Ohio pastor arraigned after being charged for housing homeless at church

[seeking.IAM]

Many churches are struggling just to keep the lights on, and have no additional resources to be renting other buildings.

 

[enoob57]

It is our responsibility to obey the laws of the land... Churches should look to that obedience to see if they are in violation.. if they would be then work to relocate Church so they can do unto The Lord both for the poor and obedience to His Word...

 

[probinson]

Like, (I dunno), using church resources to rent out several houses and house homeless people in those?

Oh hey, look! An Idea!!

What if the church doesn't have the resources to rent out several houses?

 

[probinson]

If you're saying the only possible option is a bad option, then I simply can't agree.

Who says it's a bad option? It's certainly preferable to having people freezing outside.

There has to be something they can do.

What would that be? The only thing that helps homeless in freezing cold temperatures is a warm place to go. That is the church. Now I know you and others think they should just "rent several houses", but as has been pointed out, many churches just barely clear the basic operating expenses. This is why I said in an earlier post you seem detached from reality. The reality is that a small church like Dad's Place almost certainly does not have the resources to rent or buy another facility.

So what can they do to help people who are freezing besides opening their doors to let them have a warm place to stay?

 

[probinson]

This isn't about using the church as an emergency shelter during extreme weather events (i.e. when people are actually at risk of freezing to death). That's something that cities are generally okay with

Apparently not the police in Bryan, OH. If they had their way, Dad's place would already be closed to the homeless and the homeless people who were there would have certainly been at risk of freezing to death.

However, Avell was running Dad's Place as a permanent overflow shelter year-round.

This started in November. So it has not been "year-round". At least not yet.

That's not okay - past the immediate emergency stage,

Not sure why you don't think homelesseness in general isn't an "emergency". Even if the weather is perfect, homeless people are still at many very real risks.

it's his responsibility to make sure that he is housing people correctly and legally.

The police don't even want him to feed people there.

That means complying with zoning laws (or applying for a variance) and making sure the building is up to code.

Maybe that will happen. Maybe it's cost-prohibitive. But I'm just amazed at the number of people who prioritize compliance with zoning laws over people's wellbeing.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Apparently not the police in Bryan, OH. If they had their way, Dad's place would already be closed to the homeless and the homeless people who were there would have certainly been at risk of freezing to death.

Apparently, he had been operating in just that way before without complaint, so spare me the hysterics.

This started in November. So it has not been "year-round". At least not yet.

He was ordered to stop in November. Avell himself states that they made the decision to open the church 24/7 - in other words, year-round - in March of last year. The fact that he hasn't been operating in that manner for a year yet is irrelevant.

Maybe that will happen. Maybe it's cost-prohibitive. But I'm just amazed at the number of people who prioritize compliance with zoning laws over people's wellbeing.

Zoning laws are a component of people's wellbeing. Or do you want someone to be able to build a nightclub right next to your house? How about a scrapyard? Or a chemical plant?

 

[probinson]

Apparently, he had been operating in just that way before without complaint, so spare me the hysterics.

If the complaint would have been enforced and Dad's Place was not open, these people would be out in the cold.

Zoning laws are a component of people's wellbeing. Or do you want someone to be able to build a nightclub right next to your house? How about a scrapyard? Or a chemical plant?

Speaking of hysterics...

 

[seeking.IAM]

If we didn't live in a world where security was necessary, churches should be open 24/7 to all. To sit. To pray. To be still and know He is God. To get warm.

I was once found myself at an all-day meeting in downtown Indianapolis on Ash Wednesday. Our allotted lunch time allowed me to go to the Episcopal Cathedral on Monument Circle for an Ash Wednesday service. As the assembly gathered for the service, about 15 homeless persons who had been sleeping on the pews roused. Some sat up and stayed for Mass. Some left and returned after the benediction. But I thought this is what the Church should be. Jesus said, "If you have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me." "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

 

[RocksInMyHead]

If the complaint would have been enforced and Dad's Place was not open, these people would be out in the cold.

And if Dad's Place had followed the law, there would have been no complaint to enforce.

Speaking of hysterics...

It's hysterical to point out the purpose of zoning laws? The fact of the matter is that there's a shelter literally next door that manages to comply with all zoning regulations, so it's not like the city gave Avell an impossible task.

 

[probinson]

And if Dad's Place had followed the law, there would have been no complaint to enforce.

Right. Because the homeless would have had no place to go, and therefore would have been out in the freezing cold.

It's hysterical to point out the purpose of zoning laws?

It's hysterical to pretend like the proposition of building chemical plants next door to residential homes is in any way comparable to a church providing a warm place for the homeless in freezing temperatures.

The fact of the matter is that there's a shelter literally next door that manages to comply with all zoning regulations, so it's not like the city gave Avell an impossible task.

And that shelter appreciates what the church is doing because they lack the capacity to help everyone that needs helped.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Right. Because the homeless would have had no place to go, and therefore would have been out in the freezing cold.

Where did I say that following the law would mean closing? As I already pointed out, the neighboring shelter is able to comply with zoning and fire regulations, so there's no reason why Dad's Place wouldn't have been able to do the same. They had all summer to determine what was needed to make sure they were up to code before the "freezing cold" set in.

It's hysterical to pretend like the proposition of building chemical plants next door to residential homes is in any way comparable to a church providing a warm place for the homeless in freezing temperatures.

