LDS LDS: Proxy Baptism -- Basis in the Bible.

[fatboys]

No one can definitively say that nothing of the NT was yet written. Obviously there was at least the book of Timothy because that statement is written in that book.

These were letters written to Timothy. The only writings that had been written was possibly the gospel according to Mark.

 

[Hammster]

These were letters written to Timothy. The only writings that had been written was possibly the gospel according to Mark.

2 Timothy was his last letter. That means there were 12 others from Paul that were in existence.

 

[Truthseeker1971]

Since the New Testament didn't exist when this was written which scripture do you think he was referring to?

The Old Testament and the gospels which were just beginning to circulate at that time.
All of the New Testament, regardless of whether or not it had been committed to paper by that time, is only an extension of the Old.

And by the time Revelation was written around AD 90 or so, the canon was closes and prophecy ended.
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

What is the book of Mormon but an attempt to ADD to God's word

 

[Tawhano]

Have some Hugh Nibley.

Should solve that one right quick.

The purpose of a discussion board on apologetics is for people to put forth a question or a premise and having others respond with their thoughts on the matter. It is customary that a rebuttal or answer to be in one’s own words with links to sources used to arrive at that conclusion. Simply responding to a post by supplying a link to another’s work and omitting any thoughts of their own on the subject is a confirmation that they have nothing to contribute to the topic.

I could supply a rebuttal to Hugh Nibley’s Baptism for the Dead in Ancient Times discourse but the man is no longer living and would be unavailable to comment on my remarks. So I am at a lost to understand why a link is provided to his work with the comment that it is sufficient to answer the premise presented to the OP. I read Hugh Nibley’s article some years back and re-read it again to refresh my memory of its contents. While it is an intellectual work by a learned man it is by no means factual; it is Hugh Nibley’s opinion based on his knowledge of the topic. Other scholars with equal knowledge and education disagree with Mr. Nibley on his interpretation of the ancient texts he cites as evidence for his conclusions. The majority of the sources cited by Mr. Nibley does not address the baptism of the dead at all but whether or not God would condemn those that are not baptized. At best, all one could conclude from the information in Mr. Nibley’s discourse is to say that ‘historically’ there were religions that practice the doctrine of baptism for the dead.

It is my firm belief that religion is the main culprit in clouding the truth. Who is to say whether the “early church fathers” were part of the Church ordained by God or simply a religious sect that interpreted the scriptures with their own understanding? If we confess that the Bible is the Word of God then this should be the measuring stick to gauge the truthfulness of other revelations or text found outside of the scriptures. If, on the other hand, the Bible has “been watered down and made to fit mans own mortal ideas of God” then any discussion which uses the scriptures as arguments, be it pro or con, is futile.

 

[fatboys]

2 Timothy was his last letter. That means there were 12 others from Paul that were in existence.

You missed my point or I didn't explain well enough. Paulnhad no idea what had been written with the exception of maybe Marks

 

[Hammster]

You missed my point or I didn't explain well enough. Paulnhad no idea what had been written with the exception of maybe Marks

Paul did not say that all scripture that he was aware of was God-breathed. He just said all scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Paul did not say that all scripture that he was aware of was God-breathed. He just said all scripture.

So scripture he was unaware of my be God-breathed?

 

[Hammster]

So scripture he was unaware of my be God-breathed?

All scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

All scripture.

Including those not yet written? (From Paul's time)

 

[Hammster]

Including those not yet written? (From Paul's time)

Yes. All scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes. All scripture.

And does scripture stop coming?

 

[Hammster]

And does scripture stop coming?

It has.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It has.

[ I was going to reply to this, but then realized how off topic it's become, so I'll leave it]

 

[Alla27]

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, " . . . if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.​

True, Paul didn't say "we" but he said "they".
Who are they? This is the question!
They are "some" to whom Paul was preaching the Gospel. They are Corinthians. See verse 12
12 now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
So, Paul talked to Corinthians. According to Paul some of them did not believe in resurrection of the dead.
It means that the rest among them believed in resurrection. So, those or they who believed in resurrection of the dead baptized for the dead.
One more thing. Why would Paul bring pagans as an example? It doesn't make too much sense.

