LDS LDS: No Official Apology for Racism of the Past

[drstevej]

So blacks and whites are different species?

 

[Hammster]

So blacks and whites are different species?

If we are to believe JS. But I'm sure we are taking it out of context in some way.

 

[drstevej]

"Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, their intelligence stunted, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.”

- Official LDS Church manual, The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157

 

[withwonderingawe]

When Joseph Smith was saying black men were as intelligent as white men and working out away to free the slaves the Baptist , Methodist and Presbyterians were splitting up over slavery,

This is how the rest of Christian America viewed the blacks;

Black people in America according to the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1911):

evolutionary plane: low: measurements of their skulls and bones show that they are closer to apes than to white people – though white people do have more apelike hair.

hair: more like wool than “true hair”.

intelligence: “the mental inferiority of the negro to the white or yellow races is a fact”. Black children were “sharp, intelligent and full of vivacity, but on approaching the adult period a gradual change set in. The intellect seemed to become clouded, animation giving place to a sort of lethargy, briskness yielding to indolence. ” Causes:

*psychological: “the arrest or even deterioration in mental development is no doubt very largely due to the fact that after puberty sexual matters take the first place in the negro’s life and thoughts.”

*physical: “the growth of the brain is … arrested by the premature closing of the cranial sutures and lateral pressure of the frontal bone.”

*evolutionary: “the easy conditions of tropical life and the fertility of the soil have reduced the struggle for existence to a minimum.”

better than whites: “negroes far surpass white men in acuteness of vision, hearing, sense of direction and topography.”

temperament: “very similar to that of a child, normally good-natured and cheerful, but subject to sudden fits of emotion and passion during which he is capable of performing acts of singular atrocity, impressionable, vain, but often exhibiting in the capacity of servant a dog-like fidelity which has stood the supreme test.”

morals: Crime rate is the “best available index of moral progress or retrogression”. In 1904 in the South blacks were 5.5 times more likely to be put in prison than whites; in the North, 9 times. Records show that the black crime rate had dropped considerably since 1890, but that is probably a mistake. Also keep in mind that “the comparative infrequency of crime among slaves, even if it existed, is no proof of the absence of criminal tendencies and actions.”

on the loss of the vote in the South: “On the part of the overwhelming majority of negroes this practical disfranchisement has aroused no protest, while it has tended to improve the government…”

wealth: In 1904 the average black person had a wealth of $34 (58 crowns). For whites in 1900 it was $1320 (2,112 crowns) or 39 times more.
education: half can read, up from 8% for slaves. In the South for every $1.00 spent on a white student, $0.40 is spent on a black student.

slavery: it civilized blacks and “furnished industrial training to many slaves”.

freedom: the lowest tenth is “perhaps … worse off than in slavery.” It is “too early to say” whether blacks will be “serviceable” and remain “a vital and essential part of the life of the nation”, as they were as slaves.

https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/black-people-according-to-the-1911-britannica/

 

[Hammster]

Non sequitur.

 

[withwonderingawe]

"Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, their intelligence stunted, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.”

- Official LDS Church manual, The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157

Another deception, that quote was made in 1868 when the Instructor was privately owned. The Church didn't own it until 1901, 33 years after the racist statements were made. However George Q Cannon did own it and is named as editor, he was an also an apostle. Someone named George Reynolds wrote the article, he shows a typical amount of ignorance and bigotry for his age and cultural back ground. It is his opinion and not an official statement by the Church.

 

[Hammster]

It looks like we have one Mormon saying they weren't racist, and another saying they were, but it wasn't really racism since God told them to do it.

That clears it up.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Once again you are taking Joseph's quote out of context, Me thinks you do not read what we post so perhaps we should start to ignore you, I mean turn about is fair play!!!!

How can one take calling blacks the seed of Cain and saying anyone who procreates with a black person will die on the spot. That obviously is not true.

 

[Ironhold]

Question Thirteenth. 'Are the Mormons abolitionists?' No, unless delivering the people from priestcraft, and the priests from the power of Satan, should be considered abolition. But we do not believe in setting the negroes free.

Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Elders' Journal, July 1838.

In April of 1836, Joseph Smith wrote an editorial in which he expressed the view that the abolitionists of his day were going about everything in the wrong fashion, thereby provoking needless tensions and even hostilities between the North and the South.

Given this, it would appear that Smith's statement in 1838 is nothing more than an attempt to distance himself from the larger abolition movement, which was becoming increasingly controversial and increasingly militant.

 

[withwonderingawe]

How can one take calling blacks the seed of Cain and saying anyone who procreates with a black person will die on the spot. That obviously is not true.