Good thing I didn't do that then. The implication of your statement - "But I'm just amazed at the number of people who prioritize compliance with zoning laws over people's wellbeing." - is that zoning laws do not contribute to wellbeing. I simply pointed out some ways in which zoning laws do contribute to wellbeing. Selectively ignoring them just because a particular case tugs on your heartstrings is a really bad precedent to set.

And that shelter appreciates what the church is doing because they lack the capacity to help everyone that needs helped.

I'm sure they'd appreciate it more if the church was able to comply with the regulations - that would remove the uncertainty associated with the current situation.

 

[SimplyMe]

Why are you having such a hard time answering the question? What if the church CANNOT do anything else? Then what?

The Church couldn't have applied for a change in the zoning? It seems that is an action the city was expecting the church to do, and that they church could likely do cheaply (likely just filing the required paperwork and having it approved by the city council). I think this is a key point that keeps being glossed over -- it was something the church could do. And, at that point, had the city refused to change the zoning, you then have a stronger claim of discrimination.

Instead, we have a church warned of the violations and told to fix the issue that then appears to completely ignore the notice the city gave them.

 

[Hank77]

The reality is that a small church like Dad's Place almost certainly does not have the resources to rent or buy another facility.

So what can they do to help people who are freezing besides opening their doors to let them have a warm place to stay?

Retailers such as Cabela's, Walmart, and Sports Warehouse, etc, etc. give thousands/ millions to charity every year. I once asked Home Depot to donate all the paint primer to paint a church and I asked Lowe's to donate the paint, they agreed with no problems whatsoever.

This church could have approached retailers to donate tents, sleeping bags, and propane heaters. The people in the church could have allowed a couple of tents in each of their backyards.
They could have reached out on Facebook to people in the community to help them provide propane, etc.

 

[seeking.IAM]

This church could have approached retailers to donate tents, sleeping bags, and propane heaters. The people in the church could have allowed a couple of tents in each of their backyards.

Good theory but probably untenable. My HOA won't allow visiting grandchildren to spend one night camping out in grandpa's back yard. They would lose their mind over a raggedy homeless person. If you think they aren't going to like them down at the church, they certainly aren't going to like them across the fence in the neighbor's yard.

 

[Pommer]

What if the church doesn't have the resources to rent out several houses?

Then their consciences can be clear of “not doing anything” to relieve “the problem”.

 

[probinson]

Where did I say that following the law would mean closing? As I already pointed out, the neighboring shelter is able to comply with zoning and fire regulations, so there's no reason why Dad's Place wouldn't have been able to do the same. They had all summer to determine what was needed to make sure they were up to code before the "freezing cold" set in.

Not sure why "freezing cold" is in scare quotes. It's been downright COLD around these parts, particularly the last few weeks.

Good thing I didn't do that then.

Yes, yes you did. Hyperbole to the max.

The implication of your statement - "But I'm just amazed at the number of people who prioritize compliance with zoning laws over people's wellbeing." - is that zoning laws do not contribute to wellbeing.

And that's true when we're talking about whether or not people have a warm place to stay or not.

Should we:

1. Make sure we comply with zoning laws.
2. Provide a warm place for people who would otherwise freeze.

Some people's answer to this question has been rather disheartening to me.

 

[probinson]

The Church couldn't have applied for a change in the zoning? It seems that is an action the city was expecting the church to do, and that they church could likely do cheaply (likely just filing the required paperwork and having it approved by the city council). I think this is a key point that keeps being glossed over -- it was something the church could do. And, at that point, had the city refused to change the zoning, you then have a stronger claim of discrimination.

I suspect that there are other things that needed done besides filing paperwork in order to apply for and receive a zoning variance.

There are precious few details to this story. We have a statement from the police, an official complaint and an interview with the pastor. That's about it. It's hard to say what the church has or has not done or why the city felt it necessary to intervene in an attempt to kick the homeless out into the street. So we're all filling in the gaps in our heads. Some people seem more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the city government. But I've dealt with inept city government, which inevitably biases my position.

But at the end of the day, I simply cannot prioritize compliance with zoning laws over the wellbeing of people.

 

[probinson]

Retailers such as Cabela's, Walmart, and Sports Warehouse, etc, etc. give thousands/ millions to charity every year.

Why are you pretending that all of these corporate entities are just anxiously awaiting a church to ask them to give them free stuff?

I once asked Home Depot to donate all the paint primer to paint a church and I asked Lowe's to donate the paint, they agreed with no problems whatsoever.

We once had our local Walmart donate a bunch of cups and plates to a youth function.

Not sure what your point is.

This church could have approached retailers to donate tents, sleeping bags, and propane heaters. The people in the church could have allowed a couple of tents in each of their backyards.

Wind chills below zero, and you want people sleeping outside in tents next to blazing hot propane heaters? How is that any "safer" than being inside a warm building sleeping on the floor? And I'm sure it's against zoning violations to have people set up tent cities in their backyards. Just imagine the complaints from the neighbors.

They could have reached out on Facebook to people in the community to help them provide propane, etc.

What I find most fascinating about this discussion is that while this church is actively doing something to help these people, there are countless others sitting in their warm homes on the Internet doing nothing but criticizing.

 

[probinson]

Then their consciences can be clear of “not doing anything” to relieve “the problem”.

Meanwhile, the people will have no place warm to go. But hey, at least the zoning violations are being complied with.

 

[keith99]

Meanwhile, the people will have no place warm to go. But hey, at least the zoning violations are being complied with.

Well, there is the neighboring shelter that is complying with the law.