It would seem as if concerns about RFK have flipped again...

Hans Blaster

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Can you clarify a little more what you mean by "fantasy epistemology"?
How about "persistent belief in the demonstrably unreal"?

OK, that's technically not an epistemology, but a behavior. (I'll mention conspiracy theory below.)

In a practical sense, certain other ideologies (that are considered mainstream political issues and non-controversial in their respective camps) could check some of the same boxes as conspiracy theories in that many are speculative, non-falsifiable in the eyes of the adherents, and can't be definitively proven or disproven through hard facts and data.

Frankly, I think it is more about the damage to reasoning and thinking skills. There are even some demonstrably wrong beliefs that don't necessarily lead to bad epistemology, including religious beliefs.

Take the claim that the Earth is young. It is demonstrably wrong, and even being a YEC doesn't necessarily break ones ability to reason about other things. Though it does, when dogmatically held to and held as an important "fact", lead some down this bad path to conspiratorial thinking about science (first evolutionary biology and geology, then other sciences. In the worst cases (and I've seen a few around somewhere...) a completely false view of the world forms where science is a cabal, scam, and conspiracy. For others, this can start with vaccine skepticism and end thinking the medical profession is a scam out to kill you.

Certain economic ideologies come to mind in that regard.

The utopian socialist/Marxist form seems to fit in this category well. It seems to someone who has not studied it deeply that it fails to account for certain unsavory human behaviors like greed, sloth, and social hierarchy and quickly devolves in to force to impose the equality that sharing does not bring. I'm sure there is some similar failure in unrestricted capitalism to account for behaviors or consequences that I'm missing right now.

And there's even a little bit of the "there's these shadowy power brokers pulling the strings" mentalities for the various economic ideologies as well (which is one of the hallmarks of what we'd call "conspiracy theories")
And it's not really the particular ideologies, but the people who get trapped in the conspiracy rabbit holes that break their thinking.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Back when he first announced, the prevailing theory among Republicans was that he'd split the democratic vote.

Democrats, at that time, largely rejected/downplayed that notion, and suggested that due to his stances on Ukraine and vaccines, he'd pull more away from Republicans (and cited selectively chosen polls to support that theory)

It now appears that the script has flipped, and some left-leaning strategists and outlets, are now expressing concerns about RFK Jr. spoiling the election for Biden due to his selection of running mate.


Per the NY Times:
This week, the Democratic National Committee formed a unit to push back against third-party candidates and independents. At the same time, a number of Biden allies have formed a super PAC called Clear Choice, which plans to do the same, signaling the seriousness of the potential impact of an outsider candidate.

One such candidate, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., is polling above 10 percent in national surveys and is well known for his family lineage.

Per Vox:
Kennedy is currently averaging about 12 percent in the polls, according to RealClearPolling. Celinda Lake, a pollster for President Joe Biden’s 2020 campaign who continues to work with the Democratic National Committee, said that’s a worrying signal for Biden, based on polling and focus groups her firm has been conducting that suggest Kennedy will pull voters from Biden.




And it would seem those concerns were amplified by his running mate selection. He picked a philanthropist, former Democratic donor, and wealthy activist who's focused on causes of women's reproductive rights, criminal justice reform, and environmentalism.

The fact that Biden's PAC and DNC operatives are forming task forces to squash independent candidates, and putting out websites to smear RFK, it doesn't sound like the DNC is quite as confident in their earlier assertion of "nothing to worry about, he'll pull more votes away from Trump"



I think my original theory still holds up...which was that the farther and farther removed we get from the covid pandemic, the less of a deal-breaker the anti-vaxxer aspect becomes, and at the end of the day, despite his vaccine attitudes, an anti-war, pro-gay rights, environmentalist is going to pull more votes from the left than from the right. (even more true now that he has a wealthy women's reproductive rights advocate at his side as his running mate during a time when abortion is quite the hot button issue)

I think it's difficult to tell...but if I were betting, I'd probably agree.

Libertarians aren't exactly stoked on Trump...or their own nominee.
 
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Ana the Ist

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How about "persistent belief in the demonstrably unreal"?

OK, that's technically not an epistemology, but a behavior. (I'll mention conspiracy theory below.)