 

[Tawhano]

True, Paul didn't say "we" but he said "they".
Who are they? This is the question!

I have to disagree with Alla27 on what is the question in this discussion. I don’t believe the answer to who “they” is favors either side of the argument. I believe it is more important to define what is meant by “for the dead” to correctly define the true meaning of this verse.

To ascertain the answer to that we must examine all of Paul’s letters to determine what his thoughts were on baptism.

(Rom 6:3-5) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Paul likened baptism as being buried with Christ. Christ died and baptism was an act of faith that we would also be buried in his death and resurrected as he was. Moreover Paul had this to say on faith:

(Jas 2:14-17) What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I therefore gather from these verses that baptism is a work produced by faith. We have faith that we will be resurrected in Christ and therefore show our faith by being baptism and therefore symbolically buried in his death. Peter has this to say about baptism saving you:

(1Pe 3:20-21) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is not what washes away your sins and saves you, but faith in God. Consider this passage in Alma:

Alma (Chapter 34)
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

Verse 34 says it all. No amount of preaching or earthy ordinances will save those who leave this world in unbelief. In summary I cannot see how the ordinance of being baptized for those departed will accomplish the goal of saving them.

 

[Alla27]

Respectfully I have to disagree with you. And this is why. Paul was talking about resurrection of those who physically died. According to Paul some among people to whom he preached did not believe that when people die they will live again. Some among those people didn't believe that dead will be resurrected like Jesus Christ resurrected after He died on the cross.
So Paul was making a point: if dead do not resurrect at all (like Jesus Christ was resurrected) then why some among you(they) do baptism for the dead? If dead do not resurrected like Jesus Christ did then what is the point to do baptism FOR them?

 

[Tawhano]

Thank you for your response Alla27. I was beginning to think my post were being blocked as nobody has yet responded to my other posts. I understood your position before I posted and read the comments and scriptures you believed supports your view. However since you added nothing more than you already posted or made any rebuttal to the scriptures I sourced for my belief it is difficult to supply any further rebuttal.

Quite often I see debates that take the form of one side posting scriptures and the opposing side simply posting more scriptures as if to indicate that their scriptures trumps the others. This is not sound rebuttal nor does it add to the discussion. If you post scriptures as rebuttal to another post that included scriptures it then becomes your burden to either reconcile the scriptures you use with those you are debating or show where the poster was incorrect in their understanding of the scriptures they used.

I took the approach that the scripture being used to support baptism for the dead as being taken out of context and therefore supplied other scriptures that I reconciled with the verses in Corinthians. The example I used was to show where Christ being dead was the topic being discussed and therefore it was plausible that the dead was in reference to him. I then supplied other scriptures, and because you are Mormon I used some from the Book of Mormon, to show how being baptized in proxy for someone who passed away didn’t follow the teaching about baptism.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I then supplied other scriptures, and because you are Mormon I used some from the Book of Mormon

You did? I must have missed it, my bad. Could you give me the post #?

 

[ewq1938]

So Paul was making a point: if dead do not resurrect at all (like Jesus Christ was resurrected) then why some among you(they) do baptism for the dead? If dead do not resurrected like Jesus Christ did then what is the point to do baptism FOR them?

He wasn't talking about THEM, he was talking about being baptised for Him, Christ:

So Paul was making a point: if dead do not resurrect at all (like Jesus Christ was resurrected) then why some among you (they) get baptised a dead Messiah? If dead will not be resurrected like Jesus Christ was then what is the point to get baptised FOR Him?

Act_8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Co 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Co 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
1Co 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
1Co 15:11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for A DEAD MESSIAH, if the dead WHO WERE BAPTISED IN HIS NAME rise not at all? why are they then baptized for A DEAD MESSIAH?
1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? (WHY RISK OUR LIVES IF NO ONE RESURRECTS?)
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (not die daily but is in danger of dying daily)

 

[ewq1938]

Thank you for your response Alla27. I was beginning to think my post were being blocked as nobody has yet responded to my other posts.

Technically this forum is for Christians to discuss with a non-Christian. Christians aren't supposed to have separate discussions among themselves (if I understand the rules properly) so it's normal if you didn't get any responses from fellow Christians.