I want to thank you for really bringing that quote to my attention, I've never really looked at because BY was a racist in his own way, he wasn't consistent in his racism. I took the time to actually read the talk and again it's not saying what Steve wants you to believe it says;

Young was an Old Testament kind of guy, he knew it inside and out. As an example when Joseph Smith died he had the different members of Council of the Twelve marry Joseph’s plural wives much like David married Saul’s wives. It was away to ensure Saul’s wives and children were cared for. He’s using the same kind of Old Testament concept here too. He was also a bull in a china shop often using hard words and extreme examples to get his point across.

He’s talking about the on going civil war and God’s anger toward the United states in general and he seems to be using this thing about mixing seed merely as an example of what happens when one breaks a covenant. .

“The rank, rabid abolitionists, whom I call black-hearted Republicans, have set the whole national fabric on fire. Do you know this, Democrats? They have kindled the fire that is raging now from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. I am no abolitionist, neither am I a proslavery man; I hate some of their principles and especially some of their conduct, as I do the gates of hell…..Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so. The nations of the earth have transgressed every law that God has given, they have changed the ordinances and broken every covenant made with the fathers, ….

By “the chosen seed” he meant the Jews or those living the Law of Moses and I believe he was referring to the following passage.

Deut 7 “… the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites,… Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

In other words if they married anyone out of the covenant they would be destroyed suddenly. (see also Josh 3, and any one committing adultery or breaking a marriage covenant was stoned on the spot) Like Israel broke this Mosaic Law the Nations of the world have also broken the laws God has given them, as he goes on here it's obvious he means the Ten Commandments and thou shalt not kill. But he did not intend that if any white Gentile marrying a black person would be killed on the spot.

(More BY)….I would like the President of the United States and all the world to hear this….(he quotes a passage from Micah 4) God rules in the armies of Heaven and does his pleasure upon the earth, and no man can help it. Who can stay the hand of Jehovah, or turn aside the providences of the Almighty? I say to all men and all women, submit to God, to his ordinances and to His rule; serve Him, and cease your quarrelling, and stay the shedding of each other's blood.

If the Government of the United States, in Congress assembled, had the right to pass an anti-polygamy bill, they had also the right to pass a law that slaves should not be abused as they have been; they had also a right to make a law that negroes should be used like human beings, and not worse than dumb brutes. For their abuse of that race, the whites will be cursed, unless they repent.

I am neither an abolitionist nor a pro-slavery man. If I could have been influenced by private injury to choose one side in preference to the other, I should certainly be against the pro-slavery side of the question, for it was pro-slavery men that pointed the bayonet at me and my brethren in Missouri, and said, “Damn you we will kill you.” I have not much love for them, only in the Gospel. I would cause them to repent, if I could, and make them good men and a good community. I have no fellowship for their avarice, blindness, and ungodly actions. To be great, is to be good before the Heavens and before all good men. I will not fellowship the wicked in their sins, so help me God.”

He seems to hold both sides accountable for the war and blood shed.

In any case I don’t think he intended to say what many have implied.

He was using the Old Testament threat of God destroying “thee suddenly” those that broken the marriage covenant with the United States breaking God’s commandment by their treatment of the black slaves and the on going war causing the shedding of blood. 620,000 men died during that war and it all could have been avoided if they had just listened to Joseph Smith.

 

[Hammster]

If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot.

By “the chosen seed” he meant the Jews or those living the Law of Moses and I believe he was referring to the following passage.

But he did not intend that if any white Gentile marrying a black person would be killed on the spot.

Your commentary doesn't jive with what he said.

 

[Hammster]

And not being pro-slavery did not automatically make him pro-black Gentile.

 

[fatboys]

You are using a double standard here. The church was in survival mode. They had just been driven out of their homes. Many saints died because they believed in a restoration. The United States had sent an army to Utah because of rumor to arrest and put down an unrulely people. It was false. Brigham had his biases as do we all. If you are going to judge him make sure you have all the facts. Don't just read selected out of context statements. If you were put under such a microscope I know you wouldn't fair any better.

 

[Hammster]

You are using a double standard here. The church was in survival mode. They had just been driven out of their homes. Many saints died because they believed in a restoration. The United States had sent an army to Utah because of rumor to arrest and put down an unrulely people. It was false. Brigham had his biases as do we all. If you are going to judge him make sure you have all the facts. Don't just read selected out of context statements. If you were put under such a microscope I know you wouldn't fair any better.

I read what was posted by a Mormon. If it's out of context, that's not my fault.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Your commentary doesn't jive with what he said.

I'm editing here BY started the talk off with this line;
"I have also in my mind the condition of the Christian world, as well as the revealed religion of the Savior; also the Jewish as the forerunner of the Christian religion...." So that was on his mind.


If you had lived in those days and sat in the Tabernacle listening to him for a few weeks you would have picked up on his use of words.

Gen 17
" 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

 

[Zosimus]

Deleted by poster.