Conspiracy theories.


Frankly, I think it is more about the damage to reasoning and thinking skills. There are even some demonstrably wrong beliefs that don't necessarily lead to bad epistemology, including religious beliefs.

Sure...when your explanation of the world involves lizard people on the moon or extra-dimensional demons....you've sort of lost the plot. There's some attraction to the idea of esoteric knowledge that is impairing otherwise reasonable thinking.


Take the claim that the Earth is young. It is demonstrably wrong, and even being a YEC doesn't necessarily break ones ability to reason about other things. Though it does, when dogmatically held to and held as an important "fact", lead some down this bad path to conspiratorial thinking about science (first evolutionary biology and geology, then other sciences. In the worst cases (and I've seen a few around somewhere...) a completely false view of the world forms where science is a cabal, scam, and conspiracy. For others, this can start with vaccine skepticism and end thinking the medical profession is a scam out to kill you.



The utopian socialist/Marxist form seems to fit in this category well. It seems to someone who has not studied it deeply that it fails to account for certain unsavory human behaviors like greed, sloth, and social hierarchy and quickly devolves in to force to impose the equality that sharing does not bring. I'm sure there is some similar failure in unrestricted capitalism to account for behaviors or consequences that I'm missing right now.


And it's not really the particular ideologies, but the people who get trapped in the conspiracy rabbit holes that break their thinking.

And yet...conspiracies exist. They aren't fictional, they're real, and have ample evidence. From Project Bluebird, to MKUltra, to the Edgewood Arsenal, to Snowden, to Epstein and more beyond count....at no point in the last 100 years has our own government stopped all chicanery and played by the rules with its own people.

So in defense of the "conspiracy theories" they aren't always wrong, and it takes another sort of blind irrational thinking to imagine our government has stopped engaging in them.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I think it's difficult to tell...but if I were betting, I'd probably agree.

Libertarians aren't exactly stoked on Trump...or their own nominee.
I think the tone of some of the articles I linked is a bit troubling.

The one I linked that said "will third parties doom democracy" carries the tone of something bordering on emotional blackmail.

If a person doesn't like either of the two main options and opts to go with someone different (or make a third party run themselves), "you're complicit in potentially destroying democracy because that could cause the other guy (we don't like) to win"

Sort of a "well, WE say this other guy is so dangerous, that the only moral and decent thing for you to do is abandon half of your principles and vote for our guy so that other guy doesn't win, so if you come up with an Option C, just keep it to yourself"

...which to me, presents a more dire picture about our democracy than the scenario of "the bad guy" winning because of the spoiler effect of a third party candidate.


If there's this construct in which it's "socially unacceptable" to vote for the Option C who you really like, because the Option A & B people are afraid it'll split their teams' votes, then the thing people are worried about is already happening to a degree. That's not a stellar democracy if people voting for their first choice is going to be portrayed as a "problem" and the power-brokers (media outlets, pundits, campaign financiers) are going to pull every lever they can to emotionally manipulate people back into the two-party ecosystem.

To me, that's a symptom of the DNC and RNC asking the wrong questions.
Instead of "how can we manipulate people out of voting for third parties so it doesn't split our votes?"
They should be asking "how can we get more people to vote for us because they actually want to?"

Seems like the obvious one would be candidate quality. They should look back at the election cycles in which third parties had virtually no presence to speak of, and pick D & R candidates like them.

The Libertarians and Greens typically only have a noteworthy presence in election cycles where the candidate quality is poor in the two main parties.

People know the names of the LP and G candidates in the 2016 and 2020 election cycles... most wouldn't be able to tell you who they were for the 2008 and 2012 election cycles without Googling it (because Obama, Romney, and McCain were all respectable enough candidates that covered enough of the Overton Window that most people didn't feel compelled to look for other options)
 
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Ana the Ist

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I think the tone of some of the articles I linked is a bit troubling.

Hey man...I've found the tone of more articles than I can count from about 2014 on a little bit troubling.

The effect of independent journalism on mainstream journalism has been an increasingly biased and distorted narrative being inserted both into articles and editorial pieces to cater to specific demographics.


The one I linked that said "will third parties doom democracy" carries the tone of something bordering on emotional blackmail.

