was a tree, this single chapter of scripture rips up that tree by it's very "Roots" (Romans 11 Joke).

28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage,
Are members of the Body of Christ "Enemies of the Gospel"? It is to our advantage that we are not "Under the Book of the Law". But, it seems God has a purpose for those that are Under the Law (Jews that hold to Judaism).

but regarding election, they are loved because of the patriarchs,
Who is the Anti-Christ going to try to deceive more than anyone one else? Matthew 24:24 .... "If it were possible" This is where this chapter of the Bible becomes an INSTANT contention. There is a MASSIVE branch of SAVED (I said it, because biblically it is true) Christianity that has gone to GREAT theological effort, to claim that THE BODY OF CHRIST is THE ELECT. If this weren't biblically true, 80 percent of their Theological commentaries would be no better than kindling. So, whenever this topic is broached, this particular branch of theologians show up to poo poo all over this Chapter, because it exposes their itsy bitsy teenie weenie Theological BOO BOO. The Elect are Loved BECAUSE OF THE PATRIARCHS. That doesn't sound like the doctrine of Limited Atonement or the doctrine of Election. We don't claim the BLOOD OF THE PATRIARCHS. Hmmmm... Where is an example of a Patriarch saying something about this, in scripture? (Exodus 32:32) We even have an Apostle Echo Moses (Romans 9:3). If only that Apostles statement were close to this Chapter 11 within Romans so that we could verify this key theological point! Oh well, same book, same theological literary flow, but a massive 2 manmade inserted Chapter divisions away from this point. IF ONLY! Sigh

29 since God’s gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable.[o]
Why would God make "irrevocable" Gifts and Calling towards disobedient people? Exodus 34:6-7 Yeah, BUT, that's only one verse and we can say that is about the BOC, even if when read in context it is towards Literal Stiff Necked Israel. (What do two Tenons have to do with this?) Malachi 3:6 and again Hosea 13:14 (But Grip, Hs 13:14 is about Jesus dying for the BOC) Is it though? Hosea is literally about harlot ISRAEL, Unbelieving, Messiah Rejecting, Cheating on their Bride Groom (Matthew 19:1-12)(Matthew 16:4)(Cross References for Matthew 16:4)

30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience,
So, because of the Book of the Law, Gentiles once stood CONDEMNED. However, because of the very work that Jesus accomplished that removed the book of the Law from the Salvational equation, and placed those that bind to the book of the Law in "Current Disobedience", as they cling to their works of the Law, these Hardened Jews, instead of JESUS, which would bring them back into OBEDIENCE (John 6:29).

Who's the "As YOU once disobeyed" you? GENTILES Who is the their (through THEIR disobedience) Unbelieving JEWS/Israel

31 so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now[p] may receive mercy.
They, the Jews, are NOW in disobedience, which is the very Obedience (John 6:29) that brings us MERCY and them bound to "Disobedience".

Once Gentiles were removed from God as the Jews were able to be grasped by God and in the presence of God (Exodus 33:9 Ex 33:9 Cross Referenced), as now Unbelieving Jews are removed from God as Gentiles can now approach God through the very Son of God, God the Son (Hebrews 4:16) and have the very Presence of God within us (John 14:23 John 14:23 Cross Referenced)... and within this Mysterious framework that Paul is laying out, through Jesus Christ, beyond our CURRENT understanding, OR ELSE IT WOULDN'T be a MYSTERY to us, that involves a time AFTER THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES (Romans 11:25) Note, this Mystery occurs AFTER THE FULLNESS!


32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.
We are all imprisoned within DISOBEDIENCE (Galatians 3:22 in reference to the Book of the Law Deuteronomy 10-Deuteronomy 31:26).... Israel isn't under the Authority of Jesus, YET! The BOC isn't grafted within ISRAEL, YET, because we are GRAFTED within JESUS, who HASN"T Joined Himself to LITERAL ISRAEL, YET! The final Grafting occurs at a SPECIAL DAY OF THE LORD (Romans 11:25)... therefore.... the Mercy that the Gentiles didn't expect, will at an appointed time be offered to those Loved because of the Patriarchs, IE THEIR BLOODLINE.

A Hymn of Praise

33 Oh, the depth of the riches
both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments
and untraceable His ways!

Surprise, We Don't Comprehend God's depth of just how Merciful and Amazing He really is, try as hard as we may!

34 For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been His counselor?
35 Or who has ever first given to Him,
and has to be repaid?[q]
36 For from Him and through Him
and to Him are all things.
To Him be the glory forever. Amen.
We are forgiven Debtors! God has no Debt to ANYONE! Who are we to say who God can and cannot forgive?
 
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Slibhim has your stopping by "temporarily" concluded ?

I know some things take time. Come back then when you've thought about
my question on
Isaiah 53:8

By oppression and by judgment He
[Israel?] was taken away; and as for His generation, who among them had the thought that He [Israel?] was cut off out of the land of the living for the transgression of my people
[Israel ??] to whom the stroke was due? (v.8)

If the disciplining stroke was due Israel how can Israel step in and receive it as a substitute for itself ?
 
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