And intellectually dishonest. Voting for someone is democracy....the only time it isn't is when there's only one party or no real choice apart from the predetermined victor.



If a person doesn't like either of the two main options and opts to go with someone different (or make a third party run themselves), "you're complicit in potentially destroying democracy because that could cause the other guy (we don't like) to win"

Well...that's not exactly a new message. It's been around since at least 2016. It may not have been a drum the media beated as consistently and loudly as it does now....but back then nobody on the left really believed "the other guy" could win.

It's a troubling trend to be sure....but secondary in my mind to the legal persecution of candidates who are campaigning. That's actually a threat to democracy. It's the sort of tactic Putin is known for.



Sort of a "well, WE say this other guy is so dangerous, that the only moral and decent thing for you to do is abandon half of your principles and vote for our guy so that other guy doesn't win, so if you come up with an Option C, just keep it to yourself"

I recall during the 2020 campaign pointing out the obvious bias of an article reviewing a Democratic Party debate...in favor of Kamala Harris. It wasn't labeled an "editorial" but rather masquerading as "political analysis" which sounds much more authoritative and factual than mere opinion. When the person posting asked "what bias" I went through sentence by sentence describing Harris' performance and how each used positive terms and adjectives and none were negative....and then showed the others.

I don't recall if it was WaPo or NYT but it was quite literally political propaganda being presented as news.


...which to me, presents a more dire picture about our democracy than the scenario of "the bad guy" winning because of the spoiler effect of a third party candidate.

We're in a bit of a rough spot for multiple reasons. If I had to sum it up....the information age, and again independent journalism, has exposed a level of corruption that perhaps the general public had previously suspected but were uncertain about.

Nowadays, we can quite literally look up the net worth of the Clintons for example.....and see how 2 public servants who have never run a business or worked another job (apart from their "charity") are magically worth tens of millions of dollars (maybe over 100 at this point, I haven't checked in awhile) and it's difficult to conclude that career politicians are representing the people.


If there's this construct in which it's "socially unacceptable" to vote for the Option C who you really like, because the Option A & B people are afraid it'll split their teams' votes, then the thing people are worried about is already happening to a degree.

Sure. You didn't hear these dire warnings about the "future of democracy" when Ross Perot was on the list of options.

Again though....as concerning as the progandistic nature of journalism has become....I have more concern when lawsuits are filed to keep a candidate off the ballot based on an obscure law written specifically about civil war era candidates. I read briefly that Biden's campaign team screwed up badly and he wasn't on the ballot in Ohio....not because of lawsuits, just sheer incompetence. If the legal system is bending over backwards to squeeze a candidate on the ballot....and another off....we have more trouble to worry about than the news.


That's not a stellar democracy if people voting for their first choice is going to be portrayed as a "problem" and the power-brokers (media outlets, pundits, campaign financiers) are going to pull every lever they can to emotionally manipulate people back into the two-party ecosystem.

I still recall a rather sober and serious analysis of why Hillary lost in 2016 that looked at everything from adopting a similar strategy to Obama, ostracizing working class white men, lack of campaigning in rural and more hotly contested states, third party options that many found more attractive, and of course....overconfidence in the outcome.....

Then about a month or two later....this sort of analysis disappeared almost entirely for a much simpler explanation....white supremacy. I sometimes wonder if the guy who wrote that article still has a job.


To me, that's a symptom of the DNC and RNC asking the wrong questions.
Instead of "how can we manipulate people out of voting for third parties so it doesn't split our votes?"
They should be asking "how can we get more people to vote for us because they actually want to?"

We've sort of come to accept the idiomatic belief presented in an episode of South Park that the choice is always "blank sandwich or giant douche".

It doesn't have to be....and it certainly shouldn't be. I don't think anyone believes that we're going to see a living saint run for office....but someone genuinely interested in improving the lives of the citizens of the nation would be nice.


Seems like the obvious one would be candidate quality. They should look back at the election cycles in which third parties had virtually no presence to speak of, and pick D & R candidates like them.

The left and right are experiencing very different sorts of problems with candidate options.

The right's problem is actually pretty simple....authenticity. They got stuck with Trump despite throwing 15 other options in 2016 because the 15 other options essentially gave the public the same song and dance as the right presented for the previous 5 elections. A politician who espouses positions they either cannot deliver on or won't even attempt to deliver on. The voter base lost faith in the traditional right wing narrative....and took a former Democrat (yes, Trump previously supported democrats and voted for them) who was openly against war.

The Democratic Party however has adopted a completely different ideology from the big tent, diverse opinions, middle/working class advocacy of its traditional party....for an ideologically rigid, grievance based, moralizing identity politics approach based on the superficial characteristics like sex, race, sexual orientation, and minority status....which may seem to be effective at casting a wide net, it lacks any sort of central values which those under the net agree upon. One need only look at college campuses to see the "queers for palestine" to realize the problem. Feminist activists and black activists don't have the same values. Muslim activists and gay activists don't have the same values. Trans activists and nearly any other kind of activists don't share the same values. When they get a seat at the table....they don't appear to agree on much. It could be the prelude to a larger fracturing of the party into genuinely distinct parties with different values....or it is merely a bad political strategy that lacked the foresight to understand the difficulty of a candidate who can appeal to all these subgroups.

They ran Biden because they had this problem in 2020....and he had familiarity. People remembered him from the Obama administration and an appeal to returning to those times could win an election. That idea has pretty much been destroyed by the last 4 years. It's the same problem they had in 2020....but much like a Republican trying to sell the people a vision of returning to the 1950s....it's pretty obvious there's no going back to even a decade ago.


The Libertarians and Greens typically only have a noteworthy presence in election cycles where the candidate quality is poor in the two main parties.

I'm trying to think of the last libertarian I can recall anyone genuinely excited about. I think Nader was underrated as a Green candidate.


People know the names of the LP and G candidates in the 2016 and 2020 election cycles... most wouldn't be able to tell you who they were for the 2008 and 2012 election cycles without Googling it (because Obama, Romney, and McCain were all respectable enough candidates that covered enough of the Overton Window that most people didn't feel compelled to look for other options)

The thing that genuinely concerns me is the possibility of one of the candidates dying of a stroke or heart attack or something (Biden or Trump) and the log that either party would try to float to the top of the bowl in that situation being far too little too late.

It could be a completely natural death and either side may lose their cool regardless. It feels like a potential powderkeg situation that is a lot more possible than many realize.
 
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Fauci draws GOP ire but Kennedy may be making him a problem for Trump

Increasingly, Kennedy’s third-party White House bid is gaining traction by attacking Trump’s Covid-19 policies. He has, for example, accused Trump of “inventing lockdowns” and has questioned the safety of the Covid vaccine his administration helped develop.

Kennedy isn’t the first to use Fauci in an attempt to drive a wedge between Trump and his base. During the GOP primary, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis regularly invoked the longtime public health expert to attack Trump from the right, noting the former president gave Fauci a commendation on his last day in office.

Kennedy has also jabbed Trump over his reliance on Fauci, the former director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases who served on the White House Coronavirus Task Force. He recently launched a line of merchandise tying Trump and Fauci together.

“Vote for Trump/Fauci 2024,” the new campaign shirts say, along with a tongue-in-cheek slogan: “Give us another shot!”

1717538628241.png
 
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ThatRobGuy

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Fauci draws GOP ire but Kennedy may be making him a problem for Trump

Increasingly, Kennedy’s third-party White House bid is gaining traction by attacking Trump’s Covid-19 policies. He has, for example, accused Trump of “inventing lockdowns” and has questioned the safety of the Covid vaccine his administration helped develop.

Kennedy isn’t the first to use Fauci in an attempt to drive a wedge between Trump and his base. During the GOP primary, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis regularly invoked the longtime public health expert to attack Trump from the right, noting the former president gave Fauci a commendation on his last day in office.

Kennedy has also jabbed Trump over his reliance on Fauci, the former director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases who served on the White House Coronavirus Task Force. He recently launched a line of merchandise tying Trump and Fauci together.

“Vote for Trump/Fauci 2024,” the new campaign shirts say, along with a tongue-in-cheek slogan: “Give us another shot!”

View attachment 349438
In a purely political strategy sense, it is creative.
